Old 02-05-2019, 02:54 PM   #1
shrineoftheserpent
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Default Anyone using REALINSERT?

I have a ton of hardware. Racks, 500 modules etc that I want to use in reaper. I know I can use my sends and returns on my 18i20 to do this with Realinsert. Anyone doing this and is it worth the trouble? I like my hardware way more than plugins. I have two Pultec EQ's Im dying to use on drums and mix bus.
How do you guys deal with latency? I know you can "ping" the signal. How well does this work?
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:29 PM   #2
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Works great for me. After putting reainsert on the track that I'm processing I generally send this track pre fader to another track (that's not in the master mix) and print it by recording the track output with the fader set to zero.
I have a couple of scripts that will swap in/out the print and mute the original copying its level and pan settings across. Also one for creating the print track and send to it with the master mix off etc.
One thing to get used to is seeing your rack gear levels appearing out of time visually while reaper makes the compensating delay. Sounds great though.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:31 PM   #3
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I usually don't bother using ReaInsert - It might be a symptom of having an unstable DAW, but every time I do it I need to ping latency again.

I do output one or more tracks to hardware, then re-record them into new tracks, but only occasionally. When I do, I simply slide the recorded stuff to align with the original stuff.

I don't have much analog outboard gear any more
- I bounce bass and some vocals through my Gates Level Devil (that thing is magic)
- I bounce 4 stems at a time through my Teac 3340s R2R; into the record head, and back off the reproduce head
- Once in a while I bounce something through my MXR Analog Delay, when I want that messed up bucket-brigade echo sound.

It might be different if I had a bunch of outboard effects, but I dumped most of them years ago.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:34 PM   #4
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doing it all the time over here, integrating 500 series modules and rack units. Topic and its caveats (latency issues) have been discussed in various threads, for example in this one recently: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....61#post2087461

Have fun!

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Old 02-05-2019, 04:19 PM   #5
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works for me in all the right ways

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Old 02-05-2019, 04:56 PM   #6
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nope..
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Old 02-06-2019, 01:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrineoftheserpent View Post
I have a ton of hardware.
Of course. Works great. If there is no such possibilities in Reaper I have to find another DAW. Basically either ReaInsert or sends do the job

Sincerely
Tomek
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Old 02-06-2019, 01:25 AM   #8
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I have now ditched any thought of using my two outboard effects units. The latency is not only high, but is inconsistent.

I have also tried Cakewalk (by BandLab) and it is just as bad.

Of course, it could be just my system, but I can't afford to throw money at it right now to sort it out.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synkrotron View Post
I have now ditched any thought of using my two outboard effects units. The latency is not only high, but is inconsistent.

I have also tried Cakewalk (by BandLab) and it is just as bad.

Of course, it could be just my system, but I can't afford to throw money at it right now to sort it out.
please read through this thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....61#post2087461.

Maybe you will have to do some latency testing and finally you will be able to manually compensate for the actual latency of your interface instead of relying on the automatic process.

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Old 02-06-2019, 07:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
please read through this thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....61#post2087461.

Maybe you will have to do some latency testing and finally you will be able to manually compensate for the actual latency of your interface instead of relying on the automatic process.

.
Thanks, I will have a look at that. Not sure how I would deal with inconsistent latency though.

When funds allow I may look into replacing some of my gear and going back to a desktop (a backward step in my opinion).

cheers

andy
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synkrotron View Post
... Not sure how I would deal with inconsistent latency though.
...
That's odd. There must be a wrong setting somewhere. Latency should be stable and predictable for a given environment. What audio interface are you using? What operating system? How can you determin that latency is inconsistent?

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Old 02-06-2019, 04:17 PM   #12
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@ king bily:
Lots of folks including myself will be happy to help you solving your problems, bily, but this thread is about using ReaInsert. Please create a new thread for your issue and helping people will soon chime in

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Old 02-06-2019, 10:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
That's odd. There must be a wrong setting somewhere. Latency should be stable and predictable for a given environment. What audio interface are you using? What operating system? How can you determine that latency is inconsistent?

.
Hiya SonicAxiom, thanks for your response.

I suppose I should post a separate topic here, and may do in the next couple of days. In fact, I did start a post about my ongoing synchronising issues here:-

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=216694

But it got no response at the time and I couldn't be bothered bumping it back to the top. To be fair, it wasn't a great post and was more of a reminder to me to come back and check other posts, which I linked in there. I may just resurrect that one instead.

I am currently trying out Cakewalk (by BandLab) as I was already using SONAR when Gibson got rid of it. And the only reason for that is I have struggled, so far, to be able to apply negative timing offsets in REAPER.

I need to finish off my experiment with Cakewalk and then jump back into REAPER. Cakewalk is struggling a little bit with the odd pop and crackle and my test project isn't really all that big. Once I am back with REAPER I will come back here and check out more posts on this topic.

cheers, and thanks again,

andy
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:54 AM   #14
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@SonicAxiom - You thought that quoting the entire long rambling irrelevant post before asking them to start a new thread was somehow helping the flow of this one?!?
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
@SonicAxiom - You thought that quoting the entire long rambling irrelevant post before asking them to start a new thread was somehow helping the flow of this one?!?
absolutely don't know what you're talking about


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Old 02-07-2019, 10:14 AM   #16
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Yup reinsert everywhere and for all the things!

All my outboard is hard patched to the patchbay and normalled to various interfaces. I've got presets for all the devices and it's really clean as reinsert passes midi too, so for the reverbs etc they also have an instance of reacontrolMIDI so that I can select and recall patches.

It's pretty good most of the time, but every now and again it jumps from it's regular latency to some massive number like '16248' (as in everything goes squiff, I re-ping the inserts and they jump up in latency. Often a restart will then set it back to a normal place).

To make life a bit easier there's this handy little script: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...postcount=1715 which opens all instances of reinsert so I can go through and run the pings (something I'll tend to do if I'm about to put a mix down or something to make sure it's all ok - generally this is accompanied with some faffing with reverbs to ensure they are properly bypassed before pinging, so that any pre-delay on the patch doesn't affect the measurement).

My only big issue now is how to keep track of recalls on all my non-midi analogue gear!
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:52 PM   #17
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So, how often are you supposed to ping ReaInsert?

Every time I ping it I get a different samples value, sometimes very different each time.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:36 AM   #18
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What's on the ping path? A spring? It's not good to have ring ding on the ping...

Seriously though I've read somewhere that FireWire interfaces can produce inconsistent latency with their buffers. I've not had that problem personally even though mine is firewire
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:08 AM   #19
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Hiya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triode View Post
What's on the ping path? A spring? It's not good to have ring ding on the ping...

Seriously though I've read somewhere that FireWire interfaces can produce inconsistent latency with their buffers. I've not had that problem personally even though mine is firewire
I'm on USB.

Full setup here:-

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...29&postcount=4

Does it matter where the ping is going to? I mean, if it is some sort of an effect, am I best bypassing that effect in the hardware, just in case?

I guess I should try that...
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synkrotron View Post
Does it matter where the ping is going to? I mean, if it is some sort of an effect, am I best bypassing that effect in the hardware, just in case?
Definitely bypass the effect you're sending to
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triode View Post
Definitely bypass the effect you're sending to
Okay, I'll give that a try and report back
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:33 AM   #22
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Well, blow me down with a feather, and other expletives...

I bypassed the effects in the HX Effects unit and now it reports just 65 samples in the Additional Delay Compensation text box.

Mmmmmm... I'm wondering if this is what is causing my other woes...

More testing required...

(Sorry about all the ellipses, a bad habit of mine...)




Thanks
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:59 AM   #23
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I ping when setting up and when I hear things going arwy.

There's an early setup thing you can do too. (can't remember if I saw this here or in a Kenny G vid)

Do a straight loopback test, i.e. just patch the output to the input and ping it (maybe do it a couple of times until it settles) the result you get is your converter latency. Then in options / preferences go to audio / recording and put the number you got (in samples) in to the input manual offset box.

Now any properly zero latency hardware you've got (compressors, eq) should ping at 0 samples (because the converter latency is already taken in to account)- it's not crucial but it does help keep things tidy.

The other point is that, yes, you need to bypass stuff when pinging, especially reverbs and anything that has an A/D converter in it (as that converter will have some latency that needs compensating for) but you don't want to also factor in to the offset any pre-delay that might be part of the patch, so dry out only for pinging.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
I usually don't bother using ReaInsert - It might be a symptom of having an unstable DAW, but every time I do it I need to ping latency again.

I do output one or more tracks to hardware, then re-record them into new tracks, but only occasionally. When I do, I simply slide the recorded stuff to align with the original stuff.
Yeah - I can't deal with a possible changing latency target - so I do what Philbo does.

Record and align, photograph the hardware settings if needs be, and never have to worry about possible multiple hardware latency issues - the bigger the session, the more can possibly go wrong.

I sorta like recording outboard - it is old school like printing FX/EQ to tape, and committing to choices.

Working this way I know that my hardware returns are ALWAYS phase accurate.
For example: a snare drum within a drum kit must be phase accurate.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:39 PM   #25
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It makes device latency measuring a snap. I don't have any outboard gear so that's all I use it for.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rothchild View Post
I ping when setting up and when I hear things going arwy.

There's an early setup thing you can do too. (can't remember if I saw this here or in a Kenny G vid)

Do a straight loopback test, i.e. just patch the output to the input and ping it (maybe do it a couple of times until it settles) the result you get is your converter latency. Then in options / preferences go to audio / recording and put the number you got (in samples) in to the input manual offset box.

Now any properly zero latency hardware you've got (compressors, eq) should ping at 0 samples (because the converter latency is already taken in to account)- it's not crucial but it does help keep things tidy.

The other point is that, yes, you need to bypass stuff when pinging, especially reverbs and anything that has an A/D converter in it (as that converter will have some latency that needs compensating for) but you don't want to also factor in to the offset any pre-delay that might be part of the patch, so dry out only for pinging.
Thanks rothchild, I will take that on board

cheers

andy
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