Sound quality of Reaper

[merge]

Hi all,

I have been moving sessions and files between my systems with SSL Pro Convert today. One thing I noticed, along with two other engineers sitting in today, is that if we took a single wav file and played it in each DAW there were quite markedly different playback qualities between them. I used the same hardware and clock for all the DAWs and I would clearly rate Samplitude 10 as the best, Cubase 4 and Reaper as a distant 2/3rd. Both Cubase and Reaper mess with the sound in a bad way. i.e. Cubase sounds like a high quality MP3(lossy)while Reaper sounds harsh in the top end.
We all thought that although Reaper has many great features it will stay a low end DAW solution until it can serve up some quality sound playback capability.

Best,
merge

[ieso]

user error

seriously, you need to set up your preferences correctly

DAWs don't have a sound. They do math.

now, go troll somewhere else

[aldi]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhh
will these stupid "this daw sounds better than that" ever stop ???????? 1+1 = 2 and nothing in the world will change this (at least in our current dimension )

[ieso]

It's so fucking retarded. Sound of Daw people should have a special forum built for them at Gear Sluts and they should be confined there to argue with each other.

[Tallisman]

but wait!
he and two other engineers all heard a difference!
and they were using pro convert!

++1 Pilot Error.

they null.
like I wish these threads would.



.t

[CoffeeMilkshake]

Use this:



The top end is incredible with these...You'll look even more pro.

[manning1]

laughable.
as the others said.
user eror.

[dub3000]

Originally Posted by merge

One thing I noticed, along with two other engineers sitting in today, is that if we took a single wav file and played it in each DAW there were quite markedly different playback qualities between them.

probably you're just hearing differences in volume. the ear has a different EQ curve at higher levels of loudness (look up fletcher munsen curves in google), and some DAWs may have a different default volume for new tracks.

if you're not applying fx or timestretching there is no way any of those DAWs would sound different playing back through the same hardware. pan laws might be different though but that wouldn't affect a single stereo wav file.

[merge]

Hi guys,

thanks for your input. It is clear to most who work prefessionally in the audio world that each DAW's mix buss has a unique audio engine performance and therefore effect on the quality of sound reproduction.

There is no user error in this testing process. The same wav file that was tracked into Merging Pyramix 6 was used without conversion and played back as a single wav file in each DAW at 88.2k with the same external HEDD 192 convertors using the same external clock. Oh, and the apps were running side by side so that there were direct comparisons available within a moment of reassigning the ASIO driver.

Before you start flaming with irrational comments maybe go try some real testing yourself. We have available to us in the studio Pyramix 6, Protools HD, Cubendo 4, Sampquoia and Reaper and have tested each DAW extensively under numerous configurations.

Best,
merge

[JasonTheron]

Originally Posted by merge

Before you start flaming with irrational comments maybe go try some real testing yourself.

Check this out:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13473

Welcome to the forum!

[griz lee]

Originally Posted by merge

Hi guys,

thanks for your input. It is clear to most who work prefessionally in the audio world that each DAW's mix buss has a unique audio engine performance and therefore effect on the quality of sound reproduction.

I used to think that. I was totally convinced that ProTools sounded like **$$*$ and Samplitude was awesome.

Reading about this, and listening to the 3D audio Inc great sum-bus comparison revealed that I totally imagined it. To my surprise, i was able to get both PT and Samp to null. So, it was probably Samp's plugins (nice, double precision etc) that won the day against the rather old PT mix2 system, but the basic bus output totally nulled between the two. This was a bit of a shock to me, because, coming from analog, I expected in my head that the two systems would absolutely have to sound different.

Now though, I just don't get the 'mix bus' business. There is only one way you can add two numbers: with an add operation. IF you have enough headroom to preserve the result (which will be a longer word length than the source material) with all bits intact -- nearly all modern DAWs do (PT uses carefull gain scaling to keep the result in a double precision integer) then no detail is going to get lost.

That's it. The upshot of all this for me is that, if the basic engineering quality is there, it's down to differences in how the gui makes you use the program and how that gets reflected in your sound.

Damn. I've just added to this stuff, haven't i..

[aldi]

Originally Posted by merge

It is clear to most who work prefessionally in the audio world that each DAW's mix buss has a unique audio engine performance and therefore effect on the quality of sound reproduction. ....... We have available to us in the studio Pyramix 6, Protools HD, Cubendo 4, Sampquoia and Reaper and have tested each DAW extensively under numerous configurations.

owning expensiv studio equipment doesn't make a professional. knowing your bussiness and stuff does it. so please go and learn a littlebit about DAW's on computers. it isn't the same as an integrated hardware system where the sound of A/D converters come to play. and it's really sad to see, that you are maybe right with the statement "most who work professional..effect on the quality of sound.". too good, that i can mix my stuff myself and don't have to trust a wannebe pro engineer.

[merge]

Thanks Aldi, you are clearly improving the debate on professional audio... I'll leave you guys to enjoy ITB mixing lol!

[ieso]

priceless.

Dear Reaperites,

I, and my professional engineer colleagues, while conferencing in my professional laptop studio situated conveniently under the stairs of my mother's basement, noticed dreadful audio degradation whilst importing files into Reaper. I said to the professional audio engineer seated to my right, "I say, Monty, Reaper sounds like buttocks!" "Jolly right" responded Frederick, the professional audio engineer standing to my left, wearing a look of whimsical disdain. So, I said, "We're all agreed, then, it's Samplitude for Pros!" With professional responsibility weighing mightily on our minds we reluctantly logged onto the Reaper forum to pass judgement on this unfortunate and misguided entrance into the world of professional audio. And so, we professional audio engineers leave you sad collection of ragtag amateurs to it. God speed and Cheerio!

Merge, Professional Audio Engineer

------
I'm seriously upset because when I think "Pro" the name "Merge" was always at the top of my list.

Sad.

Just sad.

All the sunshine is gone from my audio world.

The daisies aren't as pretty now, for me.

The sky is a shade more dull.

Oh, woe is me.

But wait! Perhaps it's not too late for me to run across the meadow and embrace Samplitude!

I too will be a Pro!

Adieu, Reaper!
------
seriously, merge, you don't know what you're talking about
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13473

[maa]

Originally Posted by merge

Hi all,........We all thought that although Reaper has many great features it will stay a low end DAW solution..........

Hey merge, whats your name on the Samplitude Pro forum?
Are you posting your results there too ? I'm sure Samdev will be pleased to hear these results.

Interesting you use the name "Sampquoia" - that is pretty much insider language!
Did you think Reaper users would know what that means?

See you there then!

.

[burak]

Originally Posted by CoffeeMilkshake

Use this:



The top end is incredible with these...You'll look even more pro.

I almost sprayed the coffee over the screen.

[Billoon]

Originally Posted by merge

...if we took a single wav file and played it in each DAW there were quite markedly different playback qualities between them.

Sorry to rehash this, i was a bit slow of the mark with this one.


Just to be sure, i downloaded the Sam10 demo and used ReaRoute to play back a single wav file into Reaper and recorded it.

When i nulled the recorded file against the original, the result was a wav with max and min values of zero... a completely empty file. I did the same with Reaper into Reaper and got the same results.

This proves that the output is identical to the original wav from both DAWs.

Any percieved differences are likely unconscious prejudice.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by maa

Interesting you use the name "Sampquoia" - that is pretty much insider language!

ooops

snarf snarf

[Alex Stone]

I'm somewhat disturbed by the general mood of disbelief and disdain on display here.

It's a 'known' fact that if i buy professional archive weight manuscript paper and write on that in good ink,with a 'pro' quill, i get better notes, and it sounds better when i record em.

But if i use crap manuscript from the local bookshop (not that i ever would), and write notes with a bog standard clutch pencil, it just doesn't sound the same when recorded.

But surely you chaps knew that anyway.

Now i'm off to squeeze a pro squid for more 'pro' ink, and pluck a pedigree turkey for a couple of new 'pro' quills.


Beethoven was right. It's all in the head.

Alex.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by merge

There is no user error in this testing process. The same wav file that was tracked into Merging Pyramix 6 was used without conversion and played back as a single wav file in each DAW at 88.2k with the same external HEDD 192 convertors using the same external clock. Oh, and the apps were running side by side so that there were direct comparisons available within a moment of reassigning the ASIO driver.

So wait, it's a single wav file, and each app sounds different? This is mind boggling, as there's no mixing actually happening, it's simply streaming to the output.

Also, may I suggest that "there is no user error in this testing process" is completely ridiculous! Clearly there is no KNOWN user error, but to proclaim that there was no error in the process, without a full examination of that process, is a bit unrealistic.

For example, if you tested some complex mixing arrangement with different apps, and all of them to NULL completely, then I think it might be OK to say "there are no apparent user errors", however even in those instances user error was possible--

When you have utterly inconclusive, unquantifiable results, proclaiming that there was no user error is completely meaningless.

-Justin

[flight]

Originally Posted by Alex Stone

I'm somewhat disturbed by the general mood of disbelief and disdain on display here.

It's a 'known' fact that if i buy professional archive weight manuscript paper and write on that in good ink,with a 'pro' quill, i get better notes, and it sounds better when i record em.

But if i use crap manuscript from the local bookshop (not that i ever would), and write notes with a bog standard clutch pencil, it just doesn't sound the same when recorded.

But surely you chaps knew that anyway.

Now i'm off to squeeze a pro squid for more 'pro' ink, and pluck a pedigree turkey for a couple of new 'pro' quills.


Beethoven was right. It's all in the head.

Alex.

ROFL. Dang, boy. Youse is bad. Does yoose do standup as well? If so, I wantz a ticket... Several, in fact...

BTW, haz been lookin' for a pro squid for some time. Where duz y' get yerz?

Is indeed, all in the head...

-f

[mschuster]

Originally Posted by ieso

priceless.

Dear Reaperites,

I, and my professional engineer colleagues, while conferencing in my professional laptop studio situated conveniently under the stairs of my mother's basement, noticed dreadful audio degradation whilst importing files into Reaper. I said to the professional audio engineer seated to my right, "I say, Monty, Reaper sounds like buttocks!" "Jolly right" responded Frederick, the professional audio engineer standing to my left, wearing a look of whimsical disdain. So, I said, "We're all agreed, then, it's Samplitude for Pros!" With professional responsibility weighing mightily on our minds we reluctantly logged onto the Reaper forum to pass judgement on this unfortunate and misguided entrance into the world of professional audio. And so, we professional audio engineers leave you sad collection of ragtag amateurs to it. God speed and Cheerio!

Merge, Professional Audio Engineer

------
I'm seriously upset because when I think "Pro" the name "Merge" was always at the top of my list.

Sad.

Just sad.

All the sunshine is gone from my audio world.

The daisies aren't as pretty now, for me.

The sky is a shade more dull.

Oh, woe is me.

But wait! Perhaps it's not too late for me to run across the meadow and embrace Samplitude!

I too will be a Pro!

Adieu, Reaper!
------
seriously, merge, you don't know what you're talking about
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13473

ieso - you're killing me... i haven't laughed this hard at 9:00am in the morning for, well - ever. the best part...no caffeine involved (yet). thanks for the morning giggle.

[Ficeduld]

ieso; I must agree. Great fun!!!

[ieso]

Originally Posted by Justin

So wait, it's a single wav file, and each app sounds different? This is mind boggling, as there's no mixing actually happening
-Justin

He's not talking about the actual mix engine but the Mix Engine (TM)

It's pro jargon. We're not supposed to know about this stuff.

Sssssssssssh

[kaddenheart]

i'm not sure what "sampquia" is ,...

but dear lord.
everyone jumped on this dudes back pretty hard. ,..not that i didn't laugh at a lot of these posts but.... you all lack souls. lol

anyway,
just wondering what sampquiaiasoso is or whatnot?

[Tallisman]

Originally Posted by kaddenheart

but dear lord.
everyone jumped on this dudes back pretty hard. ,..not that i didn't laugh at a lot of these posts but.... you all lack souls. lol

Kaddenheart, with respect,

the apparent weight of the back jump is proportionate to the absurdity of the claim.

these same falsehoods have been proclaimed, tested and scientifically proven to be total bunk, time and again...

if you do not adjust levels and add no colour, the output from all but the busted DAWs null.

Done.

the difference you hear is not in the studio but in the sound of the sales engineer counting your change, in one case, and the bills you dispense in the other.

be well all.
.t

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by kaddenheart

i'm not sure what "sampquia" is ,...

but dear lord.
everyone jumped on this dudes back pretty hard. ,..not that i didn't laugh at a lot of these posts but.... you all lack souls. lol

with all due respect, the reason is, the audio community has already discussed this issue ad nauseaum...

[Zee]

Loool

Guys ?? Hello....

There are all kind of ''sound engine'' algorythms

The ''null the mixes'' test is the funniest thing ever.




Oh yeah, BTW a better sound engine will first reveal your engineering weaknesses....

[Zee]

Originally Posted by aldi

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhh
will these stupid "this daw sounds better than that" ever stop ???????? 1+1 = 2 and nothing in the world will change this (at least in our current dimension )

You just did... 1+1 just can't equal 2.... 1+1=0butnotif1isnotfollowedbythenext01101sequence, enter.

[matey]

first off, I can barely hear my audio 'cos the literally screaming cooler fans of my daw :-((

ditto,....let's start a little blind test where people vote what the better "audio processing" between two identically programmed vst plugins with different graphic interfaces...

I guess even the pros could be easily misleaded...

cheers

[knuckleheddd]

DAW's compute different things in different ways (for example, there is more than one panning law) but basically no DAW has a better sound than another.

By the way, how do I start a new thread? I want to discuss MIDI routing for a new program call Algomusic Atomic within Reaper.

Knuckleheddd

[Chris_P_Critter]

whydidthisthreadgetresurrectedagaincantwejustletit diealreadyalsopleasepassthehasbrownsthankyoubye

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by Zee

There are all kind of ''sound engine'' algorythms

where?

Originally Posted by Zee

The ''null the mixes'' test is the funniest thing ever.

why? Do you know how phase works?

[JasonTheron]

Here you go Chris P!:

[Zee]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

where?


why? Do you know how phase works?

Because the only way to make 2 softwares null themselves, is to have exactly the same mix and the same sound in both software.... wich then means that they do sound the same....But, for that, you need to NOT consider deepness, perspective and thickness of the audio.

And because you've never heard a software sound bad or better than reaper, doesn't mean there couldn't be one.... or two...or more.

BTW, Reaper sounds a bit better than many other daws.

[ngarjuna]

Originally Posted by Zee

Because the only way to make 2 softwares null themselves, is to have exactly the same mix and the same sound in both software.... wich then means that they do sound the same....But, for that, you need to NOT consider deepness, perspective and thickness of the audio.

That's so flawed I don't even know where to begin...

There is no such thing as depth, perspective or thickness in terms of audio; these are analogies/metaphors that engineers use to describe particular things which, if quantified, would be manifest as differences in tone, dynamics or image. If two files differ in tone, dynamics, or image, they will not null. Plain and simple.

[Zee]

Originally Posted by ngarjuna

That's so flawed I don't even know where to begin...

There is no such thing as depth, perspective or thickness in terms of audio;

Holy !!!

You dude are perfectly fitted for video editing

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by Zee

Because the only way to make 2 softwares null themselves, is to have exactly the same mix and the same sound in both software.... wich then means that they do sound the same....But, for that, you need to NOT consider deepness, perspective and thickness of the audio.

And because you've never heard a software sound bad or better than reaper, doesn't mean there couldn't be one.... or two...or more.

BTW, Reaper sounds a bit better than many other daws.

wait, this is a joke right?

[Zee]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

wait, this is a joke right?

What part makes you laugh ?

[ngarjuna]

Actually, there is a flaw in my above post. Let me correct my earlier statement to make it more accurate:

these are analogies/metaphors that engineers use to describe particular things which, if quantified, would be manifest as differences in tone, dynamics or image. If two files differ in tone, dynamics, or image, they will not null. Plain and simple.

A more accurate statement would have been that these things, if quantified, would be manifest as differences in tone, dynamics or phase.

It is possible to do null tests or bit for bit comparisons which compare the original audio master against the final pressing, assuring that the audio data had not been altered after it left the mastering house.

emphasis author's
From Bob Katz, Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science, 2nd Edition, 2007, Burlington, MA, page 36.

Bit for bit accuracy means the two files are identical.