Mixing critique - "Suicide Note"

[swingset]

I'm an alternative/rock artist doing one-man band stuff...all the stuff from start to finish. I'm getting to where I'm finally feeling pretty proficient in Reaper, but still struggle sometimes with polish and getting the mixes what I call production ready.

I'm very happy with this stylistically and arrangement wise, but I'm losing my objectivity on mix. I've re-mixed it at least 6 times from ground up trying to see if I can compete with myself to make it better...but most all my mixes are coming up just like this one, lol. So, that's either good or bad, so I'm asking for a critical ear to tell me if there's any glaring holes in it. I'll confess up front I don't deep edit for things like vocal pitch or hyper-critical time. I really prefer things to be more musical and slightly flawed here and there, so what I'm really asking about is tonality, movement, overall mix/eq, etc.

https://craiggibson.bandcamp.com/track/suicide-note

[karbomusic]

Mixes are never finished, they are only released.

That said, if I had to be nitpicky, I'd like to hear the rhythm section better (kick/snare/bass), it sort of gets lost in the mix and undefined at times, but that may be intentional - At first it sounded to me like you paid so much attention to everything else, that it sort of fell to the wayside over time but could be wrong. I'm fine with the fact that the vocal is out front in case that comes up, many often neglect the most important part which is being able to hear the emotion in the vocal.

The only other thing is the top end sounded a little whipsy to me (8-10 kHz) but I'll let others chime in.

Great song and overall I think the presentation is great.

[swingset]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Mixes are never finished, they are only released.

That said, if I had to be nitpicky, I'd like to hear the rhythm section better (kick/snare/bass), it sort of gets lost in the mix and undefined at times, but that may be intentional - At first it sounded to me like you paid so much attention to everything else, that it sort of fell to the wayside over time but could be wrong. I'm fine with the fact that the vocal is out front in case that comes up, many often neglect the most important part which is being able to hear the emotion in the vocal.

The only other thing is the top end sounded a little whipsy to me (8-10 kHz) but I'll let others chime in.

Great song and overall I think the presentation is great.

Thanks, appreciate it. I've struggled with bright mixes before so that's something I get wrong a lot. I honestly think I have a little hearing loss and I'm mixing to a brighter preference (mine) than I should...but in a song like this that would be unwanted so I'll try roll that off a bit.

You're correct tho that having the drums lower key was intentional in this. I normally mix them stronger, and rolled them a bit back because I thought with the pitch of my voice in this they were getting in the way.

[fHumble fHingaz]

Hi Craig, what an excellent song! I really love the feel of this.

I think your songwriting, performance, mix sound outstanding! I love the restrained drums and subdued feel of the song overall.

My only suggestion is a production idea: Building a little on Karbomusic's observation, I think you have an opportunity to really take the song to a different place that might tell the story even more profoundly... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense from the lyrics that the songs protagonist is in a deep, dark psychological hole, but the last stanza gives a glimmer of hope: "God knows I'll come around..."...

If I've interpreted that right, following the last chorus(?) just prior to the word "sleep" at 3:09, why not bring the drums in louder for that fill to announce the bass and drums nice and solid and wide from that point on through the outdo/coda instrumental. (Beautiful guitar playing btw)... That sort of arrangement might create a sense of barely-there optimism that I sense (as a listener) the protagonist might be reaching for.... just an idea.

I love it as is - great work!

[swingset]

Originally Posted by fHumble fHingaz

Hi Craig, what an excellent song! I really love the feel of this.

I think your songwriting, performance, mix sound outstanding! I love the restrained drums and subdued feel of the song overall.

My only suggestion is a production idea: Building a little on Karbomusic's observation, I think you have an opportunity to really take the song to a different place that might tell the story even more profoundly... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense from the lyrics that the songs protagonist is in a deep, dark psychological hole, but the last stanza gives a glimmer of hope: "God knows I'll come around..."...

If I've interpreted that right, following the last chorus(?) just prior to the word "sleep" at 3:09, why not bring the drums in louder for that fill to announce the bass and drums nice and solid and wide from that point on through the outdo/coda instrumental. (Beautiful guitar playing btw)... That sort of arrangement might create a sense of barely-there optimism that I sense (as a listener) the protagonist might be reaching for.... just an idea.

I love it as is - great work!

Thanks for the kind words. I toyed with building the end up, had string swells in another mix and brought the last chorus/solo into a bigger crescendo with a more energized drum part and "a little more" but my guitar work in there was relaxed and I wasn't sure it fit the somber tone. But you might be right that it could improve the ending to come up with the more uplifting passage at the end.

The song's pretty much a painful autobiography, btw, lol. That probably doesn't help with losing objectivity. But, I appreciate the insight, it's always helpful to hear how other musicians hear my stuff, which is one big downside of being a completely solo outfit.

[fHumble fHingaz]

Originally Posted by swingset

Thanks for the kind words. I toyed with building the end up, had string swells in another mix and brought the last chorus/solo into a bigger crescendo with a more energized drum part and "a little more" but my guitar work in there was relaxed and I wasn't sure it fit the somber tone. But you might be right that it could improve the ending to come up with the more uplifting passage at the end.

Yeah, I totally get that. It is is great as-is, and an idea like that would mean many hours more work, especially for a one-man-show (as I am, pretty much!). Sometimes your first instinct is best, other times, the path to something exceptional is circuitous and painful!

Originally Posted by swingset

The song's pretty much a painful autobiography, btw, lol. That probably doesn't help with losing objectivity. But, I appreciate the insight, it's always helpful to hear how other musicians hear my stuff, which is one big downside of being a completely solo outfit.

As a songwriter who both writes from personal and imagined perspectives myself, I never like to just assume any song is written from a first-person point of view. I'm really sorry to hear that it was your personal pain.

On the other hand, music is one of the things that keeps us going forward to the next day, and sharing pain in a song can be a healthier way of dealing with it than some of the alternatives. What's more, if a listener identifies with the song and it helps them get through it - all the better.

I agree that maintaining perspective is really difficult as a one-man-show. Doing everything from start to finish in the production process is exhausting, but ultimately rewarding. That is how I made my first album (apart from very occasional collaborators).

In fact, I'll try to post a song of mine which had a similar painful inspiration. I played around with it for around 20 years in various forms before I finally got it to a place where I felt it was not too painful or maudlin to listen to.

Whatever you decide to do - Your song is great as-is!

[toleolu]

I bookmarked your Bandcamp page. All I can say is Damn!!!

You're the kind of guitar player I always wanted to be. So many different styles played so well. I really liked Metric Ave. and Love Ain't Bad. Takes real talent to combine Joe Satriani and Helen Keller.

It says you're in Austin. I lived in Dallas and Houston back in the late 70's, went to Austin a lot. Back when you walked up to the Southwest Airline counter, plopped down 29 bucks, got your plastic boarding pass and off you went.

Must be something in the water down there. So much great music coming out of Austin.

[swingset]

Originally Posted by toleolu

I bookmarked your Bandcamp page. All I can say is Damn!!!

You're the kind of guitar player I always wanted to be. So many different styles played so well. I really liked Metric Ave. and Love Ain't Bad. Takes real talent to combine Joe Satriani and Helen Keller.

It says you're in Austin. I lived in Dallas and Houston back in the late 70's, went to Austin a lot. Back when you walked up to the Southwest Airline counter, plopped down 29 bucks, got your plastic boarding pass and off you went.

Must be something in the water down there. So much great music coming out of Austin.

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it.

Listening to my stuff, you'd think I fancy myself a lead guitarist type of guy with all the solo/instrumentals, but there's a weird reason for it - 99% of what I write was supposed to be vocal songs, and I usually noodle around with a lead guitar to find vocal melodies or to test out the structure of a riff or hook. If I can't find a place for words or a vocal line, I end up making that an instrumental a lot of the time and play the leads like I would sing it. I used to just keep those songs to myself, but occasionally folks who knew me would hear them and ask for a copy and I've put them out as finished products.

You'd laugh if you saw my setup, I'm about as low-rent as a dude can get for what I do. I lost a whole house full of touring/pro gear years ago after some health issues/divorce, so I'm on the single guy budget and I do a lot with a little. The guitars in most of my stuff is recorded DI out of my old GT-6, which was a really great modeler for its day. It doesn't do everything well, but it's got a superb effects section, it's quiet, and the models it does well happen to fit my tastes. I use a Boss Katana Pro too, and that's the extent of my amplification, other than the odd VST work. I play teles and strats that are parts casters, a sub-$200 Ibanez Talman bass, and I have an ancient 1st gen set of V-drums I use to play/trigger samples. My keys are all pretty much freebie plugins. Acoustics aren't anything special, Alvarez dreadnought and an import Breedlove. A $70 lap steel kit, and a yard sale Fender banjo. It's a string & chewing gum operation....the only thing I sprung for was a few good condensers and a nice preamp.

I love Austin, btw, warts and all, but I'm a recent transplant...came here from Ohio a few years ago for work. Dig the music scene, tho. It's definitely rubbed off on my music.

[swingset]

Originally Posted by Abraham Liftin'

Ah, so THIS is thread you were talking about. I'm glad Toleolu posted or I might not have ever seen it.

What an emotional song. I like that dry, in your face vocal for this kind of tune. It's exactly what a tune like this needs.

I understand this is not a drum-oriented song, but I still think they can come up. Right now, they're almost distracting from the vocal because they're so low. As dumb as that sounds, what I mean is, I'm trying so hard to hear them that it's taking my attention away from the vocals, which is where the whole message of this song lies.

Other than that, you captured what you were trying to convey, which is a success for any song. Nice writing, playing and singing.

Thanks, I will bring the drums up a few db and re-post. I think in all my mixes I had them hiding in the back of the mix, but I'll give them a boost and see how that flies for me (and anyone else). I definitely don't want it to be a distraction that they're not "there" enough.

[eq1]

A couple 2-cent impressions:

-I also was wanting or expecting a tad more build-up at the end. Not really build-up, with extra instruments and stuff, but a little more volume, a little louder.

-On vocals, maybe a bit of eq to soften them would help... In my headphones (HD650s) I hear a sort of hollowness, they need a bit more body/meat, I guess. Basically, personally I'd go for a little less clarity on vox, more body, it'd set up a better contrast with the vox FX, I think, too, and also mesh with the drums better.

[toleolu]

Originally Posted by swingset

You'd laugh if you saw my setup, I'm about as low-rent as a dude can get for what I do.

I'm with you there. All my stuff is used, modded MIM strats, a Partscaster I built from scratch and a used PRS Singlecut.

My most expensive guitar is a used Taylor acoustic. I love that thing.

I started playing with some other people a little while back so I haven't had much time lately to do any recording. But to be honest, I'm starting to get a little bored with the band thing and am looking to start recording again. I really dig your music, any chance you might be interested in collaborating on something down the road?

[swingset]

Originally Posted by toleolu

I'm with you there. All my stuff is used, modded MIM strats, a Partscaster I built from scratch and a used PRS Singlecut.

My most expensive guitar is a used Taylor acoustic. I love that thing.

I started playing with some other people a little while back so I haven't had much time lately to do any recording. But to be honest, I'm starting to get a little bored with the band thing and am looking to start recording again. I really dig your music, any chance you might be interested in collaborating on something down the road?

Sure, I do some collab work for my former band mates here and there.

I never know who or what I jive with, it's kind of like dating, but when it works I always enjoy it. Drop me an IM if you have anything you'd like to share.

[BCF1]

Two thumbs up from me 👍👍
Dig it !!
Great job

[swingset]

Re-posted it with 2db more on the drums, and a bigger swell at the end chorus and beyond...it's subtle, but it's definitely more than the first mix.

[eq1]

I like the louder drums and the extra 'swell'. Still seems like vox is a little harsh, sibilant. Maybe whole mix is a little hot in the ~2k-4k range? I listened through on headphones and then switched to monitors this time...

IF it were my mix, I'd probably try to soften the vox without losing the clarity, maybe turn it down by a db or 2. It seems like there's a lot of interesting detail in the background, like vox FX, reverb tails and the like, that I wish were reaching out into the foreground a bit more. I'm thinking the alleged harshness of the vox is probably masking some of that. Of course it's a fine line, as you want to keep the vox front and center, clear, etc...

Anyway, pretty sure this vox harsh/sibilance perception is real. But overall, it's a very nice song and mix, it's not like this kind of tweaking would make or break it. The way it is, for example, probably would be more appropriate for car listening, where vox cuts through the noise, whereas the type of changes I'm suggesting would be more appropriate for quiet listening environments.

[fHumble fHingaz]

Just listening again... I think I like the louder drums a little better.

The outro guitar is so cool - it puts me in mind of the outro to Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms", or Knopfler's work on the outro of The Notting Hillbillies cover of "Feel Like Going Home"

Excellent

[swingset]

Originally Posted by fHumble fHingaz

Just listening again... I think I like the louder drums a little better.

The outro guitar is so cool - it puts me in mind of the outro to Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms", or Knopfler's work on the outro of The Notting Hillbillies cover of "Feel Like Going Home"

Excellent

Anyone who compares me to Knopfler gets on my Christmas list, lol.

BTW, saw him last tour in Houston...72 years old and still sounds incredible, and writes great tunes. Amazing guy.

[swingset]

Originally Posted by eq1

I like the louder drums and the extra 'swell'. Still seems like vox is a little harsh, sibilant. Maybe whole mix is a little hot in the ~2k-4k range? I listened through on headphones and then switched to monitors this time...

IF it were my mix, I'd probably try to soften the vox without losing the clarity, maybe turn it down by a db or 2. It seems like there's a lot of interesting detail in the background, like vox FX, reverb tails and the like, that I wish were reaching out into the foreground a bit more. I'm thinking the alleged harshness of the vox is probably masking some of that. Of course it's a fine line, as you want to keep the vox front and center, clear, etc...

Anyway, pretty sure this vox harsh/sibilance perception is real. But overall, it's a very nice song and mix, it's not like this kind of tweaking would make or break it. The way it is, for example, probably would be more appropriate for car listening, where vox cuts through the noise, whereas the type of changes I'm suggesting would be more appropriate for quiet listening environments.

I will flirt around a bit with the vocal chain/eq and see if I can tamp down some of that harshness.

[eq1]

^ I messed around with eq, comp, and limiter master fx on your song. In general I was pushing down everything above about 1k, a little boost down low, a cut at 310Hz... I think all this got it closer to what 'I' wanted to hear, more or less brought the background out and around the vox, made the vox louder but not quite as harsh, gave it a little more oomph, etc... I've attached the fx chain (just reaper fx) if you want to take a peek, I don't know, it might help to have that contrast to test. It doesn't seem terribly different though, and there is a loss of clarity that I would have rather retained... Hope my doing this doesn't tread on your turf, it's just fun for me, and interesting...

[fHumble fHingaz]

Originally Posted by swingset

Anyone who compares me to Knopfler gets on my Christmas list, lol.

BTW, saw him last tour in Houston...72 years old and still sounds incredible, and writes great tunes. Amazing guy.

Haha, well then we are definitely of the same mind on that subject. The first Dire Straits album inspired me to go electric, after playing acoustic from the age of 7. MK was definitely the biggest influence on my electric guitar playing for quite a while.

[fHumble fHingaz]

Originally Posted by swingset

Anyone who compares me to Knopfler gets on my Christmas list, lol.

BTW, saw him last tour in Houston...72 years old and still sounds incredible, and writes great tunes. Amazing guy.

Haha, well then we are definitely of the same mind on that subject. The first Dire Straits album inspired me to go electric, after playing acoustic from the age of 7. MK was definitely the biggest influence on my electric guitar playing for quite a while.

[eq1]

Here's another one (master fx chain). This one's a little more radical, pretty extreme eq focused more on the vox tone and how it sits in the mix. I don't think it sounds too different either though.

IF I were mixing this from tracks I'd be going back to the vox track and compressing it more, de-essing, and applying eq to it alone, and then seeing what was left to do... Probably a little more compression on the drums, too.

Overall it seems like I'm wanting to pull all the instruments out and around the vox more; the vox kind of sits on top in awkward ways sometimes. The two fx chains both end up bringing the synth pad out quite a bit more... I think they both end up sacrificing instrumental and FX detail, though, focusing mainly on voice... Oh yeah, also, overall I'm wanting to 'tilt' the frequency spectrum more toward the low-end; if 1k were the middle, basically rotating everything around that pivot point.

Anyway, grain of salt - don't take my contributions here too seriously... I enter the reaper mix contest and get near last every time! My 'ears' I think are pretty good, my skills and experience, etc. are...behind the curve.

[eq1]

I'm still listening to this a bit. One thing that has caught my ear - I guess we can say it relates to "movement," one thing you mentioned you were open to comments on... But I realize you're probably way beyond 'tracking', or re-tracking, so I'm just mentioning this in case, who knows what, you end up re-working things at some point.

I think it's verse 2 part 2, or verse 2 2nd stanza, where the line is, "Feels like lyrics no one wrote." Ideally, I think, the melody for those words would change-up. Each of the verses, including this one, starts on I think the 5th, so it's something like, '5553343'. Here though, I think it should 'change-up' to help the song move along, to transition, maybe in part because the following lyrics are akin to a high point, with the stanza ending on the song theme/title.

So, instead of starting on the 5th, "feels" being the 5th note in the key, start on the tonic. It'd be something like: '1131344' - "feels like lyr-ics no one wrote." Just before this line you hum a similar melody - "mmm mmm mm mm" - '1 3 4 3'. The word "feels" flows from that, or rather I think it should.

I wouldn't call this a "glaring hole," but it does catch my ear as some sort of 'musical mistake', or poetic mistake... You need some sort of transitory thing there, rather than repeating the same melody - which tends to either create the same expectations as before, or fail to create a new expectation, or fails to create some anticipation...

The following line begins on the 5th - "scratched a-cross" (556), so starting on the tonic with "feels" stretches those two lines out, creates more tension when you do get to that 2nd line - and then spills/resolves into the title line...

I know, probably TMI - too much information. But, whatever.

[swingset]

Originally Posted by eq1

I'm still listening to this a bit. One thing that has caught my ear - I guess we can say it relates to "movement," one thing you mentioned you were open to comments on... But I realize you're probably way beyond 'tracking', or re-tracking, so I'm just mentioning this in case, who knows what, you end up re-working things at some point.

I think it's verse 2 part 2, or verse 2 2nd stanza, where the line is, "Feels like lyrics no one wrote." Ideally, I think, the melody for those words would change-up. Each of the verses, including this one, starts on I think the 5th, so it's something like, '5553343'. Here though, I think it should 'change-up' to help the song move along, to transition, maybe in part because the following lyrics are akin to a high point, with the stanza ending on the song theme/title.

So, instead of starting on the 5th, "feels" being the 5th note in the key, start on the tonic. It'd be something like: '1131344' - "feels like lyr-ics no one wrote." Just before this line you hum a similar melody - "mmm mmm mm mm" - '1 3 4 3'. The word "feels" flows from that, or rather I think it should.

I wouldn't call this a "glaring hole," but it does catch my ear as some sort of 'musical mistake', or poetic mistake... You need some sort of transitory thing there, rather than repeating the same melody - which tends to either create the same expectations as before, or fail to create a new expectation, or fails to create some anticipation...

The following line begins on the 5th - "scratched a-cross" (556), so starting on the tonic with "feels" stretches those two lines out, creates more tension when you do get to that 2nd line - and then spills/resolves into the title line...

I know, probably TMI - too much information. But, whatever.

No, I appreciate the criticism. I'm a very reluctant lyricist/singer, only do it because I can't fire me...lol.

I struggle more with that particular facet of writing more than any other, mostly because I write fast and don't really labor over the cadence and vocal melodies as much as I probably should, it's for sure a hole in my compositions but time constraints really are a liability for me.

I'll sit down and play with that a bit. I took your mixing advice on the highs/sibilance of the vocal takes and you were absolutely spot on, with some delicate subtractive editing, it opened up the reverb tails a lot, so that was great advice.

[eq1]

I think your singing is fine, good voice/timbre, you probably don't give yourself enough credit...

[swingset]

Originally Posted by eq1

I think your singing is fine, good voice/timbre, you probably don't give yourself enough credit...

Likely true. Always loved being a background/harmony singer, but it's hiding from the scrutiny of the crowd.

I had a choir teacher when I was young politely sit me down and say "Hey, singing is not for everyone".

I think it scarred me. Lol.

[eq1]

Originally Posted by swingset

I had a choir teacher when I was young politely sit me down and say "Hey, singing is not for everyone".

Well, either they didn't know what they were talking about, or you really improved. Technically speaking, the singing seems perfectly fine to me, plus, it's not like this kind of song demands big singing chops (no Michael Bolton impersonation necessary here). If you can hit the notes, keep time, and do it with authenticity - all of which you do - I think that's all you need.

And, personally, I really like the timbre of your voice. It has an endearing quality to it - gruff yet vulnerable, personable... I could easily see it appealing to a broad audience, not that that's critical. But, there's a sort of country-twang to it, the voice + intonation or whatever you'd call that. Yet it has a dirty sort of rock/alternative-ness to it, too... I think the same could be said of the music in general, it has a nice blend of rock/alt + country... Listening to it, I've been reminded of Bruce Springsteen, or more specifically his song, "I'm on Fire," plus this or that song off of the Verve's "A Storm in Heaven" album, both of which I like a lot...

You mention on that webpage something about not finding someone else to sing it, but I think that's totally unnecessary. I'm sure anyone else here would agree with that.

Anyway, granted I do hate the virtuosic-type singing (music isn't a circus act, or it shouldn't be), so I'm partial to your style from the get-go. But still...

[swingset]

Originally Posted by eq1

Well, either they didn't know what they were talking about, or you really improved.

A bit of both, lol. I think my issue is I write for a certain kind of voice, and sometimes what I'm hearing and want to bring to the mix isn't mine. But, it's not a strong enough disappointment to keep me from singing so it's not a huge thing.

I'm with you on the other points...especially "I'm On Fire"...that's an arrangement or tone I really dig and have used it often in my stuff, so the comparison is absolutely correct.