Intermittent issue transferring tapes

[ptourin]

I expect this will turn out to be a newbie config issue - hope someone can set me straight.
I'm transferring a big batch of old concert tapes that we recorded on DAT - moving them onto HD so I can break them into tracks and start cleaning them up. The setup is Sony DAT recorder to a MacBook Pro Retina via a Scarlett 6i6 - SPDIF connection from Sony to the 6i6. This has worked well sometimes, but not always. Here's the problem: I create a project for a new tape. I create a stereo track. The Sony is on, and sync is coming from the Sony. On 3 tapes, this worked fine - the Reaper meters kicked and I simply started the DAT player, hit Record in Reaper and let 'er rip. But other times, I go through this process but don't see a signal from the DAT. I see everything - all the gear is there - but I simply can't get a signal off the DAT. I can listen via the headphone out on the DAT, so it's playing, but no signal in the 6i6 headphone monitor and no meter action in Reaper.

Any advice greatly appreciated - I haven't played with audio editing in some years, never on a Mac and never with Reaper, so I do feel a bit like I'm at Square 1. Thanks - Peter

[Stella645]

Are sample rates of those recordings the same as ones that worked?

[ptourin]

The 3 concerts that worked were all at 44.1 - I believe we recorded all concerts at 44.1, though it was 20 years ago and I can't be sure. If some were not recorded at 44.1, they would have been recorded at 48. If I've already set up a project for one of the DATs that doesn't display, can I check this by going to File/Project Settings and changing the sample rate from 44.1 to 48? Or can't you change the sample rate after you've created a project?

If I'm taking SPDIF sync signal from the DAT, wouldn't this be a non-issue?

I just tried several other tapes - same problem. Tape is playing - I have output in the DAT headphone jack, DAT meters show the signal. I close all projects, create a track - it automatically configures as SPDIF/stereo. I hit the record arm button - and see nothing at all, no 2 tracks displaying on the time line, no meters kicking. No audio from the 6i6 Monitor 1 output.

[ptourin]

I may have found it. I just opened the Focusrite Control for the 6i6. Sample rate was set to 44.1. I switched it to 48 and now I've got action in Reaper. It looks like we did recordings at 2 different rates.

[Stella645]

First rule of digital transfer.
Sample Rate should match on the sending device, receiving device and usually in the software settings (project setup in this case). Reaper can, unlike most software play back multi rates by sample rate converting on the fly so not exactly sure how it deals with recording a 48k file if you had the project set 44.1.

I would always set to match to be on the safe side. If the wav header get's written incorrectly you may have speed/pitch problems in other software.

[Bri1]

If I'm taking SPDIF sync signal from the DAT, wouldn't this be a non-issue?

^eyyo-apparently so in some cases,but not all >(spdif signal can be reaconverted to analog)< --bit different 4me on windoze--still using a tascam da-20 as a 2nd monitoring + backup system--kinda reaverse what your doing.. is good practice to keep all recordings/interfacings @ 1set rate..
also use the spdif to feed another similar interface at same time and found it all works 'smoother' at 48khz here..
i only stick with 48khz because of dat+ my interface loosing fx over 48khz+obs capturing @ 48khz+ quicker editing- would be a higher rate fulltime otherwise...
sometimes software updates cause reasets of settings which can be confusing if not tracked reagular. :/

[ptourin]

It's looking like I'm going to have some concert tapes recorded at 44.1 and others at 48. Suppose I transfer them all without any rate conversion. These are live concert tapes and I only see 2 possible uses for them: record CDs to send to the performers for nostalgia's sake, or post tracks to YouTube. Any advice on bitrate for these transfers? Should I just leave them at whatever rate they were recorded at, and convert later if necessary? For example, I'd have to convert any of the 48 tapes if I wanted to send out CD's of the performances. Best to copy them with no conversion and only change later if I decide to do something with them?

[Bri1]

Best to copy them with no conversion and only change later if I decide to do something with them?

^well m8-you got options these dayzzz!- do not know which is 'best'.. 1 option is to take analog feed from dat-> set your new recording interface to 96khz and reaprocess your rec input with some nice fx..
then create a 44.1/48khz lossless or lossy format-> hit render>> for sharez..

cleanup,and then realax! =)

[ptourin]

Well I was about to try analogue transfer after 3 days of not figuring out how to get the SPDIF transfer working. It just happened that my first 3 tapes were 44.1 so they worked, and then my next 3 were 48 so they didn't - I just couldn't put 2 and 2 together (or 3 and 3, as it were)...

[ptourin]

I'm still missing something. I know I have some tapes that are at 44.1 and others at 48. But I have one that I can't get to record in Reaper, so there's something I must still be missing.

Scarlett 6i6 - in the Focusrite control I go to device settings, where I can select either 44.1 or 48, and either internal or S/PDIF clock source. If I want to sync to the DAT's clock, don't I set this to S/PDIF?

Reaper - where do I set the clock and sync? There's Reaper Preferences/Device - there's a place to enter the rate. It shows the 6i6 as the audio device, and "allow projects to override device sample rate is checked". There's also File/Project Settings, where I can choose either sample rate.

I keep changing these settings, but I can't get this tape to register in Reaper. Am I missing a setting, or do I need to close and reopen Reaper each time I make changes?

[Bri1]

Am I missing a setting, or do I need to close and reopen Reaper each time I make changes?

allo-a setting or 2 maybe? --- on device here there is also a lp 32khz rec mode.
i do not think reaper actually offers any specific interfacing sync settings-- i just set to record spdif strip inputs without any sync- as i've not needed sync like that tbh.
the 2 modes i get on an emu interface is ebu or aes spdif..
there is just 1 coax cable linking from emu >to> dat input here+ phono's atmo.

do not know what to suggest further than keep checking+testing all your options while trying to keep sanity and not test patience!
you will get there m8 as persistance is a kind of practice initself.

[Stella645]

Reaper doesn't need to be synced..only the hardware....so just set sample rate in project settings.

Doesn't the panel of the DAT tell you the tape sample rate??

So ideally you would confirm the sr of the tape and that meters are moving on the Sony, check Focusrite is set to the same SR and with spdif as clock source and set Reaper project sample rate to the same.

[ptourin]

It turns out that this is more than 1 issue I believe part of it is getting the sample rate set correctly (no, the DAT player doesn't display anything except track no, counter and VU meters - it's a small Sony portable). But there's also something about the DAT, the 6i6 and the MacBook/Reaper talking to each other. Here's what I mean:

Last night I transferred one tape and set up the next. I was ready to transfer and realized that it was almost midnight and I didn't want to stay up. So I powered down the DAT and the 6i6 and closed the lid of the MacBook. This morning I opened the Mac, powered up the 6i6 and the DAT - and when I started the transfer I had no meter activity in Reaper.

@#$@#$%%&^^!!!!!!

So something about the sequence of operations made it unhappy. I entirely closed it down, restarted it, and there were my VU's jumping around. I don't know yet what's required for sequence, but there's obviously something...

[SonicAxiom]

a few thoughts and experiences I made with DAT machines connected to other digital gear:

DAT machines are not the most convenient/practical wordclock source for a digital system. Besides very few DAT machines that are equipped with dedicated wordclock connectors (notably a wordclock INPUT that allows to sync them to external wordclock), they always have to be the master clock for the entire system. Problem is that some DAT machines do not output a steady clock signal via SPDIF. Some only output a digital signal as soon as playback starts. This is very bad because the entire set of wordclock slave devices needs some time to sync to this signal. Sometimes, there's not enough time to get in sync quickly enough before the audio output starts. This phenomenon can sometimes render it impossible to transfer audio from a DAT machine to another medium without cutting a few seconds of the audio at the beginning.

It's been recommended to record silence onto a brand new DAT cassette (for the entire tape length) because this way a contigous timecode was recorded as subcode data. Without this striped timecode on the cassette it may happen that a following recording doesn't continue the timecode at the end of a previous recording causing timecode-less gaps on the DAT tape. These locations also make the DAT machine mute its SPDIF output causing the wordclock for the slave machines to disappear and making them flip out.

To facilitate the DAT dubbing process, you might simply make an analog copy of the material connecting the DAT's analog outs to your interface. A recent interface will not deteriorate the signal too much. If you insist on making a digital copy you need a digital interface with SPDIF input that provides sample rate conversion (asynchronous SPDIF input). However, even if I connect my DAT to my Yamaha DM1000 digital mixing console which has sample rate conversion on its SPDIF input (avoiding the need to make the DAT the wordclock master) the Yamaha console creates glitches (clocks/pops) when the DAT machine runs over a sample rate change on the tape. Personally, I always took care to record extra-long pre- and post-rolls on every DAT recording I made to have enough time for any slaves to sync themselves later.

With regard to the power-on-sequence: Yes, the master device has to be turned on first and the audio software should be launched last.

.

[ptourin]

Thanks - this is interesting, and some of it explains a bit of what I'm seeing. First, these are self-recorded concert tapes - I'd do a pre-concert sound check, then just start the recorder before the concert - so I usually have plenty of blank time before the music starts. Most of the tapes are at 48 but some are at 44.1 - and I can tell. If I watch the Scarlett 6i6 app (the Focusrite control) set on Device Settings), either the sync will go green or it won't, if I have the wrong rate selected. But I have one tape that syncs at 48 when I first put it in, but when I move to the beginning of the music the sync light goes off and I have to switch to 44.1 - that struck me as very odd.

As for recording analog, that wouldn't be hard - there's a line out that I can use. And I do have a few tapes that I can't seem to transfer via SPDIF - so I may end up doing that. It'll certainly be better than not being able to transfer them.