Back to RMS

[The Kid]

Originally Posted by serr

Yeah, like there's some rule that headphone amps in audio interfaces are supposed to be anemic or something!

Now try to imagine going cartoonishly beyond that like I tried to describe. With overall blown out saturated sound as the norm to the point you can't hear the hard 'clack' of hard clipping stand out from it!

First you think the headphone amp in the thing is just obviously blown up or something. Then you look further and discover it's much worse than that!

And then these bluethooth devices they're selling to kids these days! The tamped down lossy audio literally has a gurgling sound. You or I would immediately assume a defective product and go to return it. Folks are just listening to that apparently unaware. The average 2" TV speaker from the 1970s sounded downright audiophile next to some of this stuff!

The funny thing about the Tascam is that with software monitoring the headphone amp is strong, but not with hardware monitoring.

[Pashkuli]

Originally Posted by Alistair S

I don't get you at all and I hope nobody listens to you.

You appear to be advising people to create recordings that clip.
You want to insist on a completely unnecessary stage before mixing.

Why not just... don't clip????

If you do not get it, does not mean other people won't either.

Never advised people to create recordings that clip.
I said to not get so fussy about it, though they should know and learn what are the best practices to record without clipping, whilst still maintaining a high useful (intended) signal.
You equipment (mics, pickups, pre-amps etc.) still have internal noise, which will be amplified once baked in the recording. It might be low (less than -90dBfs), but will accumulate.

That is what the "completely unnecessary stage before mixing" is all about to teach us.

Do not clip is a good wish, but not easy to maintain in every situation.
If the performance is good, and there is a clipping here and there, repair it and do not fuss. 99.9999% if the people won't even notice.

[ramses]

Originally Posted by Pashkuli

nevertheless it is not exactly precise in practice.

Exactly. And that is why we err on the side of a LARGER headroom, instead of aiming at the smallest amount of headroom possible. My "rule" is -10dB headroom for "steady state" signals (distorted guitars, compressed bass, synths, and so on) and -20dB for more unpredictable source material (uncompressed ak git, drums, vocals, horns, and so on).

Originally Posted by Pashkuli

Yes, you never know what could happen. So you have to check the Peaks post-recording.

That's what the clip light indicators are for. But. If you set your recording levels properly, on the conservative side, you don't have to do anything more than observe that they remain unlit, and move on with the recording/mixing/whatever. It will save you time and money, and keep the energy of the session up.

Originally Posted by Pashkuli

Andrew can limit to boost, because he already has the files properly prepared for mixing.

Correct, more or less, although I'm sure Andrew Scheps would be able to do a great job even with poorly prepared material. Like audio clipped on accident.

Originally Posted by Pashkuli

I was speaking about smashing the limiter or clipper on the Master with all the signals to get higher volume\loudness.

No, you were not. You might have been thinking that inside your head, but this is what you actually said: "[...] people think that limiting clipping the whole mix at the end is a good idea. It is not. It leads to distortion."

And that's just very rigid, dogmatic and, in important ways, absolutely incorrect. Anyway, I'm glad you have modified that statement somewhat. There are very few definite absolutes in audio, so if you want to make definitive statements, make sure to back them up with actual facts and experience.

[The Kid]

There are a lot of threads about recording headroom.

[Pashkuli]

Originally Posted by The Kid

There are a lot of threads about recording headroom.

True. I have posted there and quite extensively in favour of headroom.
For the newbies and such.

I am sure most of those people either clip their raw performances or record too quiet. It all comes with practice and "getting good at it" (performance and recording).

Originally Posted by ramses

No, you were not. You might have been thinking that inside your head, but this is what you actually said: "[...] people think that limiting clipping the whole mix at the end is a good idea. It is not. It leads to distortion."

Yes, I was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9liqH38PMM

[maxdembo]

Hubris is a good word.

[The Kid]

Originally Posted by Pashkuli

True

This is not one of those threads.

[Pashkuli]

Originally Posted by The Kid

This is not one of those threads.

Good. So, let's stick to the RMS or VU.
I also do not care about LUFS.
I usually get the Mastering meter in three ranges of RMS:
· recoding: very short RMS almost in par with the Peaks but not quite) and red zone at about -12dBfs
· pre-mixing usually do it in audio-editor (Wavosaur and recently Acon Acoustica, bought a license)
· mixing: RMS about 333ms maybe 500ms and 666ms to 1sec. depending on tempo and genre, red threshold at -18dBfs.
· mastering: RMS about 1 sec. and red threshold at -12dBfs

Would have been nice to have an orange or yellow zone (custom as in Samplitude) but not that crucial. Samplitude's metering is much more versatile than Reaper's and it has been like that since Reaper came out.

[The Kid]

For recording and mixing: watch peaks
For mastering: take a peek (pun intended) at loudness (RMS or LUFS)

[antiClick]

Originally Posted by The Kid

Make your music sound good, with the amount of compression and limiting according to the music.
Don't worry about the streaming platforms!

I second this quote.

During the Lowness war I used to aim at about -10dB RMS and -0.2dB TPFS. I'v been during the last years adopting the new -12/-14LUFS standard (aprox -15dB RMS and -1.2dB TPFS) that streaming platforms are supposed to like.

But some genres simply don't like such a high dynamic range.

Make it sound good and don't worry (much) about the levels. If you respect the TruePeak, the streaming services will do their thing and all the music tracks will match in volume.


Please illustrate me if I'm wrong

[serr]

Originally Posted by The Kid

Make your music sound good, with the amount of compression and limiting according to the music.
Don't worry about the streaming platforms!

I still think the most confusion for people starting out comes from the volume war aesthetic. Imagine thinking you had to draw thumbnail artwork at thumbnail size. How do they draw that small?!?! Of course, they shrink it down after. (Spoiler! Sorry.)

So... Learn how to set your volume control first! "This one trick mastering engineers hate when you learn it!"
Then make your music sound good to you.
Then if you need to hit a certain level on some media platform or for some format, do that after.

These formats and services ARE still trying to work with standard audio formats and deliver to devices made to play standard audio formats. Sure, there are always a couple wise guys around. "But ours go to 11." It's not like this stuff is Klingon technology all of a sudden though. (I want to make a joke about modern stuff sounding like Klingon but this polite metronome click stuff with the robot voice warble over it is as far away from that as can be!)

[The Kid]

I you have a friend who happens to run a radio show, beg her/him to play your mixes/masters on FM radio, I love it! Especially when shuffled with other studios material.
Just now, my friend is playing local and independent productions.
So much fun!
EDIT: I measured the song I mixed and mastered (a "Sunny" cover with drums, bass, guitar and vocals) and that was playd on FM today.
RMS -10 (ballpark, just watching the standard meters). LUFS all over the place, increasing with the song's intensity, but from -13 to -10 (using the new loudness plugin).
It worked on radio, but it was close to collapse near the end of the mix, when the band played harder. I guess the mix was TOO DYNAMIC and triggered the radio's limiter. But it was OK.

[ashcat_lt]

My favorite local DJ unfortunately does some pretty heavy handed “mastering” type stuff to everything they play, and it has been pretty unflattering to some of my mixes. It is informative to an extent, but also just kind of sad and makes me wonder what the other things around it actually sound like.

[The Kid]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

My favorite local DJ unfortunately does some pretty heavy handed “mastering” type stuff to everything they play, and it has been pretty unflattering to some of my mixes. It is informative to an extent, but also just kind of sad and makes me wonder what the other things around it actually sound like.

Sorry to hear that!

[ashcat_lt]

I mean radio play has never been a priority for me. Mixes I make for others tend to work, but my own stuff is often wonky on purpose. I appreciate the support on the rare occasions I make something they think they can get away with.

[The Kid]

Radio is just fun for me.