Recording help, latency- What is my problem?!

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Hello everyone!

Please bear with me, as I am by no means a recording expert or... audiophile whatever you call it.. I will do my best to explain my issue in detail.

I have had reaper for over a year. I am very familiar with it, how it works, ad how to use it. however, I recently re-did my comptuer and had to reinstall reaper. I did, no problemo but since then I have had EXTREME latency problems and basically haven't been able to record for... months. I haven't had a need to record except for my own projects so I have delayed trying to find the source of the issue.. However, I need to be able to record now and I can't. Here is my issue:

I record one single track to a metronome. After recording I decide to record a second track over top that one. When i record it sounds great in my ears, everything sounds awesome, and on beat. But then I play pack and the recording is all OVER the place! It seems to get worse as the recording progresses... the first 10 seconds everything will be on beat but it will slowly get worse and worse and worse till tracks are like 30 seconds apart! Idk what to do to fix this... My biggest complaint is that it never did this before! never once did i have a problem with reaper. but when i re-installed it I seem to have one now.. I have tried everything I know to fix this. I've updated my M-track drivers, change XLR and 1/4" chords. I've changed instruments, tried ASIO, directSound, WaveOut and every other driver in Reaper. I've checked and unchecked every buffer box and sample rate size under devices. I even bought a new mixer (Xenex X1222)and plugged that in and didn't get any luck. I didn't buy the mixer as a solution to fixing the problem, I just am expanding my recording and needed it. I thought maybe the M-track was the problem for whatever reason...

I have no idea what else to do. I will post screenshots, show everything i have set, send pictures of my device, jump through a flaming hoop, whatever it is that I need to do to find a way to fix this. I reall ycould use your guys expertise.. It is absolutly baffling to me, i have read every article and forum post on how to fix it, and no dice. I've reinstalled ASIO as well... I just don't know what else I need to do. Any help would be appriciated, thanks!

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Bump!

[ivansc]

12hrs and 8 minutes and you bump?

Half the world is still asleep.

Let me get coffee....

O.K. Let us have the baseline info first.

cpu type and speed, amount of ram, operating system version (inc 32 bit or 64)
and of course what version of Reaper.

And the usual trite piece of advice, but one that does at least help reassure you that you didnt mess something up within reaper settings your self. Either uninstall reaper then download and do a new fresh install, or if you want to keep your existing install download and do a portable install & see if a new project in that does the same thing.

If you still have the same issues, you might want to snapshot your settings within the ASIO setup window, just in case.
One other thing: when you say recording the second track over the top of the first, are you doing a second take on the same track or actually recording a second track separately?

[thequietroom]

couple things off the cuff..

check your playback rate on the transport.. Ive bumped this and made a mess of projects before

try resetting to factory defaults.. if you have a custom config (toolbars layouts etc), save your config file somewhere safe

you could also maybe try system restore.. if something is wrong with windows (assuming you are using windows)
windows.. but thats up to you.. that comes with some baggage too. Its most likely an issue with reaper or sound config.. so in that case I dont think system restore would help.. but if its something wierd in windows.. maybe it will

if not, give us more to go on as Ivan suggested

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Alright... So here we go..

I have posted screenshots of everything you asked. The asio configuration is set to 512 samples for buffer size.. the lowest i can go is 384 before the tracks start skipping. But I can't find any buffer size that makes any difference. the tracks are too jumbled to tell if one is behind more with less buffer size or more buffer size... I tried restoring factory defaults, that didn't seem to help. Also, @thequietroom I am unsure what playback rate on the transport is... Other then that I did everything you guys suggested except for restoring my computer and reinstalling Reaper, which is my next step if whatever you guys suggest next doesn't work.. Thanks for all the help!

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Additional screenies.... Also I am using Version 4.61 as you can see at the top

[WalkingGeekSquad]

I have since updated to the latest version (4.77) and reinstalled it. The x64 version. Reinstalled ASIO and no dice. Tried DirectSound and same result... Sometimes it sounds better then others.. like sometimes if i start it at the start of the recording it sounds great! for about 30 seconds.. then turns to crap. but sometimes if I start it like 15 seconds into the recording, it's just instantly bad.. so puzzled

[Time Waster]

When you say it 'sounds like crap', what do you mean exactly? In my experience, if the issue is the sound card or divers, buffer size etc, the sound will break up and stutter, but the tracks don't get out of sync. From your description, it sounds like you are saying that the playback rates of the two tracks are different, so they start off in sync but gradually move out of sync? If so, that is probably not a sound device issue. To get get different playback rates, you would have had to have stretched one of the items, or something like that.

Is it possible to record a sample of the output (on another device) and post it here?

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Yes I could post something here tomorrow morning. When I say it sounds bad I mean it's out of sync. Slowly drifting more and more out of sync. I'm not touching the tracks or moving them at all. Literally I'll put in a metronome track, record for 30 seconds,hit save and playback and it will be out of whack. No matter what I do they won't stay in sync and I have no clue what to do to fix that. What you said is exactly right. The playback rates are different and get worse as it goes on.

[Mink99]

Two additional thoughts :

You said you upgraded the m-track drivers and have a Xenix mixer. You screenshots point to an asio4all installation. Also you mentioned that you reinstalled asio which is not possible because asio cannot be installed, it is a definition of a standard.

First check whether the setup of your machine has any flaws. Get the latencymon tool and run it. There can be one driver, even for something else, that breaks the whole setup.

If there are some problems stated from that tool, please report back.

Second, get the latest drivers for your x1222 , install & enable them in reaper, as asio drivers, not as asio4all.
Then recheck.

[ivansc]

As stated above, get rid of ASIO4ALL and reinstall the correct drivers for the M-Track.

Once you have done this, start again in preferences and see how your ASIO window settings can deal with lower buffer settings than 512 without cracking up.

I suspect that once you actually have your ASIO control window set right your problem will be solved.


And then maybe we can look at incorporating that mixer into things.

And this next is relatively easy to try and wont mess up your existing raper. Instructions for doing a portable install are in the manual.

"if you want to keep your existing install download and do a portable install & see if a new project in that does the same thing."

From my original post.

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Alrightyyyy!

Progress!! So I ran LatencyMon and it found some issues, none of which appered to make a tremendous amount of sense to me but all stuff i am fairly cabale at resolving, as my computer knowledge reaches farther then my audio lol. HOwever, I did not try any of that before trying what you guys asked.
1. I uninstalled ASIO4ALL completly.
2. I went to M-track drivers online and downlaoded the windows 8 64 bit Drivers. I have 8.1 and they had an option for 8.1 however... they had none So i went with just 64 bit windows 8 to see if that was a possible solution. It appeared to work as i was able to download and install the drivers just fine.
3. With ASIO4ALL gone, i re booted up REaper.
4. It asked me to find my audio device and underneath the ASIO tab it showed M-track quad four driver (like the website said it should) and I had not seen that before. I went ahead and useed it and didn't check/uncheck any boxes and started a new track. I put a 88 BPM metronome track, a piano down on top of that and then a pad over that.
5. Success!!! I was recording with M-track and the M-track "configuration window" went from "idle" to "streaming"
6. It appears to have little to no latency... While recording isn't totally my think, I am a very good musician with a really good ear for these type of things, so it's possible that any "latency" i possiblly heard was me being overly critical or just hearing it when nobody else can. It's happened before, i've complained about latency in a project and 10 other people will be like, dude i don't know what you are talking about it sounds fine.
7. I re-ran LatencyMon and no issues as you can see in the screenshot.
8. THANK YOU! At the worst I can now record with the M-track. I can't thank you enough. cookies for all of you! (the non-trackable ones

On to the next step....

The Xenyx Mixer..

Alright, so one thing to know about this mixer. It has NO DRIVERS period. It says that on every website you buy it says it on the box and on Behringer's website. They don't exsist.... Which makes things very intresting...

I vaguly rember reading something about whatever USB port you plug the mixer into the first time, is the only one like that you ever CAN plug it into again? Super weird. I know it was one of the two on the right side, I tried both and neither of them did anything to change anything in Reaper. It simply tells me that the m-track is no long plugged in, yada yada yada.

It WAS finding this mixer before when I had ASIO4ALL installed.. It was under (USB AUdio Codec 2) the whole time.

However, I am unsure what to do to have Reaper find the mixer yet again. Like I said there is no drivers... I searched everywhere on my computer to possiblly remove the "hardwired to the one USB port" thing and no luck... The mixer itself is fully functional and working. It just isn't being found in reaper...

Suggestions??

Thanks again so much!

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Latency Mon and new "device" settings for the M-track under Reaper.

[ivansc]

Well done! Next step if you have not already done so is to press that rectangular "ASIO configuration" button in your last screenshot.
It should open the dialogue for yor M-Track's ASIO settings.

If you are already happy with the amount of latency that you are getting, just have a look around in there and leave well enough alone for the tie bing.
But later when you are a bit more confident you can try lowering the ASIO buffer setting a little to see if you can get even lower latency.

And dont forget to make sure you have enabled all the inuts and outputs that you an in the drop down menus.


And now the bad news. You cant use both the MTrack and the Xenyx mixer as interfaces using ASIO.

ASIO only allows one device at a time.

However it really depends on how you want to us the Xenyx.
From memory, you can only actually us a single stereo out from the Xenyx via usb anyway, in which case you might as well just use it as a big box full of microphone pres, eqs and line inputs.

If it was me I would be connecting the left and right master outs of the Xenyx into the MTrack's line ins and then just piping the signal from each channel or pair of channels to whatever track you want inside reaper.
Unfortunately if you want to record more than 2 things at the same time you cant do it with either the Xenyx or the Mtrack and still wind up with each source going to a separate track.

Have a think about it and tell us how you planned to use the mixer and how you record.
If you are like most of us on here, doing it all yourself, you dont need need the Xenyx frankly.

[WalkingGeekSquad]

Alright, here is a quick drum recording of "Good Times". I know I didn't drum great on this but there was a few times where I felt that it sounded a little off when I knew it wasn't. I just recorded this with an overhead mic, I understand the quality of it isn't fantastic, just something to go off of. Couldn't upload to soundcloud cause of legal reasons so it's on Drive

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2O...ew?usp=sharing

[SaulT]

I ran into this exact issue. I was clapping along to a metronome and was trying to figure out why I was slowly dropping out of time compared to a Reaper click track. It turned out that the metronome was slowly dropping out of time. The timing crystal must have been off or wasn't precisely calibrated or it was old, who knows.

Moral of the story? Don't trust your metronome to be perfect.

[dea-man]

Originally Posted by SaulT

I ran into this exact issue. I was clapping along to a metronome and was trying to figure out why I was slowly dropping out of time compared to a Reaper click track. It turned out that the metronome was slowly dropping out of time. The timing crystal must have been off or wasn't precisely calibrated or it was old, who knows.

Moral of the story? Don't trust your metronome to be perfect.

What?

I didn't even know such a scenario was possible!

[serr]

Nothing runs in sync by itself.
Even the ever so accurate digital clocks we have now.

Just like you have to connect multiple digital devices' sample rate clocks together with a wire to run them in sync, the same applies to metronomes, click tracks, & grids.

You need to keep your point of reference.

If you record to a metronome (drum machine or other device) and intend to import this into a DAW for further work...

Record the metronome to a track for reference.

If you aim to use a grid to hammer out a different arrangement by snapping song sections around by bars and beats, you first need to lay down a grid that conforms to the timing in your click track. Not the other way around.

If you don't aim to do such grid requiring work and just need a reference for an isolated edit or 2, then use your click track for reference and don't waste time syncing up a grid to your recorded click.


System latency and getting it low enough for live performance through fx or running live sound is another matter as noted.

Reaper gives you the controls to set your I/O buffer (called block size in Reaper). If your hardware physically doesn't run fast enough for live performance latency... well, then you will not be able to set the buffer low enough and still have stable operation and you will have to spend $$ on something. If it does, off you go!

[Time Waster]

Originally Posted by WalkingGeekSquad

...........
I record one single track to a metronome. .....

LOL. I assumed you meant Reaper's inbuilt metronome. I would never have imagined trying to record a second track without cuing from the first track, or at least using a synchronised metronome!

[dea-man]

Oh, wait!

The metronome was an external metronome!

[Mink99]

Only for the records :

A driver for the x1222 USB can be downloaded from :

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X1222USB.aspx

At the bottom is a link to the 64 bit driver v2.8.40 for vista, win7 and win 8 . I would not call this "absolutely no driver "

Maybe this driver could provide a better performance than the other one. As ivansc correctly stated, there can be only one, but maybe this one could give a lower latency.

[bobobo]

Using more than one Asio-Device with Asio4All
(yes,yes, outcasted above but still worth to take a closer look at)
the link also contains some tips to minimize or hide the the drifting
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb0...pcmusician.htm

[ivansc]

I thought he already said he could not get ASIO4ALL to work right with either the MTrak or the Behri?
Anyway it looks like a lot of his problems are sorted.

Interesting about the metronome..... I had a mental image of one of those old timey wooden ones with a sliding weight on the pendulum!

[bobobo]

Originally Posted by ivansc

I thought he already said he could not get ASIO4ALL to work right with either the MTrak or the Behri?
Anyway it looks like a lot of his problems are sorted.

Interesting about the metronome..... I had a mental image of one of those old timey wooden ones with a sliding weight on the pendulum!

he had done so, but it may be worth reading the article as it circles
around the same theme