Old 11-30-2020, 12:23 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
So, just to be clear what you say about deselecting items, does this mean that if I have several items selected on different tracks at different times, I need to drag the edges of the earliest one for it to work properly?



Yes, it wouldn't work otherwise, because the item you would be dragging would be ripple moving according to the movement of the previous selected item(s). That is why some software chose to not ripple move the selected items. So that they stay in place and you can drag them. Either you have guaranteed sync of later items by sacrificing the ability to drag any selected item, or you gain that ability by sacrificing the sync of some items, as you saw in the previous examples.

On another note:



Do you have a color preference?
(it doesn't feel like it lags after all)
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:10 PM   #82
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I advice you to download davinci resonve to makes tests. It is free and cross platforms. It might help you decide on edge cases.
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Old 11-30-2020, 03:33 PM   #83
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Demo looking great, Amagalma 😀

I totally understand the restriction on de-selecting earlier items, and can live with it happily.

Re: colouring items to Ripple, good to hear that it doesn't significantly slow the process down. In terms of a colour preference, could it be user-defined via an RGB value in the script? But I guess you need a default... hmmmm. Possibly the best choices (for me) would be black or white, since I never use those for tracks with items on.

I don't know if this is possible... looking at your demo, it seems as though the colour change occurs when the edge begins to move. Is it possible to have the colour change either when the edge is grabbed (but not moved yet), or (even better) when the mouse is over the edge point but not even grabbed yet? The point of it is to alert the user to what items will be affected by moving the edge BEFORE moving it, in case there is some damage about to be done!

We are really getting into the "ideal world" territory with this though, so if what you show here is the best it can realistically be, I have no complaints about that!

Two more general questions:

1) Will this script work nicely with your other Coloured Rippling script if that is also running?

2) If I move an edge with this Edge Ripple script running, and then press Undo, what happens? Will it Undo the last edge move, all edge moves since it was first run, or will it undo PART of the effects of the last move (eg unRippling only some items)?

Thanks
Andy
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Old 11-30-2020, 04:03 PM   #84
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I advice you to download davinci resonve to makes tests. It is free and cross platforms. It might help you decide on edge cases.
Will do... although I have already settled on the "ideal" behavior and started implementing it.. Hopefully, all will work out well and I won't have to redo everything from scratch

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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
In terms of a colour preference, could it be user-defined via an RGB value in the script? But I guess you need a default... hmmmm. Possibly the best choices (for me) would be black or white, since I never use those for tracks with items on.
It is user-defined inside the script. I'll set black as default.

Quote:
I don't know if this is possible... looking at your demo, it seems as though the colour change occurs when the edge begins to move.
Is it possible to have the colour change either when the edge is grabbed (but not moved yet), or (even better) when the mouse is over the edge point but not even grabbed yet?
Good catch! Fixed! It is not possible to change the colors when the mouse is over the edge.. I mean, theoretically it is, but it would really slow down the script!.. Currently, the moment you click on an edge, the items change color. If you don't move the mouse, then you can see what is going to move, and decide if you want to move the mouse and do the edit, or release the mouse button, and everything will be as if nothing has ever happened.

Quote:
1) Will this script work nicely with your other Coloured Rippling script if that is also running?

2) If I move an edge with this Edge Ripple script running, and then press Undo, what happens? Will it Undo the last edge move, all edge moves since it was first run, or will it undo PART of the effects of the last move (eg unRippling only some items)?
1) I don't see why not.. They are completely independent.

2) It will undo what the script has done, but unfortunately it cannot undo the undo points that Reaper itself automatically created. The edge resizing is done by Reaper and shows as "Resize media items". There is no way to avoid this undo point be created. Everything else is done by the script and is consolidated into one undo point named "Ripple edge editing" or "Ripple edge editing (incl envs)" (if move envelopes with items was enabled).
Regarding automatic undo points by Reaper, try this (no need to have any ripple mode enabled or the script running): select a few items, then go over the edge of one of the selected items, grab and move it. Items stay selected. Now grab it without moving the mouse and let the button. Reaper lost the item selection as if you had clicked that item, and an undo point is created named "Change media item selection".

So, in a few words, in order to undo everything you will have to undo 2 or 3 times. One for the script, and another one or two for the automatic undo points created by Reaper while the script was running.

See post #96
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Old 11-30-2020, 05:51 PM   #85
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There is a lot of distance still to be covered, but the first small step has been done...



Time to go to bed..
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Old 12-01-2020, 01:37 AM   #86
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Very promising !! Well done !

In davinci and prpro selected items dont move, to allow filling gaps between items using ripple if needed.
But The behavior your propose (all items ripple after the first selected one) do makes sense too !

I even wonder if it is not somehow better... I guess this kind of usage case would need working on a real project.
This is a new editing paradigm !

(if needed, maybe just a companion script to toggle between two mode for this script could be considered at some point ? Meanwhile keep with this behavior I think :P)

Sleep well !
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:08 AM   #87
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Great start; thank you, thank you, thank you :-)

@X-Raym, for me the behaviour below looks very logical. The Green items' contents stay in time-sync with each other, whilst the length of the selected one changes.

As I don't really do any video editing apart from very simple stuff, I don't really understand the need for the other logic. If you want to fill a gap between two items by dragging the edge, don't Ripple! But I'm sure DaVR/PrPro users might appreciate the same behaviour they're used to.

Anyway, this is such amazing progress.
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:36 AM   #88
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@andyp64
Quote:
If you want to fill a gap between two items by dragging the edge, don't Ripple!
I agree on this, I'll have to keep an eye open on my next video editing an see if I ever encounter this particular case :P
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:08 AM   #89
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@andyp64
What did I do to deserve promoting by 40? :-)
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:37 AM   #90
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@andyp64

I'm just feeling generous :P
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:43 AM   #91
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What did I do to deserve promoting by 40? :-)
Haha!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCTunqv1Xt4
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:44 AM   #92
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@andyp64

I'm just feeling generous :P
Lol
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Old 12-01-2020, 04:59 AM   #93
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Sadly if it's age we're referring to, I'm considerably closer to 64 than 24 :-D
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:58 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
Sadly if it's age we're referring to, I'm considerably closer to 64 than 24 :-D
I am heading towards midway


Back to the script...

Unfortunately, I will have to alter (hopefully not re-design completely) the envelope/AI movement code in order to support the editing behavior that I chose to implement (the one we were discussing). This may be a bit tricky..
The good news is that when I implement the new envelope/AI support, the old restriction* from version 2411-2200 will be lifted.

I have to fix a couple of issues with left edge editing in All Tracks mode too...


Just to make sure I don't forget anything in my plans, is there anything else missing for Ripple All Tracks support besides these? :
- Envelopes for Master Track (Volume, Pan, Width, Volume (Pre-FX), Pan (Pre-FX), Width (Pre-FX), Trim Volume, Playrate, Tempo map)
- Markers/Regions

PS. The restriction was: "If move envelopes with items is enabled, then only first selected item on each track stays selected, otherwise it would complicate things a lot with envelopes"
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:59 PM   #95
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There is also tempo markers, but they should count as envelope point I guess. Though I'm affraid it can create weird stuffs if partial measure etc aren't done with precaution. This would require experimentation for sure.
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Old 12-02-2020, 09:06 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post
There is also tempo markers, but they should count as envelope point I guess. Though I'm affraid it can create weird stuffs if partial measure etc aren't done with precaution. This would require experimentation for sure.
Tempo markers I think will count as envelope points.. We 'll see when the time comes

A small update: I have spent hours to find a solution with the multiple undo points created automatically by Reaper. With the APIs we have available it is not possible. I have even filed a Feature Request.. But then, I thought that if I can't untie the Gordian knot, I can cut it
So, I found a way to trick Reaper*. Only one undo point is created now The only thing that is not perfect is that the name of the last undo point that appears on Reaper window's title bar will be "Resize media items" (which is the name of the native undo point that would be created). But inside the Undo History it will appear as "Left edge ripple resize" or "Right edge ripple resize", which are the undo point names I 've given.. Ofcourse, if I had named my undo points as "Resize media items", then you would not understand anything. :P

* : The requirement for it to work is that no other script is intercepting 'WM_LBUTTONUP' messages in the Arrange view window.
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Old 12-02-2020, 10:05 AM   #97
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And I am back again for a little design discussion.. As you have seen the way I have implemented left edge editing is by following Reaper's native paradigm which is Ripple from the right side only (Sadie, for example, as I have seen supports from the Left, from the Right and from Both sides). Reaper, always moves items that are on the right side of the mouse cursor.


For this reason, in my script, if one edits the left edge of an item, the item will keep its position and the ones on its right will move accordingly.


But what should happen in Ripple All Tracks mode?
See the following pic:



On top is our starting point. I am going to trim the left edge of the selected item by one measure.


If I stay faithful to the logic I have chosen then the result is going to be Behavior 1. (Of course the example I give in the picture is an extreme one, which would rarely happen)
Another thing I could do would be to automatically select only the concurrent items, so that the trim is applied to all of them, which is Behavior 2.


What do you think?
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Old 12-02-2020, 10:21 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
Dragging the left edge will Ripple all items whose start time is equal to or later than the <start time of the fade in of the item whose edge is dragged AT THE START OF THE MOVEMENT>
If I follow this suggestion then with Behavior 1, for example, we would end up with this:


Which would break the rule that "everything stays in sync"
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Old 12-02-2020, 10:27 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post
Actually there is two different ways to handle left
  • ir could move previous item back in time
  • or it move item content and item item RIGHT edge (this is similiar to the Propagate tool in Premiere Pro, very common in video editing software)

I have followed this path.
@X-Raym: does Premiere Pro have a Ripple All Track equivalent mode? And if yes, what does it do in the situation I describe above?
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Old 12-02-2020, 11:20 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by amagalma View Post
If I follow this suggestion then with Behavior 1, for example, we would end up with this:


Which would break the rule that "everything stays in sync"
Definitely Behaviour 1 is the desired outcome. Selecting Items which just happen to be concurrent could cause all sorts of problems, I think.

Re: the example above, I'm confused. Those items look like they start at the same point, so why are you saying it starts earlier and therefore won't Ripple? Note, it's the fact that it starts at the same point that the edge being moved STARTS, not where it is when you drop it, that counts.
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Old 12-02-2020, 11:24 AM   #101
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@X-Raym: does Premiere Pro have a Ripple All Track equivalent mode?
TO be clear, ripple all tracks is THE ONLY mode provided by video editing software !
That's why ripple all tracks is that important. :P


You can see on the gif that the item at the last tracks also moved.


Behavior 1 is the expected behavior. Only selected items should be shrink, the rest should move.
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Old 12-02-2020, 12:40 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
Re: the example above, I'm confused. Those items look like they start at the same point, so why are you saying it starts earlier and therefore won't Ripple? Note, it's the fact that it starts at the same point that the edge being moved STARTS, not where it is when you drop it, that counts.

This was the starting point:



Originally Posted by andyp24
Dragging the left edge will Ripple all items whose start time is equal to or later than the <start time of the fade in of the item whose edge is dragged AT THE START OF THE MOVEMENT>

I guess you meant "earlier" not "later"
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Old 12-02-2020, 12:43 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post
You can see on the gif that the item at the last tracks also moved.

Behavior 1 is the expected behavior. Only selected items should be shrink, the rest should move.

Argh, I didn't notice! I need new glasses! Sorry
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Old 12-02-2020, 01:38 PM   #104
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Since, I have to re-work my envelope/AI support, which is the biggest part of the code..

Maybe, before I go on with that, I will ask you:

Do you like the current left edge implementation as it is?

Or do you prefer this?:

Take into account, that items cannot move past the project start. Their starting position will stop there.. But I can correct the position of all items (move them all to the right) after the mouse button has been released (like it was happening with the current implementation)

Changing the implementation, means two things:
- more work for me (I'll have to re-write from scratch all the left-edge code for envelopes/AI)
- it will take more time

Would more people be interested in the script if it worked this way or the other?
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Old 12-02-2020, 02:39 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by amagalma View Post
This was the starting point:



Originally Posted by andyp24
Dragging the left edge will Ripple all items whose start time is equal to or later than the <start time of the fade in of the item whose edge is dragged AT THE START OF THE MOVEMENT>

I guess you meant "earlier" not "later"
Where you've written "start time of the fade in", that's the end of the fade in! For the left edge, it's the same as the start of the item itself! (For the right edge, it's earlier by the length of the fade)
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Old 12-02-2020, 02:43 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by amagalma View Post
Since, I have to re-work my envelope/AI support, which is the biggest part of the code..

Maybe, before I go on with that, I will ask you:

Do you like the current left edge implementation as it is?

Or do you prefer this?:

Take into account, that items cannot move past the project start. Their starting position will stop there.. But I can correct the position of all items (move them all to the right) after the mouse button has been released (like it was happening with the current implementation)

Changing the implementation, means two things:
- more work for me (I'll have to re-write from scratch all the left-edge code for envelopes/AI)
- it will take more time

Would more people be interested in the script if it worked this way or the other?
How are you doing these videos???? ��

For me, the new behaviour here is more like what SADIE users are familiar with, so might be a bit preferable. But I would guess SADIE users are massively outnumbered by users of video editing software, and it's really not a big deal to have it work that way either.

Much as I like the logic and visual effect of Ripple Left, I'm not sure it's worth a lot of extra work for you.
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Old 12-02-2020, 03:15 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amagalma View Post
Since, I have to re-work my envelope/AI support, which is the biggest part of the code..

Maybe, before I go on with that, I will ask you:

Do you like the current left edge implementation as it is?

Or do you prefer this?:

Take into account, that items cannot move past the project start. Their starting position will stop there.. But I can correct the position of all items (move them all to the right) after the mouse button has been released (like it was happening with the current implementation)

Changing the implementation, means two things:
- more work for me (I'll have to re-write from scratch all the left-edge code for envelopes/AI)
- it will take more time

Would more people be interested in the script if it worked this way or the other?
You've made leaps and bounds on this and I think this is going to improve workflows for a lot of people. The Ripple All function looks brilliant. Well done on it all!

I love the look of that left edge edit style, although like andy.p24 said, not sure if it's worth all the extra work for you.

I think it may be a more intuitive behaviour and for the start of the project problem, I feel like it would be logical for all items to simply stop moving if one runs into the start of the project. There are other ways to insert more space manually if need be.

What do people think of this idea?
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Old 12-02-2020, 03:26 PM   #108
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IF you decide to go down the Ripple Left route, Amagalma, I also feel that if any Rippled item (or the edge you're dragging) hits Zero time, EVERYTHING should stop - including the possibility of dragging the edge any further. I guess that might be difficult to achieve though, since dragging the actual edge is a native Reaper action and you may not be able to control stopping it.

The problem with letting items go "back in time" and then Rippling everything to the right afterwards is that if I'm working on one particular edit, I don't want it to disappear out of sight at the end of an action. I guess if you can follow the move of all the items with the cursor, mouse pointer and screen view, it's not a problem but I don't know if that's easy or not.

Hope this makes sense.
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Old 12-02-2020, 04:38 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amagalma View Post
Since, I have to re-work my envelope/AI support, which is the biggest part of the code..

Maybe, before I go on with that, I will ask you:

Do you like the current left edge implementation as it is?

Or do you prefer this?:

Take into account, that items cannot move past the project start. Their starting position will stop there.. But I can correct the position of all items (move them all to the right) after the mouse button has been released (like it was happening with the current implementation)

Changing the implementation, means two things:
- more work for me (I'll have to re-write from scratch all the left-edge code for envelopes/AI)
- it will take more time

Would more people be interested in the script if it worked this way or the other?

for me the current left edge ripple behavior seems more logical.
for those with SADIE experience, what would be the advantage of the new implementation ?
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Old 12-03-2020, 01:43 AM   #110
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Hi ktm

For the most part, it doesn't make a lot of difference, since the end result on the timeline is the same apart from everything shifiting to the right including the item you're working on.

But the main advantages I can think of are:

1) If you move the right edge of an item, the item stays where it is and simply grows or shrinks "in place". Other items follow according to the Ripple state. To my mind, there's an intuitive logic to exactly the same thing happening when you move the left edge... the item you are editing does not move, but others do. As with all things "intuitive" though, what makes perfect sense to my brain may not feel so natural to others (particularly if they're familiar with a different way of working)

2) A more practical one... in Amagalma's examples here, the Grid is on and the edge moves are snapping to those boundaries, so you can effectively "work blind". In my work (speech based, mainly) or acoustic music not aligned to a grid, the edits are done to a large degree visually ie when you roll out an edge to uncover hidden audio, you use the waveform display to see where the particular word or musical beat is which you want to drop the edge at to make the edit (usually crossfaded) work. When moving the right edge, assuming there is another item either right up against it or crossfaded with it, that next item will Ripple out of the way as you move the edge. This means that you can always see the waveforms both at the Out point of the item you're editing, and the In point of the next item, so you can easily visually judge when the words (or beats) line up correctly.

With the "new" Ripple Left functionality being discussed, the same thing happens: If I edit the Left edge of an item back in time, I am exposing hidden audio and need to see the waveforms in order to decide where to let go and drop the edge, and with a genuine Ripple Left I can do because the previous item(s) Ripple out of the way in real time. However, if the preceding item (again, immediately next to or crossfaded with the edge I'm moving) does not "get out of the way" (ie the DaVinci Resolve scenario), I will be trying to make this judgement when I can't see the waveform so clearly because it is now on top of the previous item.

I've already discussed with Amagalma a partial solution to this, in that the script could temporarily set FIPM/lanes on, and display the two items in different lanes, so that at least the waveform of the item I'm editing is occupying "free space" with nothing underneath it to complicate the visual info. However, even doing this means that I cannot "line up" the word or beat in the two adjacent items so easily, since they won't actually align correctly until I let go of the edge and the edited item jumps to its new position.

It's a small thing, and possible to work around of course, but over the course of a day's work where I may be doing many hundreds, if not thousands, of small edit adjustments, every tiny improvement making those edits easier adds up to a significant difference.
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Old 12-03-2020, 02:22 AM   #111
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, andyp24!

I think the current implementation with the temporary FIP mode is perfect. Considering most of the time i work along a timeline, i would prefer everything left from the edit point to stay in place.
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Old 12-03-2020, 03:34 AM   #112
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Quote:
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, andyp24!

I think the current implementation with the temporary FIP mode is perfect. Considering most of the time i work along a timeline, i would prefer everything left from the edit point to stay in place.
Well, it's not PERFECT, as described above... ;-) It's an acceptable workaround.

Do consider though, that whichever method Amagalma decides to adopt, the effect on the timeline is EXACTLY THE SAME, apart from 1) how it looks visually as you drag the edge, 2) any restrictions imposed by the "don't move items before zero" rule and 3) that with the first method (Resolve-style) everything on the timeline will end up a little further to the right than with the SADiE-style method. The relative position of all the items is not affected by this decision, so it's not like you'd have to go back to points earlier on the timeline after a SADiE-style Ripple to correct things any more than you would with the Resolve-style.
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Old 12-03-2020, 04:26 AM   #113
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For me, the left edge behavior seens in last screenshots isn't expected, I don't see real cases for moving all items to the left whole extending one item.

I prefer when first item extended stay at its initial position and that its content is moved, this is more logical to me and would fit both dialog editing and video type of projects (as it is like that in video editors).


(again, there could be different modes if needed)
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Old 12-03-2020, 04:37 AM   #114
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As I said earlier, I think what feels logical to each of us probably depends a bit on our natural inclination (how our brain's spatial processing works) and a lot on what we've got used to with previous software.

I can live with either method, as the end result is almost indistinguishable. It will involve a bit more "re-learning" on my part to work in the "video edit" way, but it'll still be a great improvement on not having any Edge Ripple features at all.

I think for the sake of Amagalma's sanity, let's not suggest more than one mode he has to write into the code and support!
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Old 12-03-2020, 06:36 AM   #115
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For sure you are totally right that expectations are based on our habits and considerations !



Quote:
"video edit" way

Though, I have edits hours and hours of audio fiction dialog and tutorials/podcast style stuffs and I want to highlight that this isn't just a video edit mode.


In fact, it matches the way we elaborate rythm in such projects: you start from the start, and you put dialog lines one after the other. Starting from the opposite direction and expecting things to move left would be unpractical.



And sometimes, you realize that you need a bit more breath at the start of a sentance, so you move item right and extend its edges back left.
This is where the ripple edge with "keep items position but shift content" comes useful.
No just for video :P
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Old 12-03-2020, 06:47 AM   #116
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I accept that, X-Raym, but having worked for 25 years on SADiE, making thousands of hours of radio drama, features and docs, the Ripple Left feature is perfectly natural and useful!

I only refer to the other way as "video edit" because the screenshots you provided are from DaVR and you said PrPro works the same. Of course it will work for audio only, that's why I want this Edge Ripple feature whichever way Amagalma can make it work best! But to suggest that the Ripple Left feature wouldn't be as good as the "video edit" way only shows that you haven't tried it 😁

It has the one distinct advantage that I described earlier of always being able to see the waveform clearly. It has the disadvantage of the "zero time" issue. Other than that, I can't say, as I've not worked enough with those video editors to get fluent.
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Old 12-03-2020, 10:51 AM   #117
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I can't support both modes.. I mean, I could and would do it if the script was making me enough money for the effort, which it doesn't.. so I can't do it.. I have spent already too much time on this.. But since I started it, I 'll finish it and make it as good as possible!

There is the option of a third hybrid mode. I explain:

There could be a user preference inside the script (for example: left_edge_maintains_position = true/false) to set if the user wishes the item whose left edge is being dragged to keep its starting position (this would make the items on the right of it to ripple to the right, as in the older behavior) or not (which would make the items on the left to ripple to the left, as in the new behavior).


While the user is dragging the left edge, what s/he sees is the new behavior (items on the left ripple to the left). When s/he releases the mouse button:
if left_edge_maintains_position is true, then all the items move so the end result is 100% the same as the old left edge behavior,
if left_edge_maintains_position is false, then items stay where they ended to be while dragging, which is the new left edge behavior.


Would such a mode keep everyone happy?

PS. I myself prefer the hybrid version, as I do like to see the items moving when left dragging, and I like that the items ripple on the right side (so the item whose left edge is dragged maintains position). This is my personal preference, and I would do it this way if I was making the script only for my personal use. But if the hybrid mode made everyone unhappy, rather than happy, I 'll keep the current implementation.
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Old 12-03-2020, 11:26 AM   #118
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@amagalma
If I understand well, what you call third mode is just a way to switch between mode 1 and 2 ? Or is it a totally new different behavior ? We may need screenshots then haha :P

In any case, if you have Modes, just write it as ExtState and have companion script to toggle the value. It will far more efficient as it will allows user to have mode visible on toolbar etc. No script mode or template to host the variable needed.
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Old 12-03-2020, 11:30 AM   #119
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@andyp24
your deep experience in the field is valuable feedbacks :P This 0 time issue seems weird to me but as you say maybe it is a question of state of mind, different workflow and models. Maybe if 0 is touched then offset all on the right ?
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Old 12-03-2020, 12:14 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Raym View Post
@amagalma
If I understand well, what you call third mode is just a way to switch between mode 1 and 2 ? Or is it a totally new different behavior ? We may need screenshots then haha :P
No, it is a new mode! While you drag you always see the new behavior (items to the left move). When you release the mouse, you see the result of the behavior that you have chosen in the script. Best of both worlds. (This will make the auto Free Item Position Mode when left dragging redundant, as you will always be able to clearly see what is happening.)

Quote:
In any case, if you have Modes, just write it as ExtState and have companion script to toggle the value. It will far more efficient as it will allows user to have mode visible on toolbar etc. No script mode or template to host the variable needed.
Yes, can be done easily.. But I don't think that anyone is going to be playing all the time with this. People who are used to, or like one behavior over the other will always prefer to stick to their liking.
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