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Old 01-11-2022, 11:03 PM   #1
dsf1
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Default Midi Note Editor - Cannot align note to grid line

Hello everyone,

Hope all is well.

Something that has been bothering me for years, and I always thought it was a bug in the software, but to this day it's still haunting me, so I wanted to see if someone can help solve the mystery.

I've got a midi editor window open, and I'm trying to move one short midi note to the grid line. I want it right on the line when fully zoomed in, so I know it's firing perfect time.

It looks like it's on the gridline as you are zooming in, then when you get to fully zoomed-in, I can see that the note is just over the line. Example attached.

Most of the time, this is not a problem and notes will align exactly to the grid.

Then, sometimes I get these strange situations where the midi note will NOT let me put it on the grid without it being slightly before or after.

Reaper won't even let me lengthen or shorten the note to the grid. It always wants to be before or after.

I have tried with Snap-on or off, doesn't help.

I've changed the grid spacing, doesn't matter if it's 1/4 or 1/128th grid.

I tried creating a new midi note and it positions itself exactly where the other note is, not aligned to the grid, and that new note won't let me move it to the line either. It follows in the behavior of the other note.

I tried toggling "loop item source", thinking maybe that was preventing the note from moving. No go

I tried quantizing the notes to the grid, and it still won't suck up to the grid line. It's always a tiny bit before or after the line and sometimes it's larger distances.

This seems like such a basic feature, yet I don't understand why some notes won't align.

again, this is not every note, most of the time reaper is happy aligning stuff to that line, perfectly.

Thank you so much in advance!!
I really appreciate any advice you guys and gals can provide.

Cheers!
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Old 01-11-2022, 11:21 PM   #2
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Something that has been bothering me for years, and I always thought it was a bug in the software, but to this day it's still haunting me, so I wanted to see if someone can help solve the mystery.
I've seen this too dsf1, and it never really bothered me. I think it has something to do with the math with "Ticks per quarter note" and how it lines up with the BPM of the song.

I'm using 960 Ticks per quarter note, and when I zoom in as close as it as possible, the notes rarely line up with the bar/measure.
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Old 01-11-2022, 11:28 PM   #3
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I've seen this too dsf1, and it never really bothered me. I think it has something to do with the math with "Ticks per quarter note" and how it lines up with the BPM of the song.

I'm using 960 Ticks per quarter note, and when I zoom in as close as it as possible, the notes rarely line up with the bar/measure.
Hey there, thank you for your suggestions.

It bothers me!! lol. I hear what you are saying, but the ticks per quarter note don't make much sense to me. Reaper should allow me to align the timing of that note regardless and it does 99% of the time, so why just not on certain notes?


Maybe it's a bug that never got fixed after all these years. I kept hoping that it would get fixed in the next version, but it lives on.
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Last edited by dsf1; 01-11-2022 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 01-12-2022, 12:04 AM   #4
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I just did a test. I divided 920 by 4 and got 330, so I set the BPM to 330 and the notes in the midi editor line up perfectly.

So I changed the BPM to 115 and it was the same everything lines up perfect. Same with 184, because 920 is divisible by 184.

However, when I changed it to a 123 which I know will not divide into 920 evenly and it still lined up perfectly over several measures.

so you may be right dsf1, but I don't think it's much to worry about. When I think about 1/920, that's pretty small and will never be heard.

But you've got a point, so keep at it if you want.
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Old 01-12-2022, 01:35 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by dsf1 View Post
Something that has been bothering me for years, and I always thought it was a bug in the software, but to this day it's still haunting me, so I wanted to see if someone can help solve the mystery.
Can you post a minimal RPP with the issue?
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Old 01-12-2022, 02:43 AM   #6
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I, though,am so sensitive to the slightest wandering of timing It puts my whole day out, I start to notice the grid-lines behind reality and how much they're warped away from my ideal day.If not corrected this offness spreads through time and I'm pretty sure is behind so-called golbal warming (or warping, as I call it). I blame the way maths is taught in schools these days, and decimalisation.If pcs had been based on fractions (ie proper imperial numbers) we wouldn't have these problems.

Last edited by Geoff-h3o; 01-12-2022 at 06:49 AM. Reason: (ie proper imperial numbers)
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Old 01-12-2022, 08:31 AM   #7
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very infrequently, i get a note that won't snap to grid despite not having changed any grid settings, project timebases, etc. when resizing, this note does snap, but seemingly to a non-visible grid. this happens so infrequently that i don't have much guess as to reproduction or cause. other notes in the project snap as expected when this happens.

in this case, i struggle for a moment before fixing it by exiting the MIDI editor, gluing the item, and re-entering the item. the note now snaps to the grid. give that a try, if our issues are at all similar that might help.
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Old 01-12-2022, 01:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
very infrequently, i get a note that won't snap to grid despite not having changed any grid settings, project timebases, etc. when resizing, this note does snap, but seemingly to a non-visible grid. this happens so infrequently that i don't have much guess as to reproduction or cause. other notes in the project snap as expected when this happens.

in this case, i struggle for a moment before fixing it by exiting the MIDI editor, gluing the item, and re-entering the item. the note now snaps to the grid. give that a try, if our issues are at all similar that might help.
Yeah, when I first read this thread, I actually had a project where the note wouldn't snap to grid, it had a BPM of 123.

Then in my testing I did a test with the BPM set to 123 and the notes were all spot on. ?????

Oh well, at 920 TPQ that's 0.00108696 of a quarter note off.
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Old 01-13-2022, 01:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
very infrequently, i get a note that won't snap to grid despite not having changed any grid settings, project timebases, etc. when resizing, this note does snap, but seemingly to a non-visible grid. this happens so infrequently that i don't have much guess as to reproduction or cause. other notes in the project snap as expected when this happens.

in this case, i struggle for a moment before fixing it by exiting the MIDI editor, gluing the item, and re-entering the item. the note now snaps to the grid. give that a try, if our issues are at all similar that might help.
Yes, exactly, I like your way of putting it, it's snapping to an invisible grid.

Thank you for the suggestion. I tried your steps on that midi element that won't align; glued the section, then opened it again in the midi editor, and it got worse. Attached is the screen capture. That's the beat line all the way on the right so the note moved a lot compared to my first screen image where it was only a mm or two past the line.. When I go back into the midi editor and try to move those notes, they appear to have aligned to a different imaginary beat grid, which is now, way off but I got excited thinking maybe that would be an easy workaround.

I did add two notes seen in the new img, but they all behave the same.

Glad to know I'm not the only one seeing this. I'm going to call it a bug until proven otherwise

Hey Reaper team!! Can you please fix this bug? It's literally been with us for 10+ years
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Old 01-13-2022, 01:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Can you post a minimal RPP with the issue?
My settings are 920, which is the default...I think that is what you are asking?
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Old 01-13-2022, 02:25 AM   #11
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Another possible workaround, the more I think about it, would be to let the midi note land in front of the grid line (to that invisiable grid), then shorten the "Container" or midi section window over the note and to the correct grid.

This would only help for simple stuff;Single notes and such.
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Old 01-13-2022, 02:49 AM   #12
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My settings are 920, which is the default...I think that is what you are asking?
Post your Reaper project, but leave only few notes that are problematic.
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Old 01-13-2022, 11:07 AM   #13
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This problem typically arises when the MIDI item's internal grid is misaligned with the project's overall grid.

MIDI notes can only start on discrete tick positions, counted from the start of the item source.

Project grid lines also fall on discrete ticks, but counted from project start.

If the MIDI item doesn't start on a project grid, or if the MIDI item is stretched, the internal and overall grids become misaligned. It can also happen if the MIDI item is set to "Ignore project tempo".

(Also note: the item source may extend outside the visible edges of the item, so even if the visible part seems to start at a project beat, the underlying source might not. This can be fixed by gluing the item, as McCrabney suggested.)
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Old 01-16-2022, 06:30 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by dsf1 View Post
It bothers me!! lol. I hear what you are saying, but the ticks per quarter note don't make much sense to me.

Maybe it's a bug that never got fixed after all these years. I kept hoping that it would get fixed in the next version, but it lives on.
You just don't understand how stuff works. Having "infinite time resolution" isn't possible. There always has to be a limit.

If you think about it for even a second, if you have 60bpm tempo, one quarter note is 1/4th of a second, or 250ms, thus having 960pulses per quarter note is having resolution of ~260 MICROseconds per pulse... so your notes are off by 0.26 milliseconds... I'd say that's enough?

And even less higher the tempo is.

Stop zooming in if you can't hear anything's wrong, it'll mess with your head and you start to imagine stuff.
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Old 01-17-2022, 07:47 PM   #15
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 04-04-2022, 11:01 PM   #16
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I ran into this problem again and discovered that I can resolve it by right-clicking on the midi container and selecting "glue items."

Notes that would previously not align to the grid, pop into their correct place after gluing. Once glued, those notes can still be moved around but now they always align to the grid perfectly vs the unglued container.


So this does beg the question about why if it was due to "infinite time resolution" would it align to the grid after glueing and not before glueing. Nothing else changed but that one function
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Old 04-04-2022, 11:33 PM   #17
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Always have snap to project sample rate on.
Also, there was a “bug”? where the rounding was different with glued vs non glued items. iirc “live” things would round up, glued things will round down (or vice versa).not sure if it was ever fixed.
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Old 04-05-2022, 10:56 AM   #18
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Always have snap to project sample rate on.
Also, there was a “bug”? where the rounding was different with glued vs non glued items. iirc “live” things would round up, glued things will round down (or vice versa).not sure if it was ever fixed.
Awesome, Thank you! I'll check that out too.
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Old 04-06-2022, 11:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by dsf1 View Post
I ran into this problem again and discovered that I can resolve it by right-clicking on the midi container and selecting "glue items."

Notes that would previously not align to the grid, pop into their correct place after gluing. Once glued, those notes can still be moved around but now they always align to the grid perfectly vs the unglued container.


So this does beg the question about why if it was due to "infinite time resolution" would it align to the grid after glueing and not before glueing. Nothing else changed but that one function
Prior to gluing, the underlying MIDI source was not aligned with the project grid, even though the item boundaries may have been aligned. The misalignment may have been caused by 1) the MIDI source start time (which isn't necessarily the same as the item start time) didn't fall on a project grid/tick, or 2) the source was stretched.

When you glue an item, all extraneous material that isn't inside the visible boundaries of the item gets discarded, and the newly created MIDI source starts at exactly the item start. So if the item start fell on a project grid/tick, the new source will be nicely aligned.

However, if the item start position did *not* fall on a project grid/tick, everything will again be misaligned. In fact, if you take a MIDI item whose notes nicely align to the grid, then move the item boundary a teeny tiny bit that isn't a multiple of a tick, and then glue the item, the gluing will cause *mis*alignment of the notes.

Last edited by juliansader; 04-06-2022 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 04-06-2022, 04:30 PM   #20
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Thank you. That makes sense, and I did see the midi "container" was not aligned perfectly to the grid prior to some of these cases, and when playing around with it, I saw what you described.

Happy to find a solution and thank you for all the support and suggestions from the reaper family. Much appreciated!

Cheers
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