Old 07-25-2018, 10:24 PM   #1
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Default Advice on setting my Master Bus - who does what?

I'm currently mixing a song that starts with only one instrument: acoustic guitar. The song builds up and eventually has more instruments and more power. No drums, but a native tamtam (thus some transient spikes going on throughout the song that need to be heard).

The thing is this: I only slightly EQ'd and compressed the acoustic to keep it sounding more natural. But once the mix is more or less done and I turn my attention to the Master Bus I'm having some issues: technical, sound, and philosophical.

It is common practice to put compression on the Master Bus to serve as "glue". It is also common practice to slap on a limiter to increase the loudness (with a ceiling to catch peaks above 0db). I don't need to make the song super loud, but because it is not going to be Mastered by a pro I feel like I need to do something...

But when I add a compressor and limiter the acoustic guitar loses the sonic characteristic I worked so hard to capture in my mix. Same goes for the vocals. Both suffer from the additional compression and limiter. I hate when this happens.

I could simply NOT have any effects on the Master Bus. But then gone are the glue and loudness. I can use reverb to glue, but it doesn't seem to be enough (I don't want too much reverb...). I could crank the fader to make the song louder and then simply CLIP some peaks. Who does that?

I could also MIX in the Master Bus compressor and limiter? This means that I'm not going to compress the guitar and the vocal so much in the mix (maybe only half of what I'm doing) and let the Master Bus finish the job. Who does that?

I could automate the threshold of the Master Bus effect so they don't impact the acoustic guitar at the start of the song and work harder near the end? Am I setting myself up for disaster?

I don't know... I feel like something is missing --- I'm missing some piece of information.

Again, this is a song that is acoustic and soft in the beginning and develops into power.

Any suggestions?
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:37 PM   #2
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Yes those are common techniques, though easy to overdo and difficult to master (heheh, a pun ).

A better technique for you would be to make a parallel compression buss. The idea is that you send the signals you want to glue to that bus track, compress there (as much as you like) and then bring up the buss track underneath your original tracks. You get the glue effect you want, but the original transients are unaffected.

If you don't know what I mean by buss, it's just another track that gets its input from one or more other tracks. You can actually left-drag from one routing button to another to achieve this easily.

It's also a good idea to do this with reverb. Just send a little bit from each track and it will help them all sound more cohesive (like they're in the same room), but the reverb doesn't even need to be that noticeable in order to work.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:34 PM   #3
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I think it's a mistake to call these technics common place, in doing so you're almost painting yourself
into a corner right off the bat. I'll admit I end up with a limiter in my Master-FX track 95% of the time,
but that's because they work well with the songs I'm working with.

Personally I almost never use a compressor on the Master FX, I only use compressors on the tracks that need
them. I might add that a limiter is also compressing only in a different way which can be very pleasing.

It appears your acoustic guitar is the main instrument and I think that should be your biggest concern, make
it sound as good as you can, then don't put it through any FX that will diminish it.

Don't fall into a syndrome of doing something simply because it's always done, get rid of the rules or common
technics and only apply things as they are needed.

Reaper's routing is the greatest and there are so many ways to be creative to make your mix easier and better.
foxAsteria mentioned parallel compression, that's a very useful way to compress things.
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Old 07-27-2018, 08:25 PM   #4
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Yeah I think I need to focus on getting the best acoustic guitar sound and deal with the rest in the mix, not the Master bus. Maybe it won't need anything or only act when things start to pile up.
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:39 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Yeah I think I need to focus on getting the best acoustic guitar sound and deal with the rest in the mix, not the Master bus. Maybe it won't need anything or only act when things start to pile up.
Sounds good, it's also possible you are simply overdoing them because we tend to expect them to be doing something immediately noticable. I've often had a compressor which eventually hits another compressor which eventually hits a limiter but...

1. Any one of them may only be shaving .5 to 1 dB.
2. They don't have to be acting all the time but just once in awhile during the loud parts and even then not that much.

The right amount of compression is often similar to the right amount of reverb, you don't really hear it but it makes a difference. It's also possible to not even need it.
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:05 AM   #6
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Sounds good, it's also possible you are simply overdoing them because we tend to expect them to be doing something immediately noticable. I've often had a compressor which eventually hits another compressor which eventually hits a limiter but...

1. Any one of them may only be shaving .5 to 1 dB.
2. They don't have to be acting all the time but just once in awhile during the loud parts and even then not that much.

The right amount of compression is often similar to the right amount of reverb, you don't really hear it but it makes a difference. It's also possible to not even need it.

Hey thanks.

Funny thing that is - the art of mixing: Reverb you can't really hear, compression you can't really hear, saturation you can't really hear, etc. But all these make the difference?!

I love it.
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Hey thanks.

Funny thing that is - the art of mixing: Reverb you can't really hear, compression you can't really hear, saturation you can't really hear, etc. But all these make the difference?!

I love it.
They do. They all add up to something better than without them but most beginners expect night and day differences to an extent per plugin so they hyper focus and overdo it. Differences that matter don't have to come in amazing holy shit did you hear that packages LOL - I'm exaggerating a little to help paint the mental picture.

So you have a limiter, it pulls a peak down a couple dB THREE times in a 4 minute song, a beginner isn't usually thinking of it that way so they 'don't hear a difference' because they don't even know what difference they are trying to make. We can probably think of hundreds of examples where "FX" are used in important ways that make the song sound better that are not required to affect the entire song at all times and so on.
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:53 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Don't fall into a syndrome of doing something simply because it's always done, get rid of the rules or common
technics and only apply things as they are needed.
Wise words right here.

Another option:

Send all tracks EXCEPT the acoustic guitar to a bus with a compressor on it, if you like the "glue" with the rest of the instruments but it's wrecking your acoustic guitar sound.

Automating the threshold on the final bus compressor is also an option.

To be honest, it's only really drums and bass at full whack that tickle my bus comp. I tend to end up with somewhere around -3dB of gain reduction when the bass drum and bass guitar hit on the same beat. Guitar intros would not usually kick off any gain reduction.

Another thing to consider is the ratio, attack and release of your master bus compressor. What values have you got dialled in?
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:56 AM   #9
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Another thing to consider is the ratio, attack and release of your master bus compressor. What values have you got dialled in?
Well. For this project I've been testing out the Slate Digital FG-X plugin.

I felt inclined to try the SMOOTH MASTER preset, with has:

Compression: Attack 10ms - Release 7ms - Ration 2 - Threshold set to reduce 2 db in the loudest section.

Limiter: 0 Lopunch and 0 Details (i.e. Transients) ; Gain 2 ; Dynamic Perception 2; ITP smooth. Basically the limiter setting are not over emphasizing transients so the song is not coming out as tight and punchy. This portion of the plugin is more or less doing very little. Just a small GAIN in overall volume to compensate for the compression. I set the ceiling to -1.0db.

But... I also put the JS- NP1136 Peak Limiter on the drum bus to catch the loudest peaks BEFORE sending to the Master Bus. If I don't do this the kick drum and snare (sometimes) seem to dominate and hog all the final compression action. I set the JS Peak Limiter so that the drum peaks are more or less on equal footing to the sum peaks of the loudest areas where all the instruments play together. I also find that if I don't tame the kick drum with a Peak Limiter I can't raise the volume high enough for the kick to be heard in the mix; in other words, without a peak limiter the peaks of the kick are way too high and I can't raise the volume sufficiently. I really don' have a clue what I'm doing here --- in my world this seems to work.
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Well. For this project I've been testing out the Slate Digital FG-X plugin.

I felt inclined to try the SMOOTH MASTER preset, with has:

Compression: Attack 10ms - Release 7ms - Ration 2 - Threshold set to reduce 2 db in the loudest section.
You could try a longer attack time, maybe 30ms, and a quicker release, maybe 1-3 ms. This will let it breathe a bit more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Limiter: 0 Lopunch and 0 Details (i.e. Transients) ; Gain 2 ; Dynamic Perception 2; ITP smooth. Basically the limiter setting are not over emphasizing transients so the song is not coming out as tight and punchy. This portion of the plugin is more or less doing very little. Just a small GAIN in overall volume to compensate for the compression. I set the ceiling to -1.0db.
That sounds fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
But... I also put the JS- NP1136 Peak Limiter on the drum bus to catch the loudest peaks BEFORE sending to the Master Bus. If I don't do this the kick drum and snare (sometimes) seem to dominate and hog all the final compression action. I set the JS Peak Limiter so that the drum peaks are more or less on equal footing to the sum peaks of the loudest areas where all the instruments play together. I also find that if I don't tame the kick drum with a Peak Limiter I can't raise the volume high enough for the kick to be heard in the mix; in other words, without a peak limiter the peaks of the kick are way too high and I can't raise the volume sufficiently. I really don' have a clue what I'm doing here --- in my world this seems to work.
Nothing wrong with that!
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:30 PM   #11
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If it sounds good it is good
If it sounds bad it sounds bad

Does the instruments need any treatment?
Vocals usually takes compression and limiting well,
acoustic guitar on the other hand.. yes, can ruin the tone.

Try this one:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=181934
Max pre-comp
(this was at least the remedy for my last production)

Mastering will always include limiting,
but could be down to 0-2db.
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Old 07-30-2018, 07:41 AM   #12
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You might have some extraneous dynamics or rumbles or low mids getting in the way. So you have to turn up the volume for the "meat" of the mix to be focused (extraneous bits be damned). "Finishing" such a mix by squishing it with a compressor or limiter on the master bus gets you crudely there but does damage.

That's a common pattern behind "my mix isn't loud enough" anyway.

Listen on different speakers. Try small speakers at both low and normal volume. Other direction: Try soloing different tracks (especially the guitar) at higher volume on the big speakers and listen for murky elements maybe getting in the way.

I'm pretty addicted to parallel compression tricks myself. Pulling up the bottom as it were instead of squishing down the top can have great effect.

Maybe when the song builds with more instruments you want to hear that guitar part "lighting up the room" more. Like an acoustic naturally might in a somewhat bright room when someone leaned into it. Build reflections like that with delay/verb and see if that works.

And serious props to you for listening and determining that slapping a limiter on the master bus of an unfinished mix is the wrong thing to do! You crossed a large bridge there that many never do.
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Old 07-30-2018, 11:09 AM   #13
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You might have some extraneous dynamics or rumbles or low mids getting in the way.
...

That's a common pattern behind "my mix isn't loud enough" anyway.

Listen on different speakers. Try small speakers at both low and normal volume.

...


And serious props to you for listening and determining that slapping a limiter on the master bus of an unfinished mix is the wrong thing to do! You crossed a large bridge there that many never do.
Thanks. I really enjoy the learning process. I was a research scientist in my former life and think I'm slightly OCD?! LOL ---> Note: in a recent interview Stewart Copeland of the band The Police, mentioned that many great musicians, including himself, are often Asperger -- They don't actually mind having to repeat the same groove over and over and over again ...

Yeah, the guitar does have some resonance building in the low and low-mids. I tried to tame them with a big dynamic-eq cut around 230 HZ and it helped a great deal. This was better than simply cutting with EQ. Also automated the plugin so that it works harder when the vocals and bass kick in. The lows of the guitar are not needed halfway in the song. I've been dabbling with automation of EQ and find it very useful -- at time I have very 'unrealistically' sounding instruments when played in solo, but you can't tell in the mix.

I tried mixing the entire song without compression on the master bus. I managed to get up to -14 LUFS but had to razor blade cut some peaks. -14 LUFS is plenty loud for my taste. I'm still not out the woods, because when I listen to the song on cheap small speakers it sounds very harsh and the vocal are way too loud. I can't seem to get the song to sound good without the low frequencies? Perhaps I should try mixing into the cheap speakers and then go to the better monitors and fine tune?

[EDIT] I found this: Simulate a mix through an Auratone speaker. “You know what Quincy [Jones] calls them? The Truth Speakers! There's no hype with an Auratone.... Probably 80 percent of the mix is done on Auratones, and then I'll have a final listen or two on the big speakers." - Michael Jackson's long time Producer & Engineer, Bruce Swedien.

Here are the free IR that I found:

http://www.1212music.com/simulate-a-...atone-speaker/

I inserted the IR impulse response in the SIR plugin at the very end of the mixing chain and hooooo does it ever knock the bass out! I'm going to mix into this and then see how well the mix does on cheap speakers, ear buds, and then on good speaker. Note: I'm also going to mix in MONO first, then fine tune the stereo field. If this works it will be easier for me to flick this plugin On and Off than have to plug and unplug speakers (yeah I'm not set up properly in my home studio - AKA the desk in my living room).

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Old 08-04-2018, 01:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
They do. They all add up to something better than without them but most beginners expect night and day differences to an extent per plugin so they hyper focus and overdo it. Differences that matter don't have to come in amazing holy shit did you hear that packages LOL - I'm exaggerating a little to help paint the mental picture.

So you have a limiter, it pulls a peak down a couple dB THREE times in a 4 minute song, a beginner isn't usually thinking of it that way so they 'don't hear a difference' because they don't even know what difference they are trying to make. We can probably think of hundreds of examples where "FX" are used in important ways that make the song sound better that are not required to affect the entire song at all times and so on.

this may well be the most usefull bit of advice I've read in two years on various forums as I try to get my head around compression and reverb.

thank you
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Old 08-17-2018, 03:56 PM   #15
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I haven't heard anyone mention anything about saturation, but it's a good way to add some weight to a song for a final mix without breaking the db bank. I'm not sure how that fits into your style of music, but it can also help to glue things together as well.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:22 PM   #16
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I haven't heard anyone mention anything about saturation, but it's a good way to add some weight to a song for a final mix without breaking the db bank. I'm not sure how that fits into your style of music, but it can also help to glue things together as well.
I heard about that strategy.

I tested saturation on various instruments and mixbuses and have found that it works best for instruments that don't naturally produce lots of overtones/harmonics and for mixes that don't have lots of instruments playing at the same time. For example it can enhance a lifeless sounding VSTi keyboard. It can 'dirty' a vocal or bass sound. But, it can mess up real bad an acoustic guitar that already has lots of overtones (especially when I'm trying to tame the overtones).

Sometimes I feel like adding saturation to the Masterbus is like smugging or rubbing a rags over the wet paint of a painting. It fills in some blank/empty gaps with paint (blends the various objects), but make the artwork 'blurry'. This is not always something I'm trying to attain. Good if I have few instruments, not so good if I have many instruments - objects in the paining.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:45 PM   #17
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Hey thanks.

Funny thing that is - the art of mixing: Reverb you can't really hear, compression you can't really hear, saturation you can't really hear, etc. But all these make the difference?!

I love it.
(grin) If you "cant really hear them", you are being WAY too bloody subtle!

Mind you even with 2 compressor foot pedals in my live guitar rig I sometimes find myself going from "nothings happening" to "Bloody hell - I squashed it to death" with what feels like the tiniest tweak.

EDIT: Just to make it totally clear that my tongue was in my cheek when I posted this originally, on the first line!
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:58 AM   #18
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I imagine that "can't really hear reverb, compression, etc" comment was to mean can't hear that as a special fx kind of thing. The reverb on some instrument, for example, would fit with the general ambience of the piece and not stick out like a special fx. You'll hear it plenty well - or more that you'd hear it really obviously if you switched it off. So in other words, you nailed the ambient component that you needed.

Saturation is an important tool. It's not always about 'distortion sound' fx either. Sound can light up a room. Sometimes the reflections are actually distorted. You can get that effect with saturation tricks. But of course you would need to do that per track! You could never put saturation on the master bus and get anything but mad fidelity loss or straight up lo-fi distortion fx. (But if you intentionally want that, go for it!) Just like you can't put an echo delay fx on the master bus to make just the vocal have echoes.

At the end of the day, you need to mix. Nothing on the master bus will do that for you. It would only work against you.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:01 AM   #19
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At the end of the day, you need to mix. Nothing on the master bus will do that for you. It would only work against you.
If you know that you'll want distortion over your whole mix, then better to mix into it than mix blind and have to compensate once you turn it on.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:19 AM   #20
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If you know that you'll want distortion over your whole mix, then better to mix into it than mix blind and have to compensate once you turn it on.
Well, you're not wrong!

There are always exceptions aren't there...

On the other hand, I'd have that distortion box on a sub master track to mix into in that scenario. So I'd be technically mixing into a clean fx free master bus. But now I'm being silly with semantics.

I can't remember what it was but I heard something once where the sound got dirtier and dirtier towards the end of the song and ended in pure saturation. Obviously something over the whole mix. So I'd automate that on that submaster bus of course.
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:03 AM   #21
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Well, you're not wrong!

There are always exceptions aren't there...

On the other hand, I'd have that distortion box on a sub master track to mix into in that scenario. So I'd be technically mixing into a clean fx free master bus. But now I'm being silly with semantics.

I can't remember what it was but I heard something once where the sound got dirtier and dirtier towards the end of the song and ended in pure saturation. Obviously something over the whole mix. So I'd automate that on that submaster bus of course.
I think blending is a better option, personally. You can lose too much articulation and run into lots of sibilance problems if you distort your music too hard.
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:58 AM   #22
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I heard about that strategy.

I tested saturation on various instruments and mixbuses and have found that it works best for instruments that don't naturally produce lots of overtones/harmonics and for mixes that don't have lots of instruments playing at the same time. For example it can enhance a lifeless sounding VSTi keyboard. It can 'dirty' a vocal or bass sound. But, it can mess up real bad an acoustic guitar that already has lots of overtones (especially when I'm trying to tame the overtones).

Sometimes I feel like adding saturation to the Masterbus is like smugging or rubbing a rags over the wet paint of a painting. It fills in some blank/empty gaps with paint (blends the various objects), but make the artwork 'blurry'. This is not always something I'm trying to attain. Good if I have few instruments, not so good if I have many instruments - objects in the paining.
I like the think of saturation as 'salt'....salt/saturate to taste. Some can't stand it, some like to pile it on. Depends on what you're making and who you're making it for.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:42 AM   #23
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I have a few templates I created for various genres and textures for the master bus. I am never ashamed to experiment at the MB but I draw a line at using any process that smears the audio: effects being prime candiates.

Recently, I am experimenting with gentle tape saturation coupled with a clipper at the MB for EDM mixes. Proving top be quite educational.
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