Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-17-2015, 11:02 AM   #1
MikComposer
Human being with feelings
 
MikComposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,989
Default Achieving wide image for bass - looking for suggestions

Hi,

I'm looking for ways of getting mono bass sound wide in stereo. So far I've experimented with 2 tricks:

On copy of bass track:
1. Use auto-panner followed by reverb ( sounds awful )
or
2. Use stereo chorus ( sounds not to bad )

In both cases high-pass that track. But I'm not satisfied with results ( and I also don't know if slight quality loss is due to samples being stereo, but trough setting wide to 0, some sound issues arise ). Would you guys have any suggestion, and/or know any plugins that would make bass sound wider?

Thx
M
__________________
My Royalty Free Music library
MikComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:17 AM   #2
richie43
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
Default

Interesting request, I spend a chunk of time on every mix making sre that my bass end is narrow and not messing up the sides where the mids and high-end can sparkle.... Why are you trying to widen the bass? I am not saying it's bad, but am truly curious. A few plugins come to mind that have width functions for all bands, I have just never actually widened the bass with them.
Check out Mongoose from BOZ Digital, it's the first that came to mind. I'll think of more......
__________________
The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
richie43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:22 AM   #3
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Call me crazy but I'd be tempted to choose number two (chorus/phaser/light envelope filter) but adding some saturation/distortion albeit not too much.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:23 AM   #4
richie43
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Call me crazy but I'd be tempted to choose number two but adding some saturation/distortion albeit not too much.
You're crazy (I'm just following directions....)
__________________
The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
richie43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:23 AM   #5
Heb
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 165
Default

http://www.soundtoys.com/product/microshift
http://eventideplugins.elasticbeanst...actory.jsp?qrz
http://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugins/cmx/

Any of those will do the trick..
use sparingly on a send and make sure to highpass after the plugin for mono compatibility.
Heb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 12:58 PM   #6
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,561
Default

Hmmm...
I guess I haven't had the opportunity to mix a lead bass kind of band (ala Les Claypool) yet...

My first instinct would be to treat it like a guitar (or any other lead instrument source) and create reflections to create the room sound you are looking for. High mid band reflections placed in stereo. Use any simple delay and eq.

Manage the low and sub bands like you normally would. (Don't bounce those frequencies around the room!)
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 02:18 PM   #7
DVDdoug
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
Default

If possible try doubling it. I'm mean true double tracking... Play & record it again.

The lowest frequencies are considered "non directional". (Long wavelengths make it difficult to tell where the sound is coming from). But the harmonics & attack of a bass guitar should be more directional (so you can tell the direction of panned bass guitar).

There are a couple of reasons to keep the deep-bass mono & centered... On most playback systems you need both woofers working together to get good-strong bass. And, on 2.1 or 5.1 systems the bass is summed and you need to make sure it's getting summed properly and in-phase.

So if you do have stereo-bass, I recommend using a plug-in that sums the deep-bass to mono. (Off the top of my head, I can't recommend a specific plug-in.)




P.S.
As Heb says, you'll probably get better results if you keep the bass frequencies clean (I dunno... maybe below 100Hz). That is, add a high-pass filter to your effects chain so the deeper-part of the bass doesn't get muddied-up with chorus or reverb, or whatever.

If you double-track, try the same thing with the 2nd bass. But, if you pan one instrument left and the other right, remember to process the deep-bass from the full-range instrument to the center.

Or.... Maybe just do what everybody else does and pan the doggone bass to the center! Seriously... If you're not getting good results, maybe this isn't the time to break the rules...

Last edited by DVDdoug; 04-17-2015 at 03:17 PM.
DVDdoug is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 02:51 PM   #8
henge1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 479
Default

You'll start to perceive "wideness" with bass sounds at around 250 hz and up. everything below that will be perceived as mono. I've found if you add chorus or a stereo pitch shifting algo at around 500-800 hz and up to your bass sound, it will give a nice stereo spread and keep the bottom tight and focused.
__________________
Anton Evans
Website: www.villageworkscanada.com
henge1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 02:51 PM   #9
MikComposer
Human being with feelings
 
MikComposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,989
Default

Thanks for your replies. I keep sub narrow, around 60hz, always. I've sorted out current bass, with double track ( for mids ) slightly panned to the left, with bit of feed into verb.
__________________
My Royalty Free Music library
MikComposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 03:02 PM   #10
SaulT
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 876
Default

Double-track, pan hard left + right. Send to two channels. First channel, low-pass around some cross-over frequency, say 300-500 Hz, and use something like TP Basslane to mix to mono. Second channel, high-pass at that cross-over frequency, and use a stereo chorus/verb.

If you only have one track to work on, then three channels - the first has the low-pass, one pans hard left, one pans hard right, with each of those running a different IR for different EQs, perhaps with slightly different chorus settings.
SaulT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 03:26 PM   #11
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

I would try to use reaverb with an appropriate impulse file.

Lots of great free stereo impuls-files can be found by the name of "Samplicity M7".

-Michael
mschnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 11:02 PM   #12
DigiDis
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 302
Default

I'm with the don't do it crowd. You want the bass to punch the listener in the chest with a direct hit. Also, sending the most powerful frequencies all over the spectrum makes less room for mids and highs and would probably make for a very muddy sounding mix. My advice would be to channel split the bass (the Reamix book details how to do this easily in Reaper).

Another way would be to make a layered bass sound. Use your bass with something complimentary to the mids and something else that makes it sparkle. Send the mid layer spread out 50% and the high layer 100%. That should give you a good "wall of bass" sound that we typically hear with the "wall of guitars" usually heard in rock music.
DigiDis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 02:33 AM   #13
dub.matze
Human being with feelings
 
dub.matze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 151
Default

mhm .... just duplicate the bass. add saturation to the copy, low cut it and add a chorus. mix them together and add some paralell compression. you can also try to send the low cuted version of your bass to a reverb with a pseudo stereo or a chorus after... you can also try not to with the copy of the bass - just use a 1oct pitched up version for that.
__________________
hello summer: https://soundcloud.com/matze-dub/sets/hallo-sommer

make send controls midi learnable: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=120918
dub.matze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 03:26 AM   #14
beingmf
Human being with feelings
 
beingmf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiDis View Post
I'm with the don't do it crowd. You want the bass to punch the listener in the chest with a direct hit.
This.
If I have the feeling that the bass is too dry (in a sparse arrangement or sometimes also in a very dense arrangement) I would add a little room (high-passed after a tight sounding speaker).
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
beingmf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 04:11 AM   #15
Coachz
Human being with feelings
 
Coachz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,769
Default

track the bass part twice (double track). pan one hard left, one hard right. use two different bass/amp setups for complementary sounds or eq one brighter, growlier etc.
Coachz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 05:32 AM   #16
zookthespook
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: India Mumbai
Posts: 816
Default

Not the expert here
Some tricks that work for me...
1. A mild chorus
2. I use V2 by brainworx where pass upto 100hz to Mono Maker
and then expand the image ..in case the sound lacks highs
i go one step back and add a mild bit crusher ...usually this works
for me..
cheers
zook
zookthespook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 05:55 AM   #17
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Stereo HPF with sine wave LFO (slightly) affecting cut-off frequency (keep it in the low frequency range, e.g. up to 150 Hz or so), with LFOs set to opposite phases for left / right channels. Works great for me: huge stereo image, sums to mono fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by henge1 View Post
You'll start to perceive "wideness" with bass sounds at around 250 hz and up. everything below that will be perceived as mono.
That's not my experience at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiDis View Post
I'm with the don't do it crowd. You want the bass to punch the listener in the chest with a direct hit.
I'm with the "do it!" crowd, and my overdriven TB-303 basslines still punch the listener all over his body, and kick some ass, too.
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 02:20 PM   #18
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
Hi,

I'm looking for ways of getting mono bass sound wide in stereo.

Sounds like a great idea, but if you were going to put the end product on vinyl you'd have the needle jumping out of the grooves constantly. Even short of vinyl -- that is, releasing music as download or CD -- having the bass too wide can cause all manner of problems.

Again sounds good when first mentioned but I say in theory only. In real practice you are only asking for trouble. Better to fake it by adding just a tiny and subtle touch of flange, etc., FX, but even then one must use caution.

I usually work to make my lower bass MONO. Below, say 300Hz or so, my music becomes increasingly more mono-like
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 06:09 PM   #19
Banned
Human being with feelings
 
Banned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
Sounds like a great idea, but if you were going to put the end product on vinyl you'd have the needle jumping out of the grooves constantly. Even short of vinyl -- that is, releasing music as download or CD -- having the bass too wide can cause all manner of problems.
Meh, sure, but premature optimization is a bigger problem itself, imho. If you need to compromise an artistic vision for some format or at some stage of reproduction, just deal with it right then and there. MikComposer isn't asking 'should I limit the width of bass frequencies when mastering for vinyl / mp3 / CD / etc.?'
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
Banned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 07:58 PM   #20
tgraph
Human being with feelings
 
tgraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Silver City, NM
Posts: 526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
I usually work to make my lower bass MONO. Below, say 300Hz or so, my music becomes increasingly more mono-like
Bass is my instrument of choice. And I keep it mono, at least under 120, and up to 300 lots of times. I like some distortion for the extra energy, but that's about it. I run it through Variety of Sound's ThrillseekerLA often. I see no reason to try to spread a bass around, and I do love some bass
tgraph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 06:36 AM   #21
fundorin
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 554
Default

You can always use some double tracking plugins, such as ADT from vacuumsound. http://www.vacuumsound.de/plugins.html
fundorin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 10:11 AM   #22
whiteaxxxe
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: United States of Europe, Germany, Mönchengladbach
Posts: 2,047
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zookthespook View Post
Not the expert here
Some tricks that work for me...
1. A mild chorus
2. I use V2 by brainworx where pass upto 100hz to Mono Maker
and then expand the image ..in case the sound lacks highs
i go one step back and add a mild bit crusher ...usually this works
for me..
cheers
zook
^^^^ that.

as chorus for pseudo-doubling is the best I ever found the Kjaerhuis Classic Chorus, set to "spread", 100% wet and 50% - 100% intensity (to taste).

its correct, that we humans cant determine the direction (so stereo) of sounds beneath 250 - 300hz. so make the deep bass mono and do the stereo-widening-FX above 250hz.
whiteaxxxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 11:27 AM   #23
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
... its correct, that we humans cant determine the direction (so stereo) of sounds beneath 250 - 300hz. so make the deep bass mono and do the stereo-widening-FX above 250hz.
Oh, yes, that's another good point -- the directional problem with bass waves. Then there is the whole Haas effect issue, also not brought up previously here. Made me remember this cool little Clone Ensemble plugin for chorusing bass stuff:

http://www.cloneensemble.com/bc_main.htm

It's quite good for doing FX to bass instruments without total low-freq washout.
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 11:31 AM   #24
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

Aside from all else discussed here, like so many others, my constant striving when dealing with anything BASS coming out of an instrument is to get that incredibly thick depth that doesn't lose focus, etc., etc., and so on. You don't hear truly great bass in so much music coming out of DAWs and home studios, you know.

So I'm never much concerned about stereo spread ... just want that controlled deep thickness. Some use 7 synths on 7 tracks -- whatever -- doubled, layered to attempt what I'm talking about. THAT's bass to me ... that awesome thickness.
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 12:06 PM   #25
Tomm
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
Default

I'd probably go with keeping the bass mono, then panning effects wide (like chorus, distortion, short stereo delay) and using hi-pass on that to keep things sounding tight on the low end or when mixed down. it could be 400Hz or up to 1200Hz even, the bass will still sound as if it's stereo even though technically you are only hearing harmonics from the sides.

Almost everything else in the mix, except maybe kick drum, gets a similar hi-pass filter or low-end cut. it's really key to keeping things clean sounding down there.
Tomm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 01:37 PM   #26
rluka
Human being with feelings
 
rluka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 258
Default

Mid/side recording might just do the trick. You would have your center mono track with your two sides (left and right). An old bass line that comes to mind that I think would benefit from m/s recording would be "Round About" by "Yes" with Chris Squire on bass. Maybe they used m/s for that recording.

I havent tried that yet. Maybe someone here has and can give us a rundown.

Have a great day
Ron L
__________________
Ron L, i7 laptop x64, Win7pro/x64(dual boot), 7200rpm hd, 2 ext. hd, Scarlett 2i4, Event 20/20 audio monitors, 1 ext. video monitor, Novation Launch Control XL, REAPER x64, Sonar Platinum
rluka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 01:42 PM   #27
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

"Roundabout" is rather old and they were still not that rich to have engineers fooling with Mid/Side much, but you could be correct. Think that's a Rick bass turned up on the high mids and trebly. Always loved that song for the bass primarily!
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 02:02 PM   #28
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
Oh, yes, that's another good point -- the directional problem with bass waves. Then there is the whole Haas effect issue, also not brought up previously here. Made me remember this cool little Clone Ensemble plugin for chorusing bass stuff:

http://www.cloneensemble.com/bc_main.htm

It's quite good for doing FX to bass instruments without total low-freq washout.
Haas effect is a great way to add dimension to mono tracks. It's not an issue, it's a tool.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 02:08 PM   #29
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluka View Post
Mid/side recording might just do the trick. You would have your center mono track with your two sides (left and right). An old bass line that comes to mind that I think would benefit from m/s recording would be "Round About" by "Yes" with Chris Squire on bass. Maybe they used m/s for that recording.

I havent tried that yet. Maybe someone here has and can give us a rundown.

Have a great day
Ron L
You can not process a mono track mid-side.

Just sayin.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 02:36 PM   #30
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
Haas effect is a great way to add dimension to mono tracks. It's not an issue, it's a tool.
You should have looked over the plugin I linked before commenting. It's a chorus that uses Haas Effect to the user's advantage. The plugin -- THAT'S the tool.
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 02:55 PM   #31
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
You should have looked over the plugin I linked before commenting. It's a chorus that uses Haas Effect to the user's advantage. The plugin -- THAT'S the tool.
Haas isn't complex. A delay and pitch plugin has all the Haas you can handle.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 02:55 PM   #32
PatJ
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 20
Default

I saw this on Steven Slate's twitter feed and it works pretty well: set up an aux bus and send your bass track there. Put on a thick, wide chorus and high pass at 300 hz. Mix to taste. It definitely adds that 10-15%, similar to parallel compression, that will bring out the character of the instrument.
PatJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 03:52 AM   #33
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

Really silly, obvious suggestion:
You DID already try setting the width control on the bass track to 100%, didnt you?
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 10:26 AM   #34
bozmillar
Human being with feelings
 
bozmillar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 623
Default

Do you happen to have any songs that feature a wide bass sound? It would probably be easier to give ideas if we could hear the sound you are shooting for. There are many ways to make something mono sound stereo, but they all have different pros/cons.

More often than not, a wide bass sound is only wide in the high frequencies. If you are doing electronic music, then you can just double your bass line an octave or two higher with another synth that has some width so that the width isn't taking place on the low frequencies.

One thing you could try is Voxengo's stereo touch (https://www.voxengo.com/product/stereotouch/) It has a high pass filter that will prevent it from performing the widening on the low frequencies, plus it will not screw up your mono compatablility in the high end.
__________________
http://www.bozdigitallabs.com
bozmillar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2015, 10:55 AM   #35
JeffreyET
Human being with feelings
 
JeffreyET's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
Posts: 405
Default

I pay more attention to the bass than anything else in a track - I just LOVE the classic 'prog Ric' and dUg Pinnick tones. Never been able to nail dUg, but I have gotten nice wide 'Squire-esqe' tones by recording DI stereo (2 pickups to 2 tracks), then separate processing using a few different guitar amp modelers, (usually 2 in series with very gentle gain), notch EQ if needed, and Thrillseeker compression. I only pan 20-30%, usually keep one center. I suppose you could dupe a single track & do this too. I hear phasing problems in the bass range if I don't keep 2 tracks of a single performance precisely aligned, so I have never even tried to double track a bassline..
__________________
Jeffrey's REAPER tracks Are on Spotify as well as most other streaming services, under the name Karmic Cage.
JeffreyET is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2015, 11:46 AM   #36
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Big long wavelengths are especially susceptible to phase problems, so doubling (at least on the bottom end) is touchy. Any use of Haas or other stereo treatment should be applied to the higher frequencies, as mentioned by some smart person up-thread. Henge1 I think. That guy. Do that.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.