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View Poll Results: Does Reaper need more MIDI love?
Yes, and I use MIDI a lot 111 76.55%
No, and I use MIDI a lot 13 8.97%
Yes, and I don't use MIDI much or at all 11 7.59%
No, and I don't use MIDI much or at all 10 6.90%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-28-2010, 07:25 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by gwok View Post
holy jeez! speakin of major issues,
PMS anyone?
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:28 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
you call it innovation, i call it incompetence and annoyance.

it isn't not wanting to adapt - shit is missing!!!!!!!! how do i adapt to that? oh well, i can't do that, too bad for me?

i know what i want to do, and i will adapt IF reaper can do it as well or better. if reaper does it worse and makes me struggle, then it sucks. and making me click to see stuff that should be visible anyway just plain sucks.

and stop with the condescending talk denigrating these midi problems to "minor" issues, you dick, they are MAJOR issues.
i guess you'll enlighten us on post 5
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:34 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Sonar has the most cluttered, space eating track header I've ever seen.
grrr. liar. sonar has 100% configurability of its track header. you can customize a view to show anything from nothing to everything and anywhere inbetween. and each custom view creates an easily accessible tab to easily select it.

the only thing you've proven with your statement is that you don't use sonar and are basing your bias from screencaps someone posted. lol.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:36 PM   #124
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Pretty nice day here on Shutter Island eh? Now for some cigars and wine...

DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:41 PM   #125
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Hi there forum. Without wanting to ignite any problems, the difficulty is that, as far as I can tell, many users here are 'pilgrims' from other applications that have been around for years and have become accustomed with workflows that have been developed and 'ingrained' over that time.

I'm coming from the perspective of using Cubase since the early 1990s, before audio was integrated into the program. Like early Cakewalk, these programs pioneered and developed MIDI tools and interfaces. Personally, I would love Reaper to have the same MIDI set features as Cubase, but I recognise too that this appears not to be the key focus of development at the moment. MIDI nowadays is seen by many as plugging in the USB 49-key controller and playing in a simple line rather than working with control changes and SysEx events.

Reaper does audio very well - it is fast, smooth and, as far as I have seen, incredibly intuitive. I accept, too, that Reaper plug-ins can be used to fill-in the gaps, but if there was the possibility to more smoothly integrate these plug-ins to be the norm (such as might occur with dedicated MIDI tracks), I believe that this would further improve it's reputation as a DAW solution.

To the credit of the developers, this type of discussion happens because they invite feature requests and implement them in future versions. What would be beneficial in this discussion, however, is the extent that the developers wish to extend the MIDI capability and feature set.

Could the developers perhaps give some type of road map in the MIDI development for the foreseeable future?

Thanks.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:52 PM   #126
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Cockos's plan is to improve MIDI, as well as improving all other aspects of the application.

In the meantime, it would be nice if there were less name-calling. If there is more name-calling, a moderator will close the thread, and then somebody will complain that they have been censored for not liking Reaper.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:59 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Cockos's plan is to improve MIDI, as well as improving all other aspects of the application.

In the meantime, it would be nice if there were less name-calling. If there is more name-calling, a moderator will close the thread, and then somebody will complain that they have been censored for not liking Reaper.
That's a nice comment Schwa but I wouldn't exactly call it a roadmap.

Can you kindly give any specifics about what midi features you plan on implementing and some sort of timetable?

Eg "we plan to do X first and Y second and Z third and expect to get to Y by DDD"

Also, if you could elucidate things that are very low priority; eg, "XYZ is not something we are interested in..." etc.

I think we all know that development takes time, but it would be helpful for all involved to have some idea of what's going on versus feeling like a Godot type situation.


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Old 06-28-2010, 09:23 PM   #128
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Can you kindly give any specifics about what midi features you plan on implementing and some sort of timetable?
I'm sorry, no, we can't give you a specific timetable for what features we plan on implementing. There is very little that is off the table, though, and if there were some feature that people want but we knew would never be implemented, we would say so.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:35 PM   #129
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Can you say what is definitely off the table then if few things are off the table? Eg, is VST3 off the table? Is Notation off the table?

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Old 06-28-2010, 09:42 PM   #130
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Notation is not off the table, lots of people want notation features. VST3 is not a priority for now, but that can change if something happens in the future to make it more appealing.

I now respectfully exit the thread...
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:57 PM   #131
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Can you say what is definitely off the table then if few things are off the table? Eg, is VST3 off the table? Is Notation off the table?
my guess, as a non-reaper dev but as someone who has looked at

a) the VST3 spec, and
b) the almost total indifference to it by the plugin developer community

...is that i wouldn't get too much hope on VST3 support from showing up any time soon.

notation is clearly a big deal for a lot of people but my guess is (to really do it right) it would represent 3-6 months worth of development for 1-2 people who know a lot about notation. which would be why it hasn't been implemented in reaper yet. they could probably get five other elevated FR's done in the same time.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:05 PM   #132
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my guess, as a non-reaper dev but as someone who has looked at

a) the VST3 spec, and
b) the almost total indifference to it by the plugin developer community

...is that i wouldn't get too much hope on VST3 support from showing up any time soon.

notation is clearly a big deal for a lot of people but my guess is (to really do it right) it would represent 3-6 months worth of development for 1-2 people who know a lot about notation. which would be why it hasn't been implemented in reaper yet. they could probably get five other elevated FR's done in the same time.
Well as far as VST3, I'm well familiar with it's shortcomings.

I just happen to own a Yamaha MOTIF XS which (unfortunately and it makes me quite upset) they foisted the plugin, which makes it appear to be a VSTi, as a VST3.

That isn't reaper's fault and I'm not happy with how Yamaha/Steinborg are doing that to (try) to force Motif users to use Cubase.

However for me, it would, obviously be convenient if SOMETHING besides Cubase support VST3.

But for most of the world, VST3 is not really a priority.

As far as dev time etc, well maybe hire some more devs. I think that Notation is pretty important, visualizing midi in "piano roll" mode is not really all that pleasant.

At some point it seems like they will have to do it, when is anyones guess.

DF

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Old 06-28-2010, 10:12 PM   #133
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As far as dev time etc, well maybe hire some more devs.
But I think you can understand the relation between this statement and the current price-point of Reaper
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:13 PM   #134
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more midi love? YES!
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:22 PM   #135
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But I think you can understand the relation between this statement and the current price-point of Reaper
It's an investment. More features = more revenue.

As far as the reaper business model goes -- price point is one issue, but I think an equally important issue is once someone has paid for reaper, that's all the money they are going to get from that person.

No upgrade fees.

So, the only way to get more money is new customers. Which is why I think it does make business sense to spend money on things that reaper doesnt do already, to try to get more users to spend money.

Cockos only gets money from new users, pretty much, so they will constantly have to attract new ones.

Pleasing people who have already paid might be nice karmically but I don't know how much it directly adds to the bottom line.

Maybe if there was a Hanna Montana edition with a Pink Theme and karaoke mode hrrm

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Old 06-28-2010, 10:23 PM   #136
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As far as dev time etc, well maybe hire some more devs. I think that Notation is pretty important, visualizing midi in "piano roll" mode is not really all that pleasant.
i think a better way to do it would be to expand the Reaper/MIDI plugin API so that a third-party notation tool could be integrated properly.

that would mean that someone could build their own commercial plugin for reaper and sell it (or do a by-donation thing) for the people who really need it, or someone might be able to adapt and improve one of the third-party open source notation tools to work properly.

i don't see it happening in the next 12 months otherwise.

i'm trying to plan up a nice solid feature request that would allow that to happen. too busy at work at the moment to do it justice though :-(
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:24 PM   #137
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Pleasing people who have already paid might be nice karmically but I don't know how much it directly adds to the bottom line.
don't underestimate the power of positive word-of-mouth.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:27 PM   #138
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don't underestimate the power of positive word-of-mouth.
I don't. That's why I said "directly". Word of mouth would be "indirectly".

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Old 06-28-2010, 11:30 PM   #139
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I would be pissed too if I spent $3000 on a system that didn't live up to
my expectations but to rile up the masses over $60 software with a dev staff so small the whole world knows them on a first name basis is just bitch hunting.

I voted No, midi is fine for me. Granted I use mid like audio, I record it and then alter it to my liking. Simple. But then I am also aware of some users I would guess are 98% more advanced in their midi usage than I who grok the implementation of reaper as if it was written for them and are very keen on sniping midi bugs. But to disparage the users who add functionality as hacks, I don't get that. For the devs to make the system open enough that others, probably driven by personal workflow, can add functions that probably surprise Justin is better in my eyes than any closed system.

As for the MIDI vs Audio track thing, treating them both the same as interchangeable is bold and logical. For basis I paraphrase the Hegelian Dialectic: For everything, there is an opposite and merging the two brings a higher state. Granted this creates an opposite as well so complete resolution is impossible. This is fine by me. Keep the updates coming.

Do things veer off in odd directions? Yes, some don't affect me yet some open my palette as I can now score my own video. I started programming with Peek and Poke and int 21h and I see the devs bending over backwards to incorporate features users want, especially when presented in specific scenarios. If something takes 5 clicks instead of 2 usually means I only have to do it once and then save a template, so get on board!

I have seen plenty of pissed people swear off Reaper for a variety of reasons only to see those very people turn into fanbois with version 2 and 3. So what's the rush? You can't for version 8?

My only fear is this software will eventually be bought out to be the core library for Skynet.

Seriously, is midi that lacking? I can think of 2 women in this community who are more MIDI than almost all of us and make money at it. Do they have suggestions? of course but from what I can tell from their experience with midi hardware compatibility is a Godsend. Is it perfect? no, are you?

Some of these people are coming across to me as if they regret spending $60
as if it was supposed to be a shortcut to coding it themselves. The irony is those could are 'hacking' extensions that a sane user would praise?

Viva Le Cockos!
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:33 PM   #140
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I would be pissed too if I spent $3000 on a system that didn't live up to
my expectations but to rile up the masses over $60 software with a dev staff so small the whole world knows them on a first name basis is just bitch hunting.
I didn't rile them. I made suggestions. Read the posts I made.

Many commented about how "concise" I was.

The fact that some people got riled isn't my fault -- take it up with them.

I think the first name basis thing is a dual edged sword -- it seems to create a cult of people who think that Reaper is perfect and everyone who doesn't agree is a heretic. Whereas a more anonymous staff would take a lot of the emotional element out of it.

But there are of course two sides to everything and here we are seeing the more "personal" side for good and bad.

I said "Does reaper need more midi love". I never said Reaper sucks.

I think the Midi could be improved and should be improved. Sounds like it will be.

I wouldn't say the Motif "doesn't live up to expectations" .... that would be a bit of a stretch, but I am unhappy about the VSTi plugin aspect being tied to VST3 for it.

Actually, the reason I got the Motif was so I DON'T have to use a daw at all, for pure midi stuff.

So, obviouly using it with a daw wasn't it's intended purpose. But I have been slowly getting back to daw stuff.

I think that the forum and feedback is good but I think that bashing people who have differing opinions is bad. It's counter to what the whole purpose of the forum and FR is.

So hopefully we can get back to making suggestions without people getting upset.


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Old 06-28-2010, 11:53 PM   #141
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Agreed, on all counts except for the dual edged sword part. Anonymous means anyone is at fault, putting your name on something means you take pride in your work. I have read what you propose and if I may distill it down to the core frustration, it seems to be some things are convoluted. I agree but to really expect to have ALL things at your fingertips intuitively without needing to wade into the manual is, with really any modern software, expecting alot especially with such a quickly moving target (documentation) and there are a few HEAVY midi users who do acknowledge things could improve but they don't state anything that can't be done outright. Granted 'hacks' are created but they are written by people who feel as you do and try to address shortcomings now and do but yes, they can be cryptic. To even have that ability staggers me.It is true you need alot more MIDI hardware functions higher up in in GUI than I but you really don't think it will be addressed eventually?

Edit: It is good people get upset, it means they care about it just like you

Of course 99 - 11 says something too
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:24 AM   #142
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:45 AM   #143
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I don't think it's good that people get upset honestly.

It has nothing to do with not wanting to wade through the manual; as a keyboard player I have plenty of manuals to wade through.

It has to do with the fact that there isn't a single manual that covers everything you really need to be productive, as well as convoluted or missing features.

And I think it's unfair to always label people who want a different workflow as too lazy to read the manual.

I've read it, trust me.

But that is another issue I think; almost every daw has a 1000 page manual.

Wouldn't it be nice to have one that is intuitive enough to use without one? That'd be something worth paying a lot of money for.

It might not be reaper, but I think competing on ease of use and productivity is a great way to compete.

And I don't mean making it easy to use by gutting it like garage band. I mean full featured and easy to use.

99-11 says something but so does 11-10.

Half of the people who don't even use midi much think midi needs more love, whereas 90% of people who do use midi think it needs more love.

Regardless of what I think, 83% overall think Midi needs more love.

So I see it as somewhat pointless for people to get upset and complain about people asking for improved midi, when 83% want improved midi.

The conversation should be Improve What, How? Not about pillorying people for having the audacity to suggest new features, which implies, sadly, that reaper isn't perfect.

I doubt the non anonymous authors think it's perfect either. If they did, LoL would shut down pretty quickly.

As to, "don't I think the features I'm looking for will be addressed soon" (paraphrase).

I would like it if they were, but I personally don't think they will be. Not based on what I've seen to date.

I would have thought back in the reaper 2.x days that, for instance we'd have notation by now and we don't.

I thought initially ReaControlMidi would be a short lived bridge phenomenon until "real" midi support in reaper.

But ReaControlMidi has become the defacto solution.

So I would not be in a position to assume that anything in particular will happen soon.

I'd be thrilled if it did of course along with the rest of the 83%.

Speaking of 83%, I got an email from Kim Jong Il. He's Jealous that his numbers weren't even that high in the last election.


DF

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Old 06-29-2010, 01:38 AM   #144
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midi specific track: do not want. will not happen.

additional and refined midi functionality: do want. is happening.
This.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:41 AM   #145
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This.
that.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:50 AM   #146
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that.
... ping?
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Old 06-29-2010, 03:14 AM   #147
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I think you are blatantly misinterpreting people who answer here.
Many of those who you are accusing of "pillorying people for having the audacity to suggest new features, which implies, sadly, that reaper isn't perfect" are just setting facts straight, trying to put the discussion on reasonable feet. The first two pages (!) are mainly about the misinformation made in post#3.

Why on earth did it take about 60 posts until it was granted that Reaper can show and edit patch change, MIDI transpose right on the track header and mixer strips, unified track or not?

As said, I am one of those that voted yes in your poll, but I insist on improvements done where they are needed not just to make Reaper be like any other DAW.
If you concentrated on stuff that is indeed missing (diatonic tranpose, less item-centric editing, the inline editor, event selection improvements, there is so much stuff worth talking about) this discussion could have been fruitful.



About me, Sonar and lies: osranakurva, you can assume what you want about me, I stand to what I posted. Of course one can hide track widgets in Sonar. But then they aren't visible anymore, obviously, defeating their purpose. You are going circles there.
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:58 AM   #148
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About me, Sonar and lies: osranakurva, you can assume what you want about me, I stand to what I posted. Of course one can hide track widgets in Sonar. But then they aren't visible anymore, obviously, defeating their purpose. You are going circles there.
- yes widgets are still visible, on another widget tab
- you obviously have ZERO experience with sonar
- you are sofa king we todd did. LOL

http://rghost.net/2013492

check out that screen shot. TOTAL customization, ALL options, ALL views & create as many as you like. i only need one, the other views are predefined.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:00 AM   #149
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Don't listen to a member whose nick is "osranakurwa" :P

If you add "p" to the beginning, then that means something really nasty in Croatian!
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:17 AM   #150
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- yes widgets are still visible, on another widget tab
- you obviously have ZERO experience with sonar
- you are sofa king we todd did. LOL

http://rghost.net/2013492

check out that screen shot. TOTAL customization, ALL options, ALL views & create as many as you like. i only need one, the other views are predefined.

tsk... As I said assume what you like, call me names, whatever, it won't change a thing about it.

Visible on another tab = invisible until you click that tab = wastes space and is incredibly cluttered when visible.

As of total customization, show me how you customize a simple CC2 control on that header, not even talking about NRPN or SysEx fader. Then we can talk about total customization pal.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:21 AM   #151
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you are sofa king we todd did.
eh? ah.

Final warning on the name calling.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:28 AM   #152
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Hey, the guys nickname is "osranakurwa". In Croatian that's close to "shitted whore" or to be more correct "a whore who's been shat on". Who can take a guy like that serious :P
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:49 AM   #153
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sieg heil!
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you dick
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liar
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you are sofa king we todd did
This person now has a temporary ban.
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:51 AM   #154
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OMG I am witnessing first bannination of a user since I'm on this forum. Woah!

I can't fucking believe it. Excuse my language, but it's the way I feel (and I think nobody is really insulted with my statement)!
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:58 AM   #155
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...and I didnt even know that there is a word like "bannination"
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Old 06-29-2010, 07:59 AM   #156
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...and I didnt even know that there is a word like "bannination"
It probably means something vulgar in Croatian
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:00 AM   #157
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...and I didnt even know that there is a word like "bannination"
That word is a leftover from me being a long-time poster on Harmony Central: Keys, Keyboards & Samplers (HC:KSS for short). It was used there a lot
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:07 AM   #158
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Wow this turned into a heated debate.

As a new user I've been setting up tracks for all my MIDI hardware and VSTi over the last couple of days, and playing around with it a bit. I would say that most of the MIDI seem to work fine in Reaper, a bit basic in some parts but that's not top priority. What I think need more love and attention is ironing out the bugs/glitches/annoyances. I've encountered a few... nothing major, but annoying. That's why I voted yes.

Hopefully I can live with these until fixed, cause Reaper seem to fit my needs and my wallet.
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:11 AM   #159
Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
...it would be nice if there were less name-calling. If there is more name-calling, a moderator will close the thread, and then somebody will complain that they have been censored for not liking Reaper.
#$$@#$@! Sock-Puppet! Oh sorry. Just kidding schwa. I think your moderation is ...well... pleasantly moderate.

I have no idea why people get so upset about this stuff. The mere voicing of subjective opinions (key word "subjective") makes people angry. No idea why. I often wonder if people get similarly angry during face to face conversations about stuff that is, relatively speaking, not very important in the big scheme.
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:13 AM   #160
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Moral of the story...

When you are warned to stop the name calling, don't try to sneak another one in.
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