Old 02-05-2020, 10:20 AM   #1
Thonex
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Default Inaccurate Crossfade visual representation

Hi guys,

As someone who edits audio all the time, this is very annoying to me... especially when I routinely use Equal Gain and Equal Power x-fades within the same phrase.

Below are examples of Reaper's and another DAW's (in this case Nuendo) visual representation of crossfades of a since wave at -12dB, 440 Hz. In both cases (Equal Gain and Equal Power) Reaper incorrectly displays the combined volume waveform.

Incorrect Equal Gain crossfade for Reaper (note... it should be a solid line):
Correct Equal Gain display on another DAW:

Incorrect Equal Power crossfade for Reaper for a 440 Hz sine wave (note... it should be an increase in volume... therefore a bump):
Correct Equal Power display on another DAW:
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Old 02-05-2020, 06:08 PM   #2
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Yeah, I would say this doesn't look accurate at all.
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Old 02-05-2020, 06:15 PM   #3
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Yeah, I would say this doesn't look accurate at all.
Yeah... thanks. It's totally not accurate.. so it doesn't inspire confidence when doing a ton of editing where you need Equal Power and Equal Gain depending on the material.
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Old 02-05-2020, 10:40 PM   #4
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This is a much bigger deal than some may suspect. Logic had this problem problem as well and I never realized the real problem until I switched the Cubase and the waveform became accurate for me.
If we are supposed to understand what it sounds like by looking at it then it needs to be accurate
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Old 02-06-2020, 12:37 PM   #5
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This is a much bigger deal than some may suspect. Logic had this problem problem as well and I never realized the real problem until I switched the Cubase and the waveform became accurate for me.
If we are supposed to understand what it sounds like by looking at it then it needs to be accurate
Thanks.

Proper visual representation is somewhat of a must I would think.
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:18 PM   #6
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Note that equal power curves aren't the same either. But that's probably not gonna change visually in Reaper, I wouldn't expect it.
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:46 PM   #7
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Note that equal power curves aren't the same either. But that's probably not gonna change visually in Reaper, I wouldn't expect it.
They are both utterly inaccurate.

Wouldn't it be like one more line of code calcs (Sum of the differences etc)?
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Note that equal power curves aren't the same either. But that's probably not gonna change visually in Reaper, I wouldn't expect it.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't. When what I see on the screen is different than what I hear, I start to doubt everything. And then invariably double and triple-checking things. All because what is visually represented is different than what I am hearing. Think if when you processed an audio file it did something similar. People would be pretty pissed off.

If a render or mixdown of the crossfade doesn't look like that, then the crossfade shouldn't look like that either and is a bug IMHO.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:04 PM   #9
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No I'm saying that Reaper's xfade curve there is completely different than Cubendo's. Not sure if that's equal power at all in Reaper - it's exponential, for sure, but in the other direction.

Since these xfades are all matching a certain formula (because you can reshape the curvature), I doubt this is going to be changed without breaking everyone's projects. Which won't happen... It's more likely that a new curve would have to be added.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
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No I'm saying that Reaper's xfade curve there is completely different than Cubendo's. Not sure if that's equal power at all in Reaper - it's exponential, for sure, but in the other direction.

Since these xfades are all matching a certain formula (because you can reshape the curvature), I doubt this is going to be changed without breaking everyone's projects. Which won't happen... It's more likely that a new curve would have to be added.
The point here is that they are simply being drawn incorrect visually. We aren't talking about the audio itself. So what would break in that scenario? Everyone's crossfades would now look correct? That isn't going to mess up or break anyone's old sessions in any way. As opposed to all the people now who are getting messed up trying to visually match both sides of an equal gain crossfade with the current behavior.

There are times to worry about new behavior breaking old sessions. This is not one of those. A new type of curve isn't needed. It simply needs to display the ones that are there already correctly.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
No I'm saying that Reaper's xfade curve there is completely different than Cubendo's. Not sure if that's equal power at all in Reaper - it's exponential, for sure, but in the other direction.
I did both Equal Power and Equal Gain in Reaper and in Nuendo. In Reaper the visual was never accurate. It should have been at unity or a bump.... never a dip. Nuendo's display is correct.

I have faith in Cockos's programmers that this wouldn't be a huge calculation.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:33 PM   #12
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This is simply the result of REAPER drawing each media item separately, rather than combining output for overlapping media. It's not a mathematically complex thing to change, but probably fairly painful programming wise. I'll take a look though.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
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This is simply the result of REAPER drawing each media item separately, rather than combining output for overlapping media. It's not a mathematically complex thing to change, but probably fairly painful programming wise. I'll take a look though.
Thanks for taking a look Schwa!!

Massive appreciation and respect!
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This is simply the result of REAPER drawing each media item separately, rather than combining output for overlapping media. It's not a mathematically complex thing to change, but probably fairly painful programming wise. I'll take a look though.
Schwa. The hero we need!

Thanks so much for taking a look. And regardless of what happens, comments like these are massively helpful to understand what is going on currently and very much appreciated.
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Old 02-06-2020, 04:44 PM   #15
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You see the same thing when faint peaks are displayed in envelope lanes, overlapping media is drawn one media item at a time rather than combined.
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Old 02-06-2020, 04:54 PM   #16
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Can those be combined too, then?
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Can those be combined too, then?
Well, if scripts can do it....
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post


nofish... are you indirectly telling schwa there is no excuse?
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:15 AM   #19
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Quote:
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nofish... are you indirectly telling schwa there is no excuse?
Uhm, it was kind of a cheeky comment, yeah, sorry.

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Old 02-07-2020, 11:52 AM   #20
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Cheeky but warranted
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
are you indirectly telling schwa there is no excuse?
Staying clear of this one lol. Negative Ghost Rider the pattern is full...

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Old 02-07-2020, 12:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Uhm, it was kind of a cheeky comment, yeah, sorry.
It was a kind hearted cheeky comment... I'm sure no offense was taken.

I'm also sure schwa wants what's best and if it's not too much of a house of cards coding-wise... I bet he'll address it. (Hopefully )
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