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Old 04-25-2019, 04:20 AM   #1
airon
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Default Midi CC Relative 1 sometimes adjusts wrong direction

Reaper 5.974 x64, Win7x64

A midi-learned control (MIDI Channel 14 CC 8 in this example),
set to RELATIVE 1 (127 = -1 , 1 = +1)

This controller, like others sends the following data the faster it is turned.

LEFT turn (slow to fast)
BD 08 7F , BD 08 7E , BD 08 7D , ... , BD 08 79 (fastest I've managed)


Similarly , turning RIGHT produces values such as
BD 08 01 to BD 08 08


The problem is that the parameter this is attached to is sometimes changes in the wrong direction, going up at times when I'm turning the knob in the direction to turn it down.


This was all verified with Midi OX. The values might be a little wonky, but some controllers do that, even to the 3F/41 variant.

Decreasing (3F) and increasing(41) the value from those standard values when you turn the controller faster, while also sending more messages.


I've had to turn those controllers really slowly to make them work well in Reaper because of this behaviour. Controllers like the Midi Fighter Twister behave nicely and never change that last byte this way, but some controllers do that.

I hope this is easy to fix.
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:13 AM   #2
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The controller in question is the Arturia Beatstep. The editor for the unit (MIDI Control Center) lists the behaviour of the knob as "Relative #2", which produces the documented bahaviour.


The other two modes (Relative #1 and #3) turned out to be useless in Reaper.


Maybe Reaper needs to learn some additional tricks.
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Old 04-25-2019, 07:21 AM   #3
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Hmm can you tell me which mode REAPER is set to, and which message being sent produces the wrong behavior? And also what action is it mapped to?
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Hmm can you tell me which mode REAPER is set to, and which message being sent produces the wrong behavior? And also what action is it mapped to?

Automation mode ? Latch and Latch Preview.

Control mode for the midi-learned parameter ?
Relative #1 127 , 1

One parameter of a compressor threshold is being controlled by a MIDI CC.


Here's a shot from MIDI OX of the data coming when I turn this knob left and right about twice per second.


Sorry if my data was poor in the first post.

When turning the knob more than fairly slowly, the parameter might move in the opposite direction briefly. I actually thought this might be an artifact of acceleration, but that's turned off.
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:46 PM   #5
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OK I get that it's a CC assigned in relative 1 to a parameter. Can you give me a synthetic test where it misbehaves? E.g. "send 0x7a and it increases rather than decreases" ?
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:29 AM   #6
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I setup a plugin with a parameter that is easily visible, such as the threshold of Renaissance Comp. It has a nice up/down action and a good spread of values graphically.

Then you turn the knob forward and backward. Slow at first, then try fast, then faster. Relative control is quite fine-grained, so it requires considerable turning on some parameters.

If a controller does not present static values for the CC controller (7F/01h for Reaper-Relative1 and 3F/41 for Reaper-Relative2 control), things go a little wonky.

Even just moving the knob fast sometimes produces the wonky behaviour. It'll be subtle, but you're not getting the desired behaviour as parameters either stop or move in the opposite direction a bit.



Shouldn't the rate of parameter change be independent of whether or not the value deviates from 127/01h or 3F/41h ? It should only depend on the rate of incoming messages, right ?



Here's a bunch of licecapped gifs of an example. All knobs are being turned left and right twice per second, though that's harder in the MFT unit(honey smooth knobs).

Arturia Beatstep, knob set to Relative 2 in its native editor,
Reaper midi-learn set to Relative 1


Renaissance Compressor - threshold
https://i.imgur.com/Ll8FbXV.gifv


Midi-OX capture of similar data (can't use Reaper and Midi-OX at the same time)
https://i.imgur.com/dWGU9Zs.gifv

Midifighter Twister, knob set to relative control, 3F/41h bahaviour
Reaper midi-learn set to Relative 2
Renaissance Compressor - threshold

https://i.imgur.com/s3ZHRYI.gifv
These knobs are a lot harder to turn and I slip a little sometimes, but they react perfectly.


Midi-OX capture of similar data. Static 3Fh and 41h values all the way.
https://i.imgur.com/Fy8H9ml.gifv

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Last edited by airon; 04-26-2019 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Shouldn't the rate of parameter change be independent of whether or not the value deviates from 127/01h or 3F/41h ? It should only depend on the rate of incoming messages, right ?
Not exactly. For Relative 1, 127 is -1, 126(7E) is -2, 125(7D) is -3, and 1 is +1, 2 is +2, 3 is +3, etc.

Does it do it with ReaComp? Perhaps you can also enable that input for MIDI input, route it to a track, put a JS MIDI logger on it, and make a big licecap of both windows receiving the input at once?

Edit: I just set up a loopback and tried sending tons of CCs of various values (from the MIDI editor) to a learn in relative 1 on ReaComp's threshold, everything worked as expected.

Last edited by Justin; 04-26-2019 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 04-28-2019, 11:40 AM   #8
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This is pointing to a possible screw up in the Arturia device I used, and possibly to the Waves plugin, though I did spot some possible anomalies in ReaComp, but it was too light to matter.


Perhaps it only happens because of the way I use the knob. I don't know.


I did try the method of inspecting the data in the JS Logger. Nothing out of the ordinary jumped out. Perhaps a jump from 7e to 7b as a value meant something, but I can't repeat it. I manage to get the occasional reversal of what I think I'm entering with the knob, but I have a hard time pinning that to any data.


Reaper does sometimes struggle to keep up when I change send volume levels, especially in Latch mode. My sessions are 30+ tracks of 50-100+ automated controls. The change sometimes happens after a second or two more gradually than I entered it. This does not happen with OSC on the same parameter, i.e. send volume.


Maybe that happens with some plugin parameters to a lesser degree.


It's not hurting my mixing experience all that much, though I might try a different relative mode on the Arturia for a future project. The raw tests with just one or two tracks have not yielded similar results yet. I'll give the larger sessions a try again tomorrow.
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Last edited by airon; 04-28-2019 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:24 AM   #9
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Small update.


On the compressor plugin Fabfilter Pro-C2 in minimal GUI mode, it became very obvious, so I carefully studied the JS Midi Logger data and found the culprit.


It is in fact wrong data coming from the Arturia.


Quite often the Arturia Beatstep will send relative control data going in the wrong direction. In other words I turn right to get
"BD 08 41" up to "BD 08 4C" or so(fastest I could go)
But randomly the unit will send out this instead
"BD 08 3F" up to "BD 08 39" or so(fastest I could go)
So the unit screws up.


Even more fun, Arturia won't let you request technical support without registering the device, which I can't do since my "Unlock code card" is likely in the bin. Serial yes, unlock code no. So I twittered the official channel but I'm not holding my breath.


I kinda hope it's a hardware bug, so I can take the unit back.


Download links:
Session and Beatstep config page export that I used to test this.
GIF Video (8MB). It can't show you which way I'm turning the knob.


The unit can be used if you turn the knob very slowly and keep an eye on the parameter readout which I keep in the parameter knobs of my MCP.


If Arturia posts anything, I'll relay that back here. Sorry to have wasted anyones time.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:02 AM   #10
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I have old StudioMix on which all encoders and jog wheel mix direction up to unusable level. I have tried trick that in software (flip the direction of following messages based on the first one and the time between messages), the outcome was better than without the trick but still not perfect.

Broken hardware is card to workaround in programs... I remember that cleaning and moving optical sender/receiver closer in a ball based mouse could prolong its life a bit. I have not tried to disassemble encoders jet
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:41 PM   #11
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This could be a firmware issue, but it might just be my piece of shit unit :P .


I still have six months of warranty on it. Worth a try if nothing else pans out I guess.
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:49 AM   #12
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Further study of the monitor data in both Reaper and the Midi Control Center of Arturia(it has a midi monitor) revealed that only specific knobs have these problems.


It seems unlikely that encoders can wear out in that quickly. I've had these problems from the start.


I'll post in the General forum about this problem. Maybe there are other folks with the same issue. I've already posted in the Arturia forum after finally finding the card with my unlock code. That forum has a captcha, a box to clear and two questions that sometimes have obscure answers for every post and every change you make to a post. Paranoia extreme!


In my case and as far as I can tell so, knobs 1, 5, 9 and 10 are sending wrong data. I really liked this unit.
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Old 08-06-2019, 11:29 PM   #13
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This is probably the final update on this matter.


After sending in a video of slowly turning all the affected knobs, Arturia support confirmed that the hardware is at fault here. I'll either be handing the unit in for repairs(and buying a second to keep working) or sending it to Arturia myself if need be.


Reaper is definitely off the hook.
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:49 AM   #14
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Hi airon, have you found a suitable replacement for Arturia, something with good quality MIDI relative encoders?
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