v6.77+dev0307 - March 7 2023

[UknownSource]

Originally Posted by Zeno

I was thinking more of a dedicated plugin that serves as a hub for parameter modulation for all plugins within the FX chain. Where you can assign parameter alias names, and when you select a parameter from a list, this parameter is automatically assigned to the corresponding macro knob, etc.. A simple double-click on the parameter in the list would then open the parameter modulation window, where you can set the range, etc.

This would be really powerful because you could use it inside a container as well as outside a container.
It would make working with parameter modulation/midi link a breeze!

Something like this:

macro map/interface should be a tool that can be added within and outside the container. and it should have lfos and mani other modulators and controls.

but before this, I first need to be able to connect plugins in parallel without too much technical thoughts of how to connect things.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by Zeno

Something like this:

Even though it definitely looks nice, in which way we could map a parameter to a macro? With your suggestion it seems like we could assign only one parameter to a macro?

I liked also this idea from another user and then I added a way to show the modulators for parameter modulation. I really hope PM will get an update as well with fx containers, to visualize all in a single window per plugin like so:



What I like here is that everything is shown in the same window for fast assignments/mapping, and maybe with this way we could also get a much better alternative way to map parameters similar to ableton for example, because it does it very easy and fast.
This happens with a map function, which when it's on it shows every knob or parameter that we could map to a macro/modulator by touching them.

If the fx parameters and macros/PM are not in the same window, we would still have to dive in dropdown menus etc etc for every fx parameter.

[UknownSource]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Even though it definitely looks nice, in which way we could map a parameter to a macro? With your suggestion it seems like we could assign only one parameter to a macro?

I liked also this idea from another user and then I added a way to show the modulators for parameter modulation. I really hope PM will get an update as well with fx containers, to visualize all in a single window per plugin like so:



What I like here is that everything is shown in the same window for fast assignments/mapping, and maybe with this way we could also get a much better alternative way to map parameters similar to ableton for example, because it does it very easy and fast.
This happens with a map function, which when it's on it shows every knob or parameter that we could map to a macro/modulator by touching them.

If the fx parameters and macros/PM are not in the same window, we would still have to dive in dropdown menus etc etc for every fx parameter.

+ 1 this looks good!

[Zeno]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Even though it definitely looks nice, in which way we could map a parameter to a macro? With your suggestion it seems like we could assign only one parameter to a macro?

The number in front of the parameters in the parameter list does not indicate the parameter number, but the number of the plugin in the FX chain of the selected container. Perhaps this has led to confusion?

In my concept you could assign as many parameters as you want to a macro.
Just add it to the parameter list under the macro knob. Or control multiple macros with another macro. Just take a closer look at the image:



On this picture Macro 1 controls various Volume sliders of the Channel Mapper downmixer, Macro 2 controls various parameters of ReaEQ, Macro 3 (Size) controls feedback of ReaDelay and Room size of Rea Verbate, Macro 4 (Mix) controls Wet of ReaDelay and Wet of Rea Verbate, Macro 5 (Thresh) controls the Threshold of ReaComp.
Macro 6 controls Macro 1, Macro 3 and Macro 4. Macro 7 is selected and the macro name is ready to be overwritten with an alias name.


- Right-clicking in the parameter list below the macro knob opens a context menu where the plugin parameters of all plugins in the FX chain are displayed and can be assigned to the macro.
- Right-clicking on a parameter name in the parameter list opens a context menu where aliases can be assigned, the parameter can be removed from the list, etc.
- Double-clicking on a parameter name in the parameter list opens the Parameter Modulation/Midi Link window -> Link from MIDI or FX parameters to set the scale and offset for the parameter link.
- Right-clicking on a Macro Knob opens the Parameter Modulation/Midi Link window, where Audio Control Signal (Sidechain) as well as LFO and Link from MIDI or FX parameters are available.
- Double-clicking on the name of a macro allows the assignment of an alias name for the Macro parameter.

You could insert the "Macro Mapper" plugin wherever you want. As the first plugin in the FX chain, as the last or somewhere in the middle. You could insert several such macro mappers in the FX chain. In the first hierarchical order of the FX chain, inside a container, inside a container within a container, etc.

And you could also see all assigned parameters at a glance, as long as they were assigned with per mapper. It also serves as an overview, where which parameter modulation takes place in the FX chain.

[Vagelis]

Originally Posted by Zeno

- Right-clicking in the parameter list below the macro knob opens a context menu where the plugin parameters of all plugins in the FX chain are displayed and can be assigned to the macro.

Ah ok that's what you meant, so we could select multiple parameters from this list thanks for clarifying

[Zeno]

Originally Posted by Vagelis

Ah ok that's what you meant, so we could select multiple parameters from this list thanks for clarifying

Exactly. It wouldn't be a completely new system, but would use Reaper's existing systems and make them quickly accessible in a clearly designed but simple plugin. It would be a flexible solution, but one that would not take many months of development time.

[Zeno]

By the way, here is the feature request thread for a macro mapper.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I just did something like this. You need to change a number in the code to change the count of sliders-> ReaPack -> Inter Track Parameter Modulation.

Just to be honest and apology for my laziness...

In JSFX code you can hide/display sliders dynamically. I once used this for doing a scroll box of sliders. This would alow allow for very easily do a JSFX with a flexible cout of Sliders.

And of course you can do sliders graphically, as many JSFXes do.
-Michael

[Zeno]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Just to be honest and apology for my laziness...

In JSFX code you can hide/display sliders dynamically.
And of course you can do sliders graphically, as many JSFXes do.
-Michael

Yes I know. And I have written JSFX that use both.
But that's not the point.

Imagine the following:
You have a plugin with a macro knob.
Below the knob is a list box.
And two buttons: Add, Remove.

Left click in the list box and select any parameter of a plugin in your FX chain that you want to link to the macro. This parameter is now automatically linked to the macro knob. Double click on the parameter name in the list box and it will automatically open "Parameter Modulation/Midi Link -> Link from MIDI or FX parameters" so you can set scale and offset.

It is then no longer necessary to go to the corresponding plugin, move the parameter, click on "Param", click on "Parameter Modulation/Midi Link", then click on "Link from MIDI or FX parameters" and select the dummy slider you want to control the plugin parameter to then be able to adjust scala and offset.

In addition, you can see at a glance which parameters are being controlled by a macro. You can name the macro, you can rename the parameters. Directly from this plugin. You can copy or move a parameter including its scale and offset setting from the list of a macro to another macro. If you need another macro, click on the Add button and it will appear. And this would be only a fraction of the possible applications.

It is not possible to implement this in JSFX. Some have tried something similar as a Reascript-JSFX combination, but there are too many compromises involved to make it work reasonably.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Zeno

Left click in the list box and select any parameter of a plugin in your FX chain

Up till now there is no plugin in the world that knows anything about other plugins "in your FX chain". Of course Cockos could do that, but to me it seems rather weird. Especially as they just invented "Containers" (which in fact are a very special kind of plugins). Those of course do know about all plugins they contain, and hence to me seem like the perfectly straight forward place to feature a kind of GUI that deals with modulating the parameters of the hosted Plugins. (i.e. turning "containers" into "Meta-plugins".)
-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Zeno

It is not possible to implement this in JSFX.
Some have tried something similar as a Reascript-JSFX combination, but there are too many compromises involved to make it work reasonably.

True. Due to the reasons above, there is no appropriate API in the JSFX environment. Cockos just added an API to have a JFSX modify it's own pin-Routing (to enable the "Channel roter / Downmixer"), which is unexpected but a lot less weird and complex than information about neighbor pluigins.
It supposedly could be done by a 3rd party Reaper specific VST3 (I did some successful experiments with that using JUCE). But it will be a lot of work, and IMHO decent Meta-Plugins based on "Container" would by much more intuitively usable (even if slightly restricted vs a pure "plugin" workflow), among other reasons because there already are "standard" "Meta plugins" in the market and many know what they provide and how they can be used.

-Michael

[deeb]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Up till now there is no plugin in the world that knows anything about other plugins "in your FX chain". Of course Cockos could do that, but to me it seems rather weird. Especially as they just invented "Containers" (which in fact are a very special kind of plugins). Those of course do know about all plugins they contain, and hence to me seem like the perfectly straight forward place to feature a kind of GUI that deals with modulating the parameters of the hosted Plugins. (i.e. turning "containers" into "Meta-plugins".)
-Michael

I don’t know why you insist on this. Why the thing you call meta plugins needs to be in the container? It should work with container or without container in same track or working with all parameters from every track. Of course a container can contain modulations that work inside and probably saved so it be recalled later, but it’s not a feature that makes sense only in a container.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by deeb

It should work with container or without container in same track or working with all parameters from every track.

This seem extremely complex and hard to keep manageable. Think about adding, deleting, moving or exchanging a plugin "somewhere". How should the thing keep track on that ? The proximity of a container seems a lot more appropriate and create expectable results and detectable problems when the user changes something "within".

Moreover as "Meta-Plugins" are available in the market, most interested users will easily will immediately know what to expect and to do to reach a certain likely goal. This is much more "standard" than a plugin that "miraculously" has information about other plugins active in the project.

Hence I do think the suggestion (such as the "FX-Device" script) is a nice idea, but hard to be implemented is a decent way.

-Michael

[deeb]

Originally Posted by mschnell

This seem extremely complex and hard to keep manageable. Think about adding, deleting, moving or exchanging a plugin "somewhere". How should the thing keep track on that ? The proximity of a container seems a lot more appropriate and create expectable results and detectable problems when the user changes something "within".

-Michael

We don’t know how much work it is. It’s a lot of work neither way I guess, the biggest work is on the interface and initial conceptualization. After that all tracks or single track maybe is not so much work then focus only on the container. Only they know. But I like concept of having a sandbox, container witch works independently and can be recalled later easily: like building a sound generator or sound processing unit made from several plugins. I definitely would love to have.

But you see (hypothetically): you could select different tracks and their fxchains be saved has fxcontainers And then later able to load them all in a single track separated Iin Different fx container . Is quite matrix 2.0 and endless the concept now

[Zeno]

Originally Posted by mschnell

This seem extremely complex and hard to keep manageable. Think about adding, deleting, moving or exchanging a plugin "somewhere". How should the thing keep track on that ? The proximity of a container seems a lot more appropriate and create expectable results and detectable problems when the user changes something "within".

Moreover as "Meta-Plugins" are available in the market, most interested users will easily will immediately know what to expect and to do to reach a certain likely goal. This is much more "standard" than a plugin that "miraculously" has information about other plugins active in the project.

-Michael

I don't know where your assumption comes from that such a plugin needs to communicate with other plugins and know their position and status.
Even now, any plugin in an FX chain can receive control signals from any other plugin. If one of the plug-ins is deleted, this connection breaks. If the plugin is moved within the FX chain, this connection remains intact because the position does not affect the connection.
The plug-ins do not need to communicate with each other, but the connection is managed within the take/track FX chain via "Parameter Modulation/Midi Link. And Parameter Modulation/Midi Link knows all the plug-ins in the FX chain, their positions and their parameters. So there is already communication between plug-ins and Parameter Modulation/Midi Link in both directions.

The existence of a plugin that allows communication with Parameter Modulation/Midi Link in both directions and gathers the information in one place would mean that it can be used in an FX container to build meta plugins, for example, yes. The FX container would allow all these links to be saved as a container preset.

But also outside of an FX container such a plugin makes sense. Here, too, the connections can be saved as an FX chain. But it can also be used simply to manage parameter link and modulation more easily.

But as far as this topic is concerned, could we move the discussion to the FR thread? I'm interested in the pros and cons, but I think the pre-release thread is the wrong place for that.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Zeno

I don't know where your assumption comes from that such a plugin needs to communicate with other plugins

I don't. It needs information about them.