Old 08-10-2009, 11:32 PM   #1
brother john
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Default Midi routing question - instruments/Kontakt

Hi All,

Is there anywhere in the manual that explains about routing different midi channels? On p78 it only says 'in this example sellect All channels', and I can't find anything that tells me want I need to know.

Basically, I have put an instance of Kontakt on one track, and I want to load several instruments within it and have them triggered by different tracks, each with a separate midi channel assigned, e.g. piano midi channel one, harpsichord ch 2, percussion ch 3 etc.

The thing is I'm unsure how to set this up. What I'm doing is having Kontakt on track 1, with a midi track triggering piano on midi channel 1; a harpsichord on a second track underneath, with a send to Kontakt and its midi channel set to Midi input > Delta AP Midi (my soundcard)> Channel 2, and so on. In Kontakt I have the piano set to midi ch 1 and the harpsichord set to midi ch 2.

However, this just doesn't work. I know I must be doing something wrong here, but I find that I can only get the instruments to work if I set midi channels to Omni.

Should I make midi channel settings in Delta AP Midi or in All Midi inputs? What is the Map input to channel option for?

What I want to end up with is a number of different midi tracks, each triggering a different instrument within Kontakt and not playing them all at once, which also seems to happen...

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks alot,

BJ
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:19 AM   #2
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Hello!

The long answer to your question is here: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...91&postcount=4

But here's a shortcut, in form of a template that should suit your needs: http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.p...9&d=1245842792


The template is for Kontakt2, but I think it should work in 3 too.

Just don't forget to enable feedback routing in project settings (Alt-Enter) - and while you're at it, enable the option there to mute the master once it reaches dangerous db levels.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:56 AM   #3
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This might help:

Configuring Multi-Output VSTis: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=27868
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:17 AM   #4
brother john
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Thanks alot Noiseman. What incredible magic that template is! I tried it in an empty project and it works like a dream. However, when I inserted the track from template into a project that already has midi tracks in it it doesn't work. How do I make it function? I have 4Front Piano, Sfz, Addictive Drums and a version of Kontakt 2 already in the project. Not sure I could get rid of all these and import the track from template again as something would be bound to go wrong, and I have an uber-complicated set of tempo markers that would take a lifetime to set again...

What do you suggest?

And thanks again DarkStar for you link to configuring VSTis - very informative. Another one bookmarked.


EDIT: I'm getting midi in, as this shows in the TCP and in Kontakt, but no sound out!

Cheers,

BJ

Last edited by brother john; 08-11-2009 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:42 AM   #5
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I did not read much but I am assuming that new projects are created with the Allow Feedback Routing Flag enabled...

and your older projects do not have that enabled.

thus a beautiful Track Template that makes use of feedback routing won't work in your existing projects.

Please note:
The Feedback Routing Track Templates for VSTis were originally created as a stop-gap. A way to lessen the track count since we were not able to nest folders, nor hide tracks from the TCP. Now we can nest folder and thanks to SWS' amazing extension we can hide tracks 'till the cows come home. So the only real advantage of AFBR Track templates for VSTis is gone... the real disadvantage remains however... PDC will break. If you want to treat the audio of one of those VSTi outputs... better make sure you are using a plugin that introduces no delay.

greetings
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
Please note:
The Feedback Routing Track Templates for VSTis were originally created as a stop-gap. A way to lessen the track count since we were not able to nest folders, nor hide tracks from the TCP. Now we can nest folder and thanks to SWS' amazing extension we can hide tracks 'till the cows come home. So the only real advantage of AFBR Track templates for VSTis is gone... the real disadvantage remains however... PDC will break. If you want to treat the audio of one of those VSTi outputs... better make sure you are using a plugin that introduces no delay.

greetings
.t
Just to be sure.
Does that mean the best would be to use multiple instances of a vsti and put them in folder tracks?

greetings,
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Old 08-11-2009, 08:25 AM   #7
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Thanks for your comments Tallisman. I had indeed forgotten to enable feedback routing.

I'm afraid, although I'm using it, I don't really understand what feedback routing is, though I'm glad of its existence because its enabled me to make use of the fab template and use Kontakt properly. I also don't know what PDC is, and am mildly alarmed at the thought of it breaking. (??)

I'm a slow learner, so am very grateful for all the help I've received on the forum so far, even if some of it is a bit beyond me.

BJ

P.S. johan-v - I think, if I understand you, the use of plugs like Kontakt means that you don't have to use multiple instances of VSTis, thus saving of cpu. So the answer to your question would I think be no!
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Old 08-11-2009, 08:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brother john View Post
Thanks for your comments Tallisman. I had indeed forgotten to enable feedback routing.

I also don't know what PDC is, and am mildly alarmed at the thought of it breaking. (??)

P.S. johan-v - I think, if I understand you, the use of plugs like Kontakt means that you don't have to use multiple instances of VSTis, thus saving of cpu. So the answer to your question would I think be no!
Hello,

PDC is Plugin Delay Compensation.

Johan
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:20 AM   #9
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OK, thanks.
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:34 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan-v View Post
Just to be sure.
Does that mean the best would be to use multiple instances of a vsti and put them in folder tracks?

greetings,
no it means you will have the most flexibility wiht the least amount of potential problems if you avoid using Allow Feedback Routing (AFBR) in your vsti templates.

With AFBR enabled you can create a VSTi Track templates that uses a single track for both midi itmes and audio returns:

Folder track
-VSTi container
- Midi/Audio (holds midi items that drive the VSTi and catches the audio out from the VSTi)
- Midi/Audio (holds midi items that drive the VSTi and catches the audio out from the VSTi)

that will break PDC try this to see: add a drum loop or shomething rhythmic that plays in time to the metronome. Then process that track with ReaFIR and Event Horizon+. Mo listen to it against then metronome... nope your Drummer is not insanely drunk, the plugin delay compensation is.

when not using AFBR every midi track contains only midi and every out from the VSTi gets its own track.

PDC is in tact.

greetings
,t
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Last edited by Tallisman; 08-11-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:00 AM   #11
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So if I understand it it goes like this

Without AFBR (counts 5 tracks for 2 outs in kontakt )
Vsti track ( containing kontakt for instance )
Midi track 1 for VSTi out 1
Audio receive track 1 for VSTi out 1
Midi track 2 for VSTi out 2
Audio receive track 2 for VSTi out 2
etc. for more

With AFBR (counts 3 tracks for 2 outs in kontakt )
Vsti track ( containing kontakt for instance )
Midi track 1 combined with Audio receive track 1 for VSTi out 1
Midi track 2 combined with Audio receive track 2 for VSTi out 2
etc. for more

Is this what you mean?

greetings,
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:06 AM   #12
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Yep, that would do it.

You can hide the audio tracks in the Arrange view and hide the MIDI tracks in the Mixer to save space

or re-order them (all the MIDI then all the audio), put them in folders and collapse the folders.
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:11 AM   #13
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Thank you Tallisman for your comment. I like and use the hide feature provided by SWS' extension a lot, but it doesn't ultimatively render FBR track templates useless. The very fact that this question raises up again and again here (DarkStar can tell ) proves that such a feature is needed and used (probably abused) by quite a lot of people. I suspect most of these folks are converted Cubendo users.

For some people (me included) the FBR approach makes perfect sense when using VSTi that load different instrument patches into slots and where it's nothing but logical to address each slot by its corresponding MIDI and audio channels (like MIDI1 to Slot1 to Audio1, MIDI2 to Slot2 to Audio2, etc) such as Kontakt or SampleTank.

Now there are a number of advantages if we need only one track per instrument, the most important one for me is that I don't have to make my head around which ouput is linked to which MIDI port - I just fill some slots, press record on their according track and play. This and the fact that I have only half the tracks begging for my attention are great workflow enhancements for me.

Agreed, I could get this with seperated tracks and hiding as well. It's a choices thing that nobody will understand if he hasn't got that preference. Think of it like kind of a soft fetish.

I also agree with you that this approach is completely useless for multi-out VSTi where an patch consists of a variety of single instruments - any drum machine springs to mind.

Now for the PDC. I was not aware of a problem that could arise when using this FBR approach. It's very likely I haven't used plugins that introduce delay yet.

Guess I should go and check my projects for possible problems. Damn, now you made me paranoid, thank you very much.
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Yep, that would do it.

You can hide the audio tracks in the Arrange view and hide the MIDI tracks in the Mixer to save space

or re-order them (all the MIDI then all the audio), put them in folders and collapse the folders.
and with the SWS Extension, you can hide anything you like from either or both the TCP and MCP.

My default templates For Kontakt 3:
Item ........................... Visible
Folder containing all .......... TCP & MCP
VSTI container ................. TCP & MCP
Midi Tracks 1-8 ................ TCP only
Midi Tracks 9-16 ............... Hidden from TCP & MCP
Audio Returns 1-8 .............. TCP & MCP
Audio Returns 9-15 ............. Hidden from TCP & MCP
Audio Return 16 (last in folder) TCP only

and I can adjust that show only master folder track (master level) in on keystroke.

greetings
.t
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:22 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoiseMan View Post
Thank you Tallisman for your comment. I like and use the hide feature provided by SWS' extension a lot, but it doesn't ultimatively render FBR track templates useless. The very fact that this question raises up again and again here (DarkStar can tell ) proves that such a feature is needed and used (probably abused) by quite a lot of people. I suspect most of these folks are converted Cubendo users.

For some people (me included) the FBR approach makes perfect sense when using VSTi that load different instrument patches into slots and where it's nothing but logical to address each slot by its corresponding MIDI and audio channels (like MIDI1 to Slot1 to Audio1, MIDI2 to Slot2 to Audio2, etc) such as Kontakt or SampleTank.

Now there are a number of advantages if we need only one track per instrument, the most important one for me is that I don't have to make my head around which ouput is linked to which MIDI port - I just fill some slots, press record on their according track and play. This and the fact that I have only half the tracks begging for my attention are great workflow enhancements for me.

Agreed, I could get this with seperated tracks and hiding as well. It's a choices thing that nobody will understand if he hasn't got that preference. Think of it like kind of a soft fetish.

I also agree with you that this approach is completely useless for multi-out VSTi where an patch consists of a variety of single instruments - any drum machine springs to mind.

Now for the PDC. I was not aware of a problem that could arise when using this FBR approach. It's very likely I haven't used plugins that introduce delay yet.

Guess I should go and check my projects for possible problems. Damn, now you made me paranoid, thank you very much.
My point was simply this:
AFBR routing for me, was a stop-gap solution to try and maintain a handle on the size of projects that used large VSTis. For example in my last post I detailed my K3 Track template. It contains 34 tracks in all. But the are only visible when I need them to be. And, most importantly, PDC is working.

I came from Cubendo and was use to not having the project cluttered by a single vsti.

Now I am back to that.

greetings
.t
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:25 AM   #16
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Go to http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ight=KP2+Multi and download the pdf file mentioned in post #10.
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:58 AM   #17
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Could somebody give an example of a VSTi that causes latency problems with the feedback solution.

Johan
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merdave View Post
Go to http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ight=KP2+Multi and download the pdf file mentioned in post #10.
hi, the link for the surely most interesting pdf seems not to work.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan-v View Post
Could somebody give an example of a VSTi that causes latency problems with the feedback solution.

Johan
Stylus RMX
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would have been easier to say, "PDC breaks with every Multi I/O VSTi template I have (/had) that uses AFBR routing.


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Old 08-11-2009, 01:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan-v View Post
Could somebody give an example of a VSTi that causes latency problems with the feedback solution.
I can reproduce it with my Kontakt template (see link above) and the procedure as explained by Tallisman:

Quote:
add a drum loop or shomething rhythmic that plays in time to the metronome. Then process that track with ReaFIR and Event Horizon+. Mo listen to it against then metronome... nope your Drummer is not insanely drunk, the plugin delay compensation is.
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:39 PM   #21
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The link works for me in Firefox. Brings up a Stash page. Click on the file and it should bring up a download dialog. It is a good pdf for KP 2 and Reaper.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:31 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klemperer View Post
hi, the link for the surely most interesting pdf seems not to work.
I'll second that...
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoiseMan View Post
Hello!

The long answer to your question is here: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...91&postcount=4

But here's a shortcut, in form of a template that should suit your needs: http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.p...9&d=1245842792


The template is for Kontakt2, but I think it should work in 3 too.

Just don't forget to enable feedback routing in project settings (Alt-Enter) - and while you're at it, enable the option there to mute the master once it reaches dangerous db levels.
Great, all set now. But I'd like to know why if I put an insert like reverb or something over one of these tracks it doesn't work? Possibley a stupid question, but there's audio coming out of it (when I solo it) but this isn't effected by further plugs.

TVM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:06 AM   #24
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Klemperer and bro john: send me an email at merdave@homeNetNW.net and I'll email you the pdf as an attachment. It's too big to attach to a post.
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:24 PM   #25
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Default multi channel vsti: better instructions and work around

I'd just like to make a note here that many of the explanations given about how to get multi channel vsti's working in reaper don't go far enough for the new user. This thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=27213 has a link to a video that gives more detail about what is needed to get it running as well as a work around if you just can't get the vsti to work well and want to run the plugin as an external app triggered through midi (specifically for Proteus software).
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:43 PM   #26
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Tallisman wrote:

"With AFBR enabled you can create a VSTi Track templates that uses a single track for both midi itemes and audio returns"


As a Sonar user at the moment I'm very envious of this option in Reaper,
because it would decrease the number of tracks a lot!

Are there any hints from the developers if they working on allowing this
kind of routing without breaking delay compensation?
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:57 PM   #27
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Default oi

Tallisman's avatar tricked me
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:58 AM   #28
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Hi

Could I ask what would I need to do to avoid using "Allow feedback in routing" incorrectly. What is the common error in creating feedback using this option.

Many thanks
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