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Old 02-17-2010, 11:18 AM   #1
kerryg
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Default Reaper Developer Challenge

Hi Reaper developers. If you work in multiple applications in any given day - particularly if you've used some of them for over a decade - I have an unusual challenge for you.

Let me preface this by saying I love Reaper, both on Mac OSX and on PC, and I advocate strongly for it, both to my peers and to my students at the production/engineering school at which I teach.

The Challenge:

Open one of the main applications you use in any given day and reverse the positions of the two keys you use most frequently in your work day. I suggest "Command" and "Option". Then spend the rest of that work day switching between that and your other (still correctly-mapped) apps.

That's all. Thank you.

[If the option to assign "copy" to "option-drag" (as per Apple's User Interface Guidelines and the behaviour of pretty much every other Mac app ever made) instead of "command-drag" has been included somewhere in the preferences and I've merely missed the place in the preferences where I can toggle it, I withdraw the challenge and humbly beg your pardon.]

Last edited by kerryg; 02-21-2010 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:13 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by kerryg View Post
...reverse the positions of the two keys you use most frequently in your work day.
I get your point, but this is not as simple as that. Imagine being very familiar with Reaper on Windows. Now go use Reaper on a Mac. You would be messed up.

Waves uses Alt + Click for resetting plugin parameters because Pro Tools does. I'm not sure if other software or even plugin manufacturers do. I won't even start with (Open)Office for Mac. And F2? Shouldn't it be Cmd + I? The list goes on.

The Cmd + drag feels familiar to me since I came from Reaper for Windows only 3 years ago. I very rarely drag anything else in OSX for copying.

What I do miss though are the Cmd + C and Cmd + V shortcuts for Copy and Paste. I guess they work in some places, but the places are few.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:18 PM   #3
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I get your point, but this is not as simple as that. Imagine being very familiar with Reaper on Windows. Now go use Reaper on a Mac. You would be messed up.

I can't imagine.

Fortunately, since this has nothing to do with how Reaper behaves on Windows and is solely about whether a Mac application adheres to Apple's User Interface guidelines and the expectations that all Mac users will have of its interface, there's no need for me to do so.

Although in the interest of courtesy and convenience to Windows users I'd agree it would be nice if it was a toggle they can turn off.

After all, we wouldn't want to force people to retrain habits they'd spent years developing, would we? I could imagine that would suck. It might cause them to curse out loud at the screen many, many times in the course of a day's editing when their long-trained workflow was interrupted, for example.

Besides, I'm not really asking anyone to change anything. I'm just asking them to spend eight hours working that way, after which they can assign their own priority to fixing this. If they find it's no big deal to have one of your most frequently used functions reverse itself when you switch apps, then I'm happy to live with "it's no big deal".

Last edited by kerryg; 02-17-2010 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:11 PM   #4
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there are a few major feature request with lots of votes that should get put into reaper at some point and solve this with things like adjusting what modifiers do what..it's just a case of waiting.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:44 PM   #5
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there are a few major feature request with lots of votes that should get put into reaper at some point and solve this with things like adjusting what modifiers do what..it's just a case of waiting.
Fair enough. I don't consider this a FR per se - it's simply incorrect behavior for a Mac app, exactly like quitting without a "save" prompt would be. But I have no problem being patient, as long as it's acknowledged as being an actual issue rather than some matter of personal preference, and work's under way that will resolve it at some reasonable priority level.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:21 PM   #6
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Actually, I think there's a serious consistency problem in REAPER, both in reference to other DAWs/plugins/apps and even inside itself, and it's in Windows as well.

Most plugins on Windows use Shift for fine adjustments, Ctrl + Click for reset.

REAPER uses Ctrl for fine control adjustment, Shift for other things like group override edit and so on. But sometimes Ctrl is also used for group override etc.

Beside this, the use of Shift, Ctrl and Alt isn't always consistent throughout all the application areas (for example, try to remember which default keys shortcuts bring the cursor to start and end of time selection or loop zone and try to remember which qualifier allows moving the whole time selection or set the time selection while clicking a region).

I love the fact that there are so many useful mouse/key gestures available, but they need rationalization IMHO.

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Old 02-17-2010, 04:38 PM   #7
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Yeah, we have a mac upstairs. I hate using it. I would rather see the mac fall in line with windows standards.

How the hell do you move the cursor to the end of a line of text anyway?
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:59 PM   #8
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Yeah, we have a mac upstairs. I hate using it. I would rather see the mac fall in line with windows standards.
Since you probably haven't chosen to go into the business of designing and selling apps for Mac users, I'd say things probably all worked out for the best for everyone then.

I have no idea why I have to keep explaining this. This is *nothing whatsoever to do with Windows users*.

Look at the forum you're in. This is a Mac OSX thread, and we're here to improve the Mac OSX version of Reaper. Nothing we do here has *anything whatsoever* to do with you. This is not something that will affect you as a Windows user.

I use Mac, PC and Linux systems every day. Each one is great and each one sucks and each one does something the other doesn't.

Computers are toasters. They're a box of highly organized dirt. Reporting your emotions about an operating system here has nothing to do with this thread.

The issue is "as of version 3, the modifier key that invokes copy-drag is still incorrect on Reaper Mac OSX". Not different - wrong.

Last edited by kerryg; 02-17-2010 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:08 PM   #9
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How the hell do you move the cursor to the end of a line of text anyway?
CMD+Right arrow. It moves per word or per line, depending on app implementation.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by kerryg View Post
[If the option to assign "copy" to "option-drag" (as per Apple's User Interface Guidelines and the behaviour of pretty much every other Mac app ever made) instead of "command-drag" has been included somewhere in the preferences and I've merely missed the place in the preferences where I can toggle it, I withdraw the challenge and humbly beg your pardon.]
+1 here

If Reaper hopes to get any traction with users of other Mac DAWs (or any other Mac app) the basic standard of Mac behavior *has* to be adhered to. Otherwise the first time a user attempts to make an edit and the app doesn't behave as expected, either it's assumed to be broken or gets closed with a roll of the eyes and the utterance "too hard...."

I'm all for making things as customizable as you want ... but default behavior should be standard.

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Old 02-17-2010, 08:52 PM   #11
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CMD+Right arrow. It moves per word or per line, depending on app implementation.
Thanks, I'll check it out.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:08 PM   #12
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Since you probably haven't chosen to go into the business of designing and selling apps for Mac users, I'd say things probably all worked out for the best for everyone then.

I have no idea why I have to keep explaining this. This is *nothing whatsoever to do with Windows users*.

Look at the forum you're in. This is a Mac OSX thread, and we're here to improve the Mac OSX version of Reaper. Nothing we do here has *anything whatsoever* to do with you. This is not something that will affect you as a Windows user.

I use Mac, PC and Linux systems every day. Each one is great and each one sucks and each one does something the other doesn't.

Computers are toasters. They're a box of highly organized dirt. Reporting your emotions about an operating system here has nothing to do with this thread.

The issue is "as of version 3, the modifier key that invokes copy-drag is still incorrect on Reaper Mac OSX". Not different - wrong.
Maybe I'll use REAPER on the Mac at some point. It's a might bit pompous to suggest that nothing you do here has anything to do with me. Sheesh.

Anyway, I don't have any emotions about computers or operating systems there, Chico. Get over yourself.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:33 PM   #13
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Maybe I'll use REAPER on the Mac at some point. It's a might bit pompous to suggest that nothing you do here has anything to do with me. Sheesh.

Anyway, I don't have any emotions about computers or operating systems there, Chico. Get over yourself.
Sorry for the testiness; a day of editing drums with my modifier keys turned completely ass-backwards wears on my nerves.

No, this won't affect Reaper Windows users on Windows. And it won't affect Reaper Windows users using Reaper on Mac, since I presume it will be made a preference that can be toggled off with one mouse click. I can assure you we don't want to interfere with your ability to have your keys mapped wrong, if that's what floats your boat.

I can't see any logic at all behind the idea that Mac users should accept having their keys mapped ass backwards full time for the comfort of the occasional Windows user. I've heard that said a couple of times, and I can't even begin to make sense of it. Turn the situation around and think about it for two seconds. It doesn't matter where it came from, or what you're used to - today Reaper's either a Mac app or it isn't.

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Old 02-17-2010, 09:43 PM   #14
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Turn the situation around and think about it for two seconds.
umm, ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryg View Post

I can't see any logic at all behind the idea that cross-platform reaper users should accept having their keys mapped ass backwards full time for the comfort of the Mac-only user.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:48 PM   #15
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umm, ok
You caught the part about this being a preference to toggle, right? This thread is not about me wanting to force hard-coded Mac key bindings on users who prefer the Windows ones.

[I just re-read your post. Been a long week, maybe I should adjust my sense of humour ]

Last edited by kerryg; 02-18-2010 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:33 AM   #16
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While specific drag-copy shortut example doesn't bother me very much, it is a valid point, and I agree with the OP to some extent on a more general level. Using Reaper on a OS X machine (no I'm not calling it "Macs" - hackint0shes work just fine as well) could be much more pleasant (/less of a PITA, if you will) if it would adhere better to some (more) of such general OS X 'standards'.

An example that bothers me: CMD+Q is generally used to quit an app, it works fine in Reaper too. If you are working on a project that has been modified, a dialogue pops up asking "Save current project before quitting?" with 3 options "Yes", "No", "Cancel". Now here's the thing: just about every other OS X app would have said "Don't save" with CMD+D as a keyboard shortcut to discard changes and quit without saving. So, if you just want to quit you'd typically press CMD+Q, CMD+D. Reaper doesn't even have a shortcut to choose "No", afaik.

Another personal biggie in this regard: Spaces compatibility. When Reaper breaks Spaces (it *does*...), it breaks the entire user experience on the platform ("you should use Reaper's screensets instead" is not an acceptable answer.)

Sure, these kind of things aren't first priority hardcore bugs. But it absolutely is a matter of poor design. It can not only be confusing/frustrating to the daily user (even though I close Reaper thousands of times, I do the same to other apps a multitude of that so that will still remain the default pavlov response), it leaves the general impression of sloppy and careless coding -- which most of us *know* to be untrue, and we will probably learn to live with such quirks -- but that will not help potential new users on the very first part of their learning curve at all. They will be absolutely right when they think "this stuff just doesn't work right". I am pretty sure that polishing this kind of non-audio related general compatibility stuff will benefit Reaper's uptake.

And, btw, in my experience, the average Mac user (right - now I /am/ excluding the hackint0shes ;P) is a lot more sensitive to look and feel then the average Windows user (you may revive the Win vs Mac flamewar now. ;P)
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:08 AM   #17
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While specific drag-copy shortut example doesn't bother me very much, it is a valid point, and I agree with the OP to some extent on a more general level. Using Reaper on a OS X machine (no I'm not calling it "Macs" - hackint0shes work just fine as well) could be much more pleasant (/less of a PITA, if you will) if it would adhere better to some (more) of such general OS X 'standards'.

An example that bothers me: CMD+Q is generally used to quit an app, it works fine in Reaper too. If you are working on a project that has been modified, a dialogue pops up asking "Save current project before quitting?" with 3 options "Yes", "No", "Cancel". Now here's the thing: just about every other OS X app would have said "Don't save" with CMD+D as a keyboard shortcut to discard changes and quit without saving. So, if you just want to quit you'd typically press CMD+Q, CMD+D. Reaper doesn't even have a shortcut to choose "No", afaik.

Another personal biggie in this regard: Spaces compatibility. When Reaper breaks Spaces (it *does*...), it breaks the entire user experience on the platform ("you should use Reaper's screensets instead" is not an acceptable answer.)

Sure, these kind of things aren't first priority hardcore bugs. But it absolutely is a matter of poor design. It can not only be confusing/frustrating to the daily user (even though I close Reaper thousands of times, I do the same to other apps a multitude of that so that will still remain the default pavlov response), it leaves the general impression of sloppy and careless coding -- which most of us *know* to be untrue, and we will probably learn to live with such quirks -- but that will not help potential new users on the very first part of their learning curve at all. They will be absolutely right when they think "this stuff just doesn't work right". I am pretty sure that polishing this kind of non-audio related general compatibility stuff will benefit Reaper's uptake.

And, btw, in my experience, the average Mac user (right - now I /am/ excluding the hackint0shes ;P) is a lot more sensitive to look and feel then the average Windows user (you may revive the Win vs Mac flamewar now. ;P)
I can certainly understand folks requesting tweaks for increased aesthetics. But just to keep the thread on track, I'll reiterate - this challenge isn't about tweaking the aesthetic experience. This is about something extremely simple and basic, about absolute Mac Programming 101 stuff: the "copy - drag" keys in Reaper - one of the most frequently used parts of many Mac users' editing workflow - are mapped backwards (Command, which is flat out wrong on Mac OS, is being used rather than Option) and there's no "checkbox" or "preference" to correct them.

This *is* a first priority thing.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:52 PM   #18
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I agree with the OP.
Basic Mac UI conventions should be adhered too.

The mac version is not created for the PC cat who happens to find himself with a mac, once in a blue moon.

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Old 02-18-2010, 11:12 PM   #19
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Yup, been using Macs since 1993 and all my apps behave as Mac apps should, except Reaper. Love the program, just wish that I didn't have to readjust my intuitive key mapping just for this one app.

But it's still better than bamboo under the nails.
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:41 PM   #20
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It would be nice to have the OP's wish (mac keymapping) integrated as Reaper leaves beta.
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:53 AM   #21
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In OSX I use DoubleCommand to make me feel at home (Windows ;-) :
http://doublecommand.sourceforge.net/
Maybe it can help to solve some of the problems you describe ?
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Old 02-19-2010, 07:58 AM   #22
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Good point there.

Reaper is in good company with this ass-backwards thing, except for Protools, it was the Windows version that irritated me severely. Pretty messy.
How about another example or two for the Reaper Mac side of things. Practical examples have the invariable knack of peaking the interest of the Cockos boys as they pile up.

-edit- deleted a bunch of double posts

Let's come up with a coherent list of stuff. Everyone can contribute and dupicate submissions don't matter. The more people contribute, the easier for the devs to have this straightened out.
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:13 PM   #23
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In OSX I use DoubleCommand to make me feel at home (Windows ;-) :
http://doublecommand.sourceforge.net/
Maybe it can help to solve some of the problems you describe ?
Looks like an interesting app. But it appears to be global, rather than "per application"; wouldn't that make life far worse for Mac users by correcting Reaper's key commands at the expense of immediately inverting the modifier keys of every *other* application on your computer which *does* have its keys mapped correctly?

[Ahh, I just grasped where you're going with this - this is not something that you're suggesting would be of use to Mac users - it's something that would help Windows users crossing over to Reaper Mac - if Reaper were designed to conform to Mac standards. Not a piecemeal solution; this app would allow Windows users to reverse the modifier keys of all Mac apps - *which would include a Mac-standard-compliant Reaper Mac* - at the same time. Nice!]

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Old 02-20-2010, 07:07 AM   #24
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I just noticed this thread and I gotta say... I've been using Macs since oh, 86' so it's not really a preference, it's my work. Back then there was desktop publishing or dos. As I'm a longtime Logic user, I've been messing with Reaper for a year or so, to try and configure the Reaper Mac version like Logic. Hmmm... aside from the already mentioned unusual cmnd. key interpretations, some of the settings are absolutely impossible for me to get used to. And unless there would be a setting I could change, I can't see me (or any other Logic user) using Reaper instead of Logic.

I'm not a ProTools user, and I've read that the Reaper Mac version is sort of geared towards those fine folks but that playback cursor jumping to where I click on the screen (regardless of loop area) needs to be a configurable setting. Like a lot of things... If I click on a clip to edit it, I want the looped area to playback from the beginning... not everywhere I click on the screen! Maybe just me but making the Mac version as "configurable" as possible would make it easier to adapt to and adopt.
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:38 AM   #25
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Command+drag rather than option+drag to copy is an OK example, though the only reference to this specific action in the Apple user interface guidelines was:

Quote:
The Option key can also be used with the mouse to modify the effect of a click or drag. For example, in some applications pressing Option while dragging an object makes a copy of the object.
This is more a case of a de facto standard than a strict interface guideline, but that doesn't really matter, if the situation is that command+drag is a universally bothersome shortcut, it would be good to give users a way to customize it.

Are there other similar examples in Reaper?
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:09 AM   #26
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Command+drag rather than option+drag to copy is an OK example, though the only reference to this specific action in the Apple user interface guidelines was:

Quote:
The Option key can also be used with the mouse to modify the effect of a click or drag. For example, in some applications pressing Option while dragging an object makes a copy of the object.
This is more a case of a de facto standard than a strict interface guideline, but that doesn't really matter, if the situation is that command+drag is a universally bothersome shortcut, it would be good to give users a way to customize it.
Hi Schwa - I'd interpret "some" in that passage in the sense of "those applications where the notion of copy-drag is relevant" (rather than the full sentence implying "some apps use option for copy-drag, others may use something else"). This passage in the Apple User Interface Guidelines seems more relevant to the acknowledgement of "option" as the standard:

Quote:
Move Versus Copy

If the source and destination are in the same container (for example, a window or a volume), a drag-and-drop operation is interpreted as a move (that is, cut and paste). Dragging an item from one container to another initiates a copy (copy and paste). The user can perform a copy operation within the same container by pressing the Option key while dragging. When performing a copy operation, indicate a copy operation to the user by using the copy pointer. (See “Standard Pointers”)

<snip>

When to Check the Option Key State

Your application should check whether the Option key is pressed at drop time. This behavior gives the user the flexibility of making the move-or-copy decision at a later point in the drag-and-drop sequence. Pressing the Option key during the drag-and-drop sequence should not “latch” for the remainder of the sequence.

Note: The Option key does not act as a toggle switch; Option-dragging between containers always initiates a copy operation. This guideline helps users learn that Option means copy.
http://developer.apple.com/mac/libra...TP30000364-TP9

As you can tell from the way that passage is written, it's so deeply ingrained into the Mac Way Of Doing Things that even in the developer docs they see no need to be more explicit, it's just an assumed thing. Not even a hint that any other key should be checked.

You've already covered some of the most important ground by having command and alt exchanged for things like "save" etc - I'll let others talk about Mac refinements beyond that. I do see merit in consistent behaviour across platforms and I understand the balancing act you're doing - I wouldn't harp on "option" but it's critical to maintaining trained workflow on Mac.

It would be killer to see it mappable either way in both platform versions - the main cross-platform input we've got on these threads is from Windows users wanting to preserve their workflow when using the Mac version, but as Reaper Mac grows more popular you'll be seeing the reverse more often.

Last edited by kerryg; 02-22-2010 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:05 PM   #27
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Quote:
v3.32pre2 - February 23 2010

+ OSX: preference to use opt+drag to copy items, command+drag to slip content
I am simply in awe. Thank you gents!
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:13 AM   #28
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An example that bothers me: CMD+Q is generally used to quit an app, it works fine in Reaper too. If you are working on a project that has been modified, a dialogue pops up asking "Save current project before quitting?" with 3 options "Yes", "No", "Cancel". Now here's the thing: just about every other OS X app would have said "Don't save" with CMD+D as a keyboard shortcut to discard changes and quit without saving. So, if you just want to quit you'd typically press CMD+Q, CMD+D. Reaper doesn't even have a shortcut to choose "No", afaik.
i dunno this for a fact, but it seems that cocoa dialog boxes are different than the old carbon ones?

here, one may use the tab key here to move the focus ring, then the space bar to execute the "ringed"
button command. from what i can tell, this -is- the standard for a cocoa dialog box.

imo, whether a "quit" dialog in reaper should work in the way you describe a different question;
many cocoa-based osx apps appear to use the same "quit" dialog as reaper, so to me, it seems like
tab, space-bar is becoming the new de-facto standard?


Quote:
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Are there other similar examples in Reaper?
yes, i don't dig having to click twice to operate a context menu... e.g. the "quick-add" fx context menu. (most of them,
in fact.. but not all!) imo, if reaper were to follow the de-facto mac standard here, it could save many osx users "googles
of clicks" per session. but i understand that this particular request may not be easy for cockos to meet, so i can live with it.

jeff dinces

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Old 02-24-2010, 04:50 AM   #29
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If we are here to discuss the OS X standards and functionality, then IMO the scrolling on notebooks has to be addressed ASAP. The way it currently works (when it does) gives the impression of an unfinished product. Also the problem with typing values in plugins value fields is quite annoying.

These two are on the top of my list.
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:27 PM   #30
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the latest reaper beta supports magic mouse gestures, and horizontal scrolling (works with
mighty mouse, no special configuration needed). so perhaps all the laptop scratch pad
gestures will also be working with 3.22 ?

as for text boxes in plug-ins: that issue is not consistent on my system;
so i wouldn't expect any "global" fix for it. probably it might be a good
idea to report each case separately...
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:12 AM   #31
omu
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3.31 here and nothing changed.
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:17 AM   #32
cerberus
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sorry, i meant the forthcoming 3.32
for which a public beta is available.
from the release notes, the items which refer to osx:

+ OSX: fixed bin/cue rendering on PPC
+ OSX: better initial positioning of popup windows
+ OSX: magic mouse multitouch swipe can be mapped using the action system
+ OSX: preference to use opt+drag to copy items, command+drag to slip content
+ OSX: show render progress in docker
+ OSX AU: fixed Apple DLSMusicDevice
+ OSX AU: ignore multiple output busses if the plugin is marked as buggy (may fix some silent plugins)
+ OSX: fixed plugin wet/dry knob display going to zero when switching to generic plugin UI
+ OSX: command+H hides REAPER
+ OSX: JS editor keyboard usability enhancements, drawing cleanups

Last edited by cerberus; 02-25-2010 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:24 AM   #33
omu
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But all versions are still beta... The download page doesn't list the new version. It would be really nice to have that sorted out.

Thanks.
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Old 02-25-2010, 12:56 PM   #34
kerryg
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Default It's coming,

it just has to be introduced in the pre-release versions first before it can make it into the mainstream beta. Patience, it's in the pipelline and at the speed these guys work you won't have long to wait.
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Old 02-25-2010, 03:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryg View Post
it just has to be introduced in the pre-release versions first before it can make it into the mainstream beta. Patience, it's in the pipelline and at the speed these guys work you won't have long to wait.
Or you can get the latest pre-release from the land o leet site (more details in the pre-release forum).
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:47 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryg View Post
I can assure you we don't want to interfere with your ability to have your keys mapped wrong, if that's what floats your boat
wrong in this case would be subjective!

thus making your use of the word "wrong" wrong

non standard is not incorrect, but it can be a pain in the butt!



EDIT, sorry KvR withdrawal syndrome
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Subz View Post
wrong in this case would be subjective!

thus making your use of the word "wrong" wrong

non standard is not incorrect, but it can be a pain in the butt!



EDIT, sorry KvR withdrawal syndrome
Hehe. We've had the same reaction from PC users the last couple of times this topic's been brought up: "why can't you Mac users get used to Windows key modifiers? What about the inconvenience Windows users might suffer on the occasional moments they might use a Mac?".

The blind spot in that thinking is astonishing ("I haven't given a half-second's thought to the inconvenience that might put you to every day on your own home platform"), and us Dads hate to pass up the "teachable moment" when it presents itself.

(Disclaimer: I make music every day on both Mac and PC.)
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:39 PM   #38
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work flow is important!!

i fully support your FR i just can not condone your use of the word "wrong"

as a win user i swap the apple & command key in the keyboard preferences when using mac (the wife hated me for it intill our son smashed up her apple keyboard & she had to use a windows keyboard

i disagree with the "get used to it this way" attitude when it comes to reaper as reaper in most cases can be set to work any way you want,

reaper is to 2010 what burger king was to 1990 ("Have It Your Way")

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Old 02-25-2010, 08:51 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subz View Post
work flow is important!!

i fully support your FR i just can not condone your use of the word "wrong"

as a win user i swap the apple & command key in the keyboard preferences when using mac (the wife hated me for it intill our son smashed up her apple keyboard & she had to use a windows keyboard

i disagree with the "get used to it this way" attitude when it comes to reaper as reaper in most cases can be set to work any way you want,

reaper is to 2010 what burger king was to 1990 ("Have It Your Way")

Exactly - this is about having the choice. I'm a dual-platform Reaper user, and so naturally I don't think of one platform's assignment of a particular modifier key as being inherently "right" or "wrong" either - given that the modifiers are equally ergonomic (ie "tilde" as a modifier would be unfortunate) it just boils down to what workflow habits you've trained. I deliberately used the word "wrong" to get people to confront a problem in their own perceptions ("since the arbitrary modifier we landed on happens to be the one users of *my* OS are trained to use, no problem exists and no choice is needed").

Last edited by kerryg; 02-26-2010 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 02-28-2010, 10:27 AM   #40
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Are there other similar examples in Reaper?
I don't think you mean for this thread to become a catch-all, but yes there are other examples of broken UI conventions. In fact, I've seen hints at some of these in other threads.

The Mac OS dock is what it is, love it or hate it. The more apps that fail to take advantage of it the less accustomed to trusting it we become! Clicking the REAPER dock icon currently does not maximize a minimized main window. The only apps I have that misbehave in this way are Windows ports / rewrites.

The menu File --> "Recent Projects" does not indicate an action. It should say File -> "Open Recent Project". If the menu item "Recent Projects..." was intended to open a list that could be acted upon, it should take the ellipsis.

Apparently addressed in a future version, but to drive the OT home:
Selected items should be copied if the option key is held at release time during a drag operation on them. http://developer.apple.com/mac/libra...00364-TPXREF30
"The user can perform a copy operation within the same container by pressing the Option key while dragging."
"Note: The Option key does not act as a toggle switch; Option-dragging between containers always initiates a copy operation. This guideline helps users learn that Option means copy."
Or to look at it from the command-key's perspective, selection is performed on Mac by clicking. Shift-Click extends the selection in a continuous manner, Command-click in a discontinuous manner. The relevant HIG doc: http://developer.apple.com/mac/libra...00361-TPXREF21

There isn't so much as a note about making spatial marquee selections by invoking the context-menu-bound Secondary Click on the mouse! This is just alien on the Mac.

I'm confused about why there's even a debate about the importance of UI conventions in a thread on a Mac app forum! This is HIG 101 stuff. I understand how the inconsistencies got here from a windows app, but these are the guidelines, and there's no persuasive reason to break them.



p.s. i just tried to right-click-drag a selection in the finder. CURSE! We need our muscle-memory intact!
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