v5.81pre3 - April 29 2018

[FnA]

v5.81pre3 - April 29 2018

• + MIDI editor: fix maximize state incorrectly being reset
• # Notation: improved logic to ensure a particular time (e.g. edit cursor) is visible
• # Notation: update display when moving edit cursor via action

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by FnA

[*]# Notation: update display when moving edit cursor via action[/list]

Same should be done in event list when changing edit cursor via mouse/action.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=206105

[FnA]

I notice View: go to edit cursor doesn't work there.

[Neutronic]

Really appreciate all the ME navigation enhancements. Would be great to get "zoom undo/redo" and "move notes/events 1 tick left/right" actions for the editor. Thanks for the polish!

[jbraner]

Hi,
I'm trying this pre-release to see what the MIDI editing improvements look like.
If I have 4 MIDI items for drum parts - 8 bars each, and I choose one in arranger and double click - that opens the MIDI editor and the media item is active.
(so far so good)
If I want to move to the next media item (to make it active) - I would normally just go into the space of the next item and double click - then *that* media item would be active.
With this pre-release - it extends the current media item to where I clicked. Why would I want to do that?
I know I can go to the track list and choose the next media item - but double clicking in the piano roll view is easier.
This new behaviour doesn't seem like a step forward.

To be honest - it would be a lot easier if all the media items on a track were active in the MIDI editor (I have chosen "open all MIDI on the same track) - but "one item at a time" isn't *too* bad ;-)

[jbraner]

I was also trying this pre-release to see if the MIDI editor snapping behaviour has changed. I'm still a little new to Reaper (but using DAWs for many years) and still can't get my head around why, with relative snapping enabled, MIDI notes can still be snapped to the relative position AND the grid.

When the relative position is only a few ticks from a grid line, and you're not zoomed right in (not an unusual situation) - it is very easy to move/copy a MIDI note and snap it *to* the grid. I'm doing it all the time - and I don't want to do it. I just want to move/copy notes - and maintain their position *relative* to the grid.

I'm editing drum parts that are not quantised. I certainly don't want to start (100%) quantising them just becase I'm moving/copying a few notes.

I'm open to suggestions to any settings I can try - to make this work for me. Otherwise - is this something the devs can take a look at?

Rgds,

[mccrabney]

With this pre-release - it extends the current media item to where I clicked. Why would I want to do that?

there are use cases where this would be desirable, but i do wish there was an option to never overlap midi items on a track. ever. i never have use for this and it only ever causes problems or unexpected behavior. if a user drags and drops a midi item over another, i'd expect them to merge into 1 file as if glued upon mouseclick release

To be honest - it would be a lot easier if all the media items on a track were active in the MIDI editor (I have chosen "open all MIDI on the same track) - but "one item at a time" isn't *too* bad ;-)

plus 100000. i don't know how feasible it is but the ideal would be for all items to be active WITHOUT having to glue them together. full-track active is the function goal, full track editability is the workaround we currently use to get there...

[EvilDragon]

This has been there for quite some time now... There's also an option inside MIDI editor not to extend item boundaries when trying to move events outside of those boundaries.

(Use double-click mouse modifier in MIDI note context to switch another inactive item to being active.)

[mccrabney]

yes this solves half of the problem, but prevents users from drawing in notes outside of a midi item. if you use fullscreen midi editor, you'd have to close the ME, write in a new item in arrange, and then enter the new midi item just to write in a note, or copy a note into that position. (or just record it via midi overdub, but this doesn't help mousing/copying workflow)

if the midi editor just ... considered the whole trackspace rather than looking for an item, we'd be better off. in this case, a user would be able to copy or draw notes into empty space. i'd be fine if this would automatically create new items.

it'd be like having a track-wide midi item that is active in the editor, but we wouldn't lose all of the excellent zoom and focus functionality that exists when handling multiple items.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

yes this solves half of the problem, but prevents users from drawing in notes outside of a midi item. if you use fullscreen midi editor, you'd have to close the ME, write in a new item in arrange, and then enter the new midi item just to write in a note, or copy a note into that position. (or just record it via midi overdub, but this doesn't help mousing/copying workflow)

if the midi editor just ... considered the whole trackspace rather than looking for an item, we'd be better off. in this case, a user would be able to copy or draw notes into empty space. i'd be fine if this would automatically create new items.

it'd be like having a track-wide midi item that is active in the editor, but we wouldn't lose all of the excellent zoom and focus functionality that exists when handling multiple items.

Yes, as written in other post, it is crucial to not have item limited by boundaries, only playable area, but notes should be placed freely.

Also, ED, unless I'm missing something, this option doesn't prevent bound pooling notes with it when extending it to the left.

[jbraner]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

This has been there for quite some time now... There's also an option inside MIDI editor not to extend item boundaries when trying to move events outside of those boundaries.

(Use double-click mouse modifier in MIDI note context to switch another inactive item to being active.)

OK - I went back to 5.80 (release) and this version *does* actually select all the MIDI items on the track. Only one is active - but the rest are "there" - so that "double click outside the bounds..." setting doesn't matter. The same thing happens whether it's selected or not - it just makes the new item "active".
(yay, I'm not losing my mind)

So, in the pre-release, you have to run an action "Contents: Display all MIDI media items on this track" to get this. So this is worse. All items should be selected when you're set for "open all MIDI on the same track"


(pre release doesn't obey this)


Does this (my post) make sense?

[EvilDragon]

If you want all track items to be selected when you double-click on ONE of them (and all others weren't selected before), you need to link selection to visibility and/or editability.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

if the midi editor just ... considered the whole trackspace rather than looking for an item, we'd be better off. in this case, a user would be able to copy or draw notes into empty space. i'd be fine if this would automatically create new items.

Considering how you can have multiple items on a track in Reaper, on top of each other, FIPM mode, and all other niceties, somehow I'm not sure we'll see that happen...

Also do note that current MIDI editor was extended around v4. Previously all we COULD was edit one item at a time, hence the current "only one item can be active" limitation, it ties into ReaScript and actions and so on. Changing this would break an awful lot of stuff.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by jbraner

So, in the pre-release, you have to run an action "Contents: Display all MIDI media items on this track" to get this. So this is worse. All items should be selected when you're set for "open all MIDI on the same track"


(pre release doesn't obey this)


Does this (my post) make sense?

I think if you disable the option for "selection is linked to visibility" (and possibly also disable "selection is linked to editability") it will behave more as you expect. In these builds "selection is linked to visibility" is now off by default (for new installs), but everybody going between 5.80 and this will likely see it enabled by default.

[mccrabney]

ED i think you quoted one part of my comment and discussed another, so apologies if i'm talking past you here. quote edited below to provide context: correct me if necessary, and Cockos, please shut down the convo as off-topic if this is unhelpful noise.

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Considering how you can have multiple items on a track in Reaper, on top of each other, FIPM mode, and all other niceties, somehow I'm not sure we'll [non-overlapping midi items] happen...

i get what you're saying, but conversely, BECAUSE we have all of those niceties like FIPM, one could hope that we could have more niceties like non-overlapping midi options. FIPM is not a rule, or default, after all.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Considering how you can have multiple items on a track in Reaper, on top of each other, FIPM mode, and all other niceties, somehow I'm not sure we'll see that happen...

Also do note that current MIDI editor was extended around v4. Previously all we COULD was edit one item at a time, hence the current "only one item can be active" limitation, it ties into ReaScript and actions and so on. Changing this would break an awful lot of stuff.

But it shouldn't be a problem for items overlapping one another. Top/selected item should be the one the editor focuses on, still allowing for moving and placing notes outside boundary across whole track space. Also, notes shouldn't cut off if they extend outside boundary, but should be played to their end.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

But it shouldn't be a problem for items overlapping one another. Top/selected item should be the one the editor focuses on

...and then you cannot edit the item(s) under that top item. No, that's not a solution.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

...and then you cannot edit the item(s) under that top item. No, that's not a solution.

How come? You just select the other item if you want to edit it. Hate to bring this one up again... but in cubase there is no problem with overlapping items, while you still can edit across the whole track space.

[mccrabney]

Also, notes shouldn't cut off if they extend outside boundary, but should be played to their end.

agree. see MPC jjos for examples of this, and probably countless other hardware sequencers. midi notes trail out of the container. it's ugly to display visually, but it's super helpful because moving the container moves the note, but the note always sticks out of the item like a tail.

this also is important compositionally, because of situations like this:

here we have a chord over a beat.



the chord's notes strike at all the same time. you decide that sounds crappy, so you strum instead:



in order to strum, i have to extend the item end. desired behavior here would be for the item to end at the same time as the track below, with the note ends trailing out of the item bounds.

yes, this would mean that if you played from the beginning of my graphic, you wouldn't have a full chord, you'd have just the top note of that chord. however, on loop, you'd have the fulls strum.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

agree. see MPC jjos for examples of this, and probably countless other hardware sequencers. midi notes trail out of the container. it's ugly to display visually, but it's super helpful because moving the container moves the note, but the note always sticks out of the item like a tail.

this also is important compositionally, because of situations like this:

here we have a chord over a beat.



the chord's notes strike at all the same time. you decide that sounds crappy, so you strum instead:



in order to strum, i have to extend the item end. desired behavior here would be for the item to end at the same time as the track below, with the note ends trailing out of the item bounds.

yes, this would mean that if you played from the beginning of my graphic, you wouldn't have a full chord, you'd have just the top note of that chord. however, on loop, you'd have the fulls strum.

I think they should extend both ways, so if you'd want, you could just extend beginning of first loop to the left.

[mccrabney]

maybe. i don't use looped or pooled items of any kind (preferring to item copies instead)so i can't comment on that.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

maybe. i don't use looped or pooled items of any kind (preferring to item copies instead)so i can't comment on that.

Yeah, well, just one of the possibilities.

[mccrabney]

i did this cuz i wanted to see how bad it looked, and it's not as bad as i thought. this is what we're talking about. this behavior is very common and very useful. note that in this looped time selection, the play cursor would never actually hit the trailing note ends--that doesn't mean the note never receives its noteoff.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Originally Posted by FnA

# Notation: update display when moving edit cursor via action

The problem I reported is fixed. Thank you very much!!!

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

i did this cuz i wanted to see how bad it looked, and it's not as bad as i thought. this is what we're talking about. this behavior is very common and very useful. note that in this looped time selection, the play cursor would never actually hit the trailing note ends--that doesn't mean the note never receives its noteoff.

Also, those notes ends don't need to be visible in arranger, only sustained in playback.

[jbraner]

Originally Posted by Justin

I think if you disable the option for "selection is linked to visibility" (and possibly also disable "selection is linked to editability") it will behave more as you expect. In these builds "selection is linked to visibility" is now off by default (for new installs), but everybody going between 5.80 and this will likely see it enabled by default.

Sorry if there are a few "strands" going on here
Thanks Justin - disabling both makes the double click outside the "active" item work like 5.80.
I don't really get what these two settings are for anyway ;-)
(disabling them in 5.80 is fine too - it's just a little different in what you initially see when the MIDI editor opens.)

If you want all track items to be selected when you double-click on ONE of them (and all others weren't selected before), you need to link selection to visibility and/or editability.

Thanks ED - as above, I don't really get what use these settings are anyway - but that can be a conversation for another time ;-)

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by jbraner

Thanks ED - as above, I don't really get what use these settings are anyway - but that can be a conversation for another time ;-)

Once you use more than one monitor, they are absolutely useful. Like so: https://i.imgur.com/E25nUYC.gifv

[jbraner]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Also do note that current MIDI editor was extended around v4. Previously all we COULD was edit one item at a time, hence the current "only one item can be active" limitation, it ties into ReaScript and actions and so on. Changing this would break an awful lot of stuff.

Stop me if I'm being naive - what about redoing the MIDI editor, but leave the ability to toggle on/off the current one? - call it "compatability mode"

[jbraner]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Once you use more than one monitor, they are absolutely useful. Like so: https://i.imgur.com/E25nUYC.gifv

Aha! OK, I get it ;-)

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by jbraner

Stop me if I'm being naive - what about redoing the MIDI editor, but leave the ability to toggle on/off the current one? - call it "compatability mode"

Certainly not impossible, but try convincing devs to do that... it ain't happening, I'd say. They're going with what they've designed so far, it's pretty apparent.

[jbraner]

Well, I'm trying my best to get along with this MIDI editor

[jbraner]

I've just noticed something very nice that's different in the MIDI editor.

- Set up a loop - say 8 bars.
- now zoom in a little so there are only 4 bars on the screen
- move cursor to bar 6 - nothing is playing.
- rewind to the beginning of the loop (off screen to the left by 2 bars or so) but don't hit play yet.

Previously, the screen wouldn't move left (to the beginning of the loop) until you hit play - but now the screen moves with the rewind.

This is VERY welcome! Thank You!

[jbraner]

Sorry for all the questions, but here's another one.

When you copy or move a MIDI note (mouse modifier "move note" or "copy note") that note remains "selected".
Is there a way to move/copy and *unselect* - all in one mouse modifier?
Usually, after you copy/move the note - you're done with it.
When you select another one to work on - it usually unselects the previous one - but not always. That's when you get in trouble because you start editing the previously select note along with the one you intended to work on.


There isn't really an "action" for move/copy that could be used in a custom action (the unselect part is easy) - I think it needs to be part of the mouse modifier.

Is there a way to do this?
Or is it easy to implement? (copy and unselect/move and unselect)
(since we're working in th eMIDI editor at the moment...)

[DANIELE]

Can I suggest the possibility of editing the cc lanes of the midi editor from the arranger? It would be useful.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by DANIELE

Can I suggest the possibility of editing the cc lanes of the midi editor from the arranger?

Use MIDI inline editor perhaps?

[EvilDragon]

Yes, inline editor is for stuff like that.

[DANIELE]

Originally Posted by vitalker

Use MIDI inline editor perhaps?

How can I edit CC lanes from inline editor? From what I see I can edit notes only.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by DANIELE

How can I edit CC lanes from inline editor? From what I see I can edit notes only.

[juliansader]

Much of the discussion about the recent pre-releases focused on how to control MIDI item activation, editability and visibility via the arrange view. (Particularly when working without the Track List, or if the Track List is too long and clumsy.)

However, the options are rather limited, since a single value, Selection, must control at least three settings: activation, editability and visibility. If, for example, "Selection is linked to editability" then visibility cannot be changed via the arrange view. And if an item is clicked to make it active, all the other items lose their selection and their editability.

It may therefore be useful to have some Actions to set the activation/editable/visible status of the MIDI item under the mouse (without affecting selection). These Actions can be linked to keyboard shortcuts, or even mouse modifiers if the user so wishes.

As an example, using these actions, the mouse can be swiped across multiple items while holding a shortcut to make the items visible, without changing their selection.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by juliansader

If, for example, "Selection is linked to editability" then visibility cannot be changed via the arrange view. And if an item is clicked to make it active, all the other items lose their selection and their editability.

Well in that case you'd use both links, to editability AND visibility. And use double-clicks instead of single-clicks to retain the selection, but change the active item.