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Old 12-18-2023, 10:02 AM   #1
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Default v7.07+dev1218 - December 18 2023

v7.07+dev1218 - December 18 2023
  • * Includes feature branch: notify user if default menu changed after a menu was customized
  • * Includes feature branch: media item edits in comping lane optionally affect media item edges in source lane
  • * Includes feature branch: extended ASCII encoding for .wav file text metadata
  • * Includes feature branch: preserve metadata when rendering media items
  • * Includes feature branch: envelope list window improvements
  • * Includes feature branch: video processors in containers
  • * Includes feature branch: media items on higher numbered lanes optionally mask playback of lower lanes
  • * Includes feature branch: large number of video items CPU use optimizations
  • * Includes feature branch: record armed tracks obeying 'do not run muted tracks' preference
  • * Includes feature branch: increase fixed lane limit to 256 lanes
  • + Automation: add preference for automation rate when interpolating between points for FX that support sample-accurate automation
  • + Automation: improve quality of sharp edits on volume/pan/width envelopes
  • + Automation: improve quality of square envelope points for volume/pan/width envelopes
  • + Lanes: actions to move items up/down by lane respect project auto-crossfade setting [p=2743624]
  • + Lanes: improve MIDI editor behavior with certain combinations of preferences on fixed lane tracks [t=286332]
  • + Mouse maps: fix click-type display order when names are localized
  • + ReaScript: add GetSetMediaItemInfo("C_ALLLANESPLAY")
  • + Tempo envelope: when inserting empty space, ensure tempo remains the same at the start of the moved content [t=286359]
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 12-18-2023, 10:05 AM   #2
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Quote:
  • + Automation: add preference for automation rate when interpolating between points for FX that support sample-accurate automation
  • + Automation: improve quality of sharp edits on volume/pan/width envelopes
  • + Automation: improve quality of square envelope points for volume/pan/width envelopes
Fire!

Quote:
  • + Tempo envelope: when inserting empty space, ensure tempo remains the same at the start of the moved content [t=286359]
Very nice, thank you devs!
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Old 12-18-2023, 10:15 AM   #3
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Thank u for the automation clicks/pops refinements you guys!

Just adding that it's musically most useful for the start of a bar, or grid-line to take priority at a square automation point.

Drums' transients lie at the start of measures, and missing even a tenth of a millisecond due to a square envelope flipping from mute to play will smother the transient. Then we're editing points to be "2 pixels before the bar" just to avoid this, and it gets messy and out of hand when duplicating sections with Razor Edits because of the offset automation point, etc etc.
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Old 12-18-2023, 10:27 AM   #4
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Looks like I'll be using VST3 plugins only for EQs and compressors for my the dialogue tracks.

I'll see if this makes a serious difference in the coming weeks.
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Old 12-18-2023, 10:29 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
[*]+ Lanes: improve MIDI editor behavior with certain combinations of preferences on fixed lane tracks [t=286332]
Since you're at ME improvements over Fixed Lanes, I think this would be appropriate:
Disable ghost notes for muted fixed lanes


Fixed lanes MIDI item switching through ghost notes inconsistency
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:01 AM   #6
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Can we please get an action to delete all takes under a comp without deleting lanes that have existing takes in other comps on the same track? Happy holidays
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Thank u for the automation clicks/pops refinements you guys!

Just adding that it's musically most useful for the start of a bar, or grid-line to take priority at a square automation point.

Drums' transients lie at the start of measures, and missing even a tenth of a millisecond due to a square envelope flipping from mute to play will smother the transient. Then we're editing points to be "2 pixels before the bar" just to avoid this, and it gets messy and out of hand when duplicating sections with Razor Edits because of the offset automation point, etc etc.
I wrote a feature request fairly recently which kinda relates to this, but in regards specifically with the "Transition time for automatically created envelope edge points" functionality: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=285782

My main issues there were that a) there's an inconsistency with how they work with time selection vs razor edit, and b) because of the way the transition is mirrored at each end of the selection, one of the ends always ends up with the transition happening after the grid line (ie. likely transient), which can be problematic.
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:53 AM   #8
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Thx for automation enhancements !


Quote:
+ Automation: add preference for automation rate when interpolating between points for FX that support sample-accurate automation

For ref, here is the setting:





Can you give some tips about how/when to use this ? What typical setting should be put there ?
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:55 AM   #9
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VST2 and Reaper parameter modulation (link from fx parameter) would also benefit from getting something to chose their "automation rate". Because one update every audio buffer is not enough for many musical applications.

Sorry to bother again, but it's a serious problem here. Rate doesn't have to adapt "dynamically", it could just be fast (every n samples or something... Anything that doesn't sound like a 7bit CC staircase effect).

Last edited by Loulou92; 12-18-2023 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post
Thx for automation enhancements !





For ref, here is the setting:





Can you give some tips about how/when to use this ? What typical setting should be put there ?
That doesn't relate to the rate that points are drawn when drawing automation by chance does it? I would love to see that.
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:09 PM   #11
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Context:

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
REAPER always sends the actual envelope point time and value to plugins, with sample accuracy, if the plugin supports sample-accurate automation. I assume you are talking about what happens in between envelope points, for example in a situation like this:



In between envelope points, REAPER sends the plugin automation updates at the end of every buffer block. Almost all plugins (I'm unable to find a single counterexample at the moment) will themselves interpolate in between notifications, in which case a linear envelope point shape will play back with sample accuracy.

Shapes other than linear will be effectively pieced together by the plugin, so the automation will be inaccurate in the sense that the smooth automation curve will be approximated by linear segments with length equal to the buffer block length (for example, 256 samples @ 48k = 5ms segments). The automation playback is accurate at the start and end of each segment, and inaccurate only with respect to how much the linear approximation differs from the curve at the center of the segment. Note that for almost all plugins the approximation is linear (meaning the plugin draws a line between parameter value at the start and end of the segment), not stepwise (meaning the plugin keeps the start value throughout the segment and steps to the end value for the next segment).

In other words, what you are observing is a non-issue for most plugins when using square or linear envelope points, and a very small issue when using curved envelope points. It is a legitimate issue for plugins that do not themselves interpolate.
The default setting of zero (no interpolation) is likely fine for almost all use cases.

Any other setting only matters if you are using curved envelope point shapes, or if you have plugins that support sample-accurate automation but do not themselves interpolate between automation messages (such plugins probably exist but I am not aware of any).

The setting tells REAPER to send automation messages more frequently than once per buffer block, in between automation points. You could set it to 1ms for example.
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loulou92 View Post
VST2 and Reaper parameter modulation (link from fx parameter) would also benefit from getting something to chose their "automation rate". Because one update every audio buffer is not enough for many musical applications.
This setting does apply to parameter modulation, assuming the parameter being modulated does have an active envelope as well. We can make it apply regardless of whether there is an active envelope.

However all of post #11 applies to parameter modulation as well as automation envelopes. Is there a particular plugin that you are hearing a stairstep effect for, when using parameter modulation?

[edit] in another thread I see you are talking about a VST2 plugin that does not itself interpolate automation messages. VST2 does not support sample-accurate automation, so this setting will have no effect on any VST2 with respect to envelopes or parameter modulation. For this kind of VST2, the only way to improve the automation smoothness would be to run a smaller buffer block size.

Last edited by schwa; 12-18-2023 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
v7.07+dev1218 - December 18 2023[*]+ Mouse maps: fix click-type display order when names are localized
what is it about?
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
v7.07+dev1218 - December 18 2023
[*]+ Automation: add preference for automation rate when interpolating between points for FX that support sample-accurate automation
[*]+ Automation: improve quality of sharp edits on volume/pan/width envelopes
[*]+ Automation: improve quality of square envelope points for volume/pan/width envelopes
Holy S***! Big improvement, thanks!
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:31 PM   #15
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Regarding the new improvements for sharp edits, could there be an option so we could adjust how much sharp or smooth we want it to be?
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This setting does apply to parameter modulation, assuming the parameter being modulated does have an active envelope as well. We can make it apply regardless of whether there is an active envelope.

However all of post #11 applies to parameter modulation as well as automation envelopes. Is there a particular plugin that you are hearing a stairstep effect for, when using parameter modulation?

[edit] in another thread I see you are talking about a VST2 plugin that does not itself interpolate automation messages. VST2 does not support sample-accurate automation, so this setting will have no effect on any VST2 with respect to envelopes or parameter modulation. For this kind of VST2, the only way to improve the automation smoothness would be to run a smaller buffer block size.
I wished we could decide to run certain old VST2 with smaller buffers, so that they would have better automation behavior.

CTRLR VST2 version 5.3.201 is an abandonware that allows to create custom vst editors for your hardware. And it's very stable and effective at doing that, and unique, absolutely unique (no replacement). But it seems thats it has a stepped automation behavior (even though it's supposed to send 14 bit MIDI)...

And I notice the steppiness mostly when I create a parameter link between an automated CTRLR parameter and another VST parameter (Expert Sleepers Silent way). The other VST sends 14bit midi information via ADAT to CV equiped hardware (it's complicated). The hardware should sound smooth when automated but it sounds super stepped instead, and I can audibly hear differences when I change Reaper audio buffers, so it's linked to the audio buffer and CTRLR automation rate or the parameter link from CTRLR to the other plugin. Maybe CTRLR does not interpolate, in which case, maybe it could use a little help from Cockos.

Anyway Thanks Schwa . Terrific work as always !

Last edited by Loulou92; 12-18-2023 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 12-18-2023, 12:52 PM   #17
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CTRLR 5.3.201 is the tool used by Momo to create all his paying hardware editors :

https://momomoter.jimdofree.com/

Me I've created more than 30 editors like that to run my hardware setup.

It's an invaluable tool, but I suspect it does not interpolate correctly. It was a free vst, developed by one developper which has long left the building.

CTRLR has VST3 versions, but I have tested all the versions, and on Windows they are NOT STABLE IN REAPER. They crash very often. VST2 5.3.201 is the way to go.

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Old 12-18-2023, 01:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
v7.07+dev1218 - December 18 2023
[*]+ Lanes: actions to move items up/down by lane respect project auto-crossfade setting [p=2743624]

Talk about fast! Thanks, really stupendous fix. Made my Xmas.
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Old 12-18-2023, 01:27 PM   #19
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I'm sure it's clear, but just in case: I am selecting, copying, clicking and pasting on Track 1.

I see that the insertion point remains on track 2 when I click on the lane on track 1, I'm just not sure if that's expected. The only way to get that insertion point back to track 1 is to select it, which feels like friction.
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Old 12-18-2023, 01:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
I'm sure it's clear, but just in case: I am selecting, copying, clicking and pasting on Track 1.

I see that the insertion point remains on track 2 when I click on the lane on track 1, I'm just not sure if that's expected.
I think you have "Mouse click/edit in arrange view changes track selection" (Preferences / Editing Behavior / Mouse) disabled, in which case this is the expected behavior. That setting is enabled by default.
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Old 12-18-2023, 01:35 PM   #21
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I made a video on some (pretty serious IMO) automation issues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql-e_LUqSB0

Another automation issue I noticed after making the video:
LFO shapes (besides Square and Parametric) are incomplete if "Loop" is not checked.
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Old 12-18-2023, 01:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I think you have "Mouse click/edit in arrange view changes track selection" (Preferences / Editing Behavior / Mouse) disabled, in which case this is the expected behavior. That setting is enabled by default.
Yes, I have it disabled. I guess I'll need to reconsider that...
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Old 12-18-2023, 02:16 PM   #23
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@abnegative
This is valid report IMHO, but related to automation items, than core automation, so it should be discussed in another threads.
There is definitely a bit of room for improvements with these items, I use them a lot lately and have experience few issues (mostly implying rounding), I'll have to document this at some point.

@schwa
Thx for the infos 👍
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Old 12-18-2023, 03:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post

Am I right assuming, that it does affect Reaper Volume etc ?

An I right assuming that it does not apply for Parameter <- Midi link or Parameter <- Parameter link ?
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Old 12-18-2023, 04:01 PM   #25
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odd problem here 7.07 - putting here just for initial eyeballs. will delete thereafter.

the docker/s on mac has decided to leave the building.
not coming up at all anywhere via any action related to showing docker -
anything that was in it (my windows sets had mixer in it etc) gone - but return if manualy removed from docker via action.

think its glitch related to 2nd screen being on or off.
unplugged external monitor, restart reaper, still no docker.

might there be some .ini tweak to bring her back?

cheers in advance.

EDIT fixed:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...74&postcount=5
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Old 12-18-2023, 04:31 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
VST2 does not support sample-accurate automation
Maybe not in writing it doesn't support it (although they apparently had this feature in VST2 SDK v2.3, but then removed it in v2.4 since they didn't document it and nobody used it as a consequence), but apparently FL Studio worked around this by just sending plugins random buffer sizes based on how often automation appears. This allows for faster automation updates for sure. Although, it does bring out issues with some plugins, which is why FL Studio has a per-plugin option to use fixed buffer sizes.

Maybe a hint there.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 12-18-2023 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 12-18-2023, 05:11 PM   #27
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Thanks for your input Evildragon.

Please let's not trash entirely the possibility of implementing something like this. Yes it's maybe CPU intensive, but user knows if it's worth it or not on a case by case basis.

As long as it's stable, it has a role to play...

Heck... CTRLR editors have an excellent real time response when the project is paused, and when I manually click on a parameter and wiggle a bit. The response is rock solid. 14 bit infos are sent to the hardware, it sound good. A filter sweep for example, it's perfectly reproduced.

But as soon as I hit play and Reaper plays back the CTRLR automation, then it's super stepped past buffer 256. So frustrating ! the VST knows how to do its job, but in the playback all the musicality is lost. I should use a very low buffer to get an "ok" result, but it's not possible. I can't lower the buffer. I have all the rest going on, the mix, the FXs, the template, the tracks, the master FXs. Can't lower the threshold under 256 or 512. To work confortably, actually, I need to use buffers 2048, 4096, 8192. Then you acn forget about automating VST2 let me tell you. It's not even stepping, Automation are not usable anymore.
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Old 12-18-2023, 05:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Maybe not in writing it doesn't support it (although they apparently had this feature in VST2 SDK v2.3, but then removed it in v2.4 since they didn't document it and nobody used it as a consequence), but apparently FL Studio worked around this by just sending plugins random buffer sizes based on how often automation appears. This allows for faster automation updates for sure. Although, it does bring out issues with some plugins, which is why FL Studio has a per-plugin option to use fixed buffer sizes.

Maybe a hint there.
We know from experience that varying buffer sizes blows up a whole lot of plugins.
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Old 12-18-2023, 05:23 PM   #29
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We know from experience that varying buffer sizes blows up a whole lot of plugins.
Then make it opt-in per plugin (rather than opt-out as in FLS), for those who really want it?
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Old 12-18-2023, 05:30 PM   #30
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I mean... the plugins in question are past end of life, built on a deprecated framework, and don't support best practices with respect to parameter smoothing. Some of them would blow up anyway with a variable block size. The target set here is pretty small and we wouldn't even know if a host-side workaround would be effective for any given plugin until after we implemented it.
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Old 12-18-2023, 06:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I mean... the plugins in question are past end of life, built on a deprecated framework, and don't support best practices with respect to parameter smoothing. Some of them would blow up anyway with a variable block size. The target set here is pretty small and we wouldn't even know if a host-side workaround would be effective for any given plugin until after we implemented it.
So, schwa, can we get it (or something like that) for "all-native" Reaper plugins (Rea and JSFX) and their corresponding Parameter Modulations and Automation then at least?

Last edited by akademie; 12-18-2023 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:57 PM   #32
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I think you have "Mouse click/edit in arrange view changes track selection" (Preferences / Editing Behavior / Mouse) disabled, in which case this is the expected behavior. That setting is enabled by default.
The reason I have this disabled is because when I use 'Automatic record-arm when track selected', it's simply too easy to inadvertently change track selection.

I could imagine a mode where clicking on the track background would change track selection, but not when clicking on items, which would probably solve that conflict. Or maybe there's some other workflow you were imagining when developing that feature.

I'm trying it disabled, with a custom script to change track selection on double-click on the track for now, maybe that will do it for me. But maybe you have a suggestion, since I do find those options to be in conflict.

Also, I found an inconsistency:



Although clicking on the track background or items won't change the insertion point, clicking on an envelope will, and you can't get the insertion point back to the selected track without re-selecting it. I suspect that this is why I was confused in my first LICEcap post (in that I've been working a lot in envelope lanes).

EDIT: maybe an action to set insertion point to track/lane under mouse cursor could be helpful
EDIT to EDIT: this kind of does it, but it looks like a happy accident
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Old 12-19-2023, 01:04 AM   #33
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apparently FL Studio worked around this by just sending plugins random buffer sizes based on how often automation appears.
Not Really "sample accurate" (which would need down to one sample block size). Justin and Schwa state that variable block size is not compatible with a huge count of plugins. And of course small blocks might increase CPU load for a plugin extremely. (see -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=286351 and links there)
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Old 12-19-2023, 01:11 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
blow up anyway with a variable block size.
I suppose it's "normal" for a plugin to get the block size and sample rate once when starting and use that numbers for calculations later on. I seem to remember having done that with JSFXes.
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Old 12-19-2023, 02:02 AM   #35
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Quote:
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We know from experience that varying buffer sizes blows up a whole lot of plugins.
Perhaps, but apparently not enough of them that FL would make that an opt-in option rather than opt-out?
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Old 12-19-2023, 02:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Not Really "sample accurate"
And I mentioned that this would be "sample accurate" exactly nowhere, nor was that the intention. But that it can result in more precise automation, that is true, and is exemplified by FL Studio's implementation, where it mostly works for decades already.
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Old 12-19-2023, 02:05 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
Also, I found an inconsistency:
Yes, it's because insertion bracket placed on focused track rather than selected one. This problem also appears when you click on tcp buttons without track selection change.
Personally I can't understand the conception of focused track if it's not equal the selected.
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Old 12-19-2023, 02:31 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
Personally I can't understand the conception of focused track if it's not equal the selected.
Because selection is used for other stuff (like record-arm), it's useful to have those decoupled.
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Old 12-19-2023, 02:44 AM   #39
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Many people use CTRLR. It's a whole little microcosm for hardware users. I'm sure there are other old quirky weird plugins that don't interpolate correctly.

Sunny synth uses CTRLR to create his editors :
https://www.sunnysynths.com/

Monstrummedia uses CTRLR to create the only good editor for the venerable Waldorf Wave 1 wavetable hybrid hardware synth and other Waldord synths :
https://www.monstrummedia.com/produc...monstrumwavext

All the Momo editors :
https://momomoter.jimdofree.com/

Hundreds other free editors are still shared to this day by users, covering hundreds of hardware synths and hardware FX peripherals. Moog, Dave Smith, Roland, Yamaha, Lexicon... Many indispensable editors.

It's worth supporting ! For the hardware crowd !
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Old 12-19-2023, 02:50 AM   #40
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Anyway I do agree that for all Reaper parameter link modulations, it would be a good thing to have sub-block resolution for automations. This should probably be the priority here, yes. & maybe it's already the case, I'm not sure (post #12). English is not my forte in the morning.

Last edited by Loulou92; 12-19-2023 at 02:58 AM.
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