Using VSTi, I hate them...

[vassaux]

Somebody else's issues with Komplete prompted me to start this thread. I'm comfortable with basic MIDI functions, and started in the early days of using it, mostly for playing sound modules from my main controller, layering, etc.

I have to hand it to those of you that live off of VSTi plugins, I've found them to largely be frustrating, complicated, and not very responsive. I've purchased a few collections, but just find them tedious.

I use "Modern Drummer" from NI, I hate the interface(Kontakt), and mapping things is a pain, it's not automatic, and I'm not even sure I've built my template correctly. I've bought Arturia's synth collection (one of them), so many things to choose from, but totally disorganized, unless you would normally list thing s under "S for Synth". Same for the Vacuum Pro Synth. Lots of choices, but nothing to make them fast to use.

I'm more interested in virtual synthesizers than sample-based packages, if that helps.

Any tutorials you've heard of that I should see? I've tried using these as standalone tone generators (in a PC), with Cantabile, and with a DAW, I'm just not enjoying the process. Thanks!

[Gerry P]

I would suggest spending some time at the KVR site, in conjunction with the related YouTube tutorials, and download trial versions from the vendor sites.

[Coachz]

I agree. Nothing like setting up mics and recording. Screwing with memory, buffers, polyphony settings and dealing with glitches and latency are a pain.

The pro though is having a really good sounding horn section or vintage keyboard or drum set. For me FREEZING tracks is the best way. Keeping resources free makes Reaper happy and many vstis tolerable. Then I freeze em with my script.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=221192

[Greg Savage]

I dunno... I've had no issues with VSTis... Install them and they are ready to go, that's my experience at least.

[lunker]

I love 'em!

Never had many problems that reading the manual didn't solve (at least for those that come with manuals).

What do you think is totally disorganized about the Arturia instruments? The controls seem to be in logical places (especially when they emulate hardware synths), and they do what they are supposed to do.

If you meant the collection of presets, yes there are a lot of them -- and the names do not always indicate what the preset will sound like. If you are looking for a particular type of sound, make sure to sort by categories, keywords, and such in the preset manager. And if you find one you like, save it with a better name so that you know what it is next time you're looking for it.

[vassaux]

Originally Posted by lunker

I love 'em!

Never had many problems that reading the manual didn't solve (at least for those that come with manuals).

What do you think is totally disorganized about the Arturia instruments? The controls seem to be in logical places (especially when they emulate hardware synths), and they do what they are supposed to do.

If you meant the collection of presets, yes there are a lot of them -- and the names do not always indicate what the preset will sound like. If you are looking for a particular type of sound, make sure to sort by categories, keywords, and such in the preset manager. And if you find one you like, save it with a better name so that you know what it is next time you're looking for it.

This is a large part of my issue, Lunker. With hundreds of presets, it can take a VERY long time to wade through them all. I didn't get Arturia with the individual instruments, so they're non-programmable. I do hit the "Like" heart to keep track of those I've found, but even that list is getting pretty long. I'm also using an Alesis controller, so all controls need mapped, and with Arturia, they need to be mapped repeatedly, because some things aren't available in some synths.

I guess I believed that there would be a number of standardized settings, and that those things might be pretty regular, but they're not. This is part of why I was trying to switch to them for some live use (my other synths were pretty old, and likely to fail). It looked good on paper, but I'm not happy with the results.

I kind of believe the Jonathan Cain viewpoint of "either play 'em or program 'em, don't try to do both". I play well, and tweaking knobs is not the part I like to do. I understand this makes me a little archaic, hence the reason I'm looking for suggestions on videos/tutorials.

[lunker]

I can see what you mean, but I'm not sure I follow everything you wrote.

When you say you don't have the individual instruments and they aren't programmable, does that mean you only have Analog Lab, and not the full collection?

If so, I definitely understand. I have the full collection, and really have never used Analog Lab. I can see how it should be good for some things, but for my purposes, I load the particular VSTi I want on a track, and then program the sound I am looking for (perhaps starting from a preset as a template, but usually from a blank template).

I thought that the MIDI controls for Analog Lab were supposed to be pretty standard and easy to configure -- but like I said, I have never really used it. But I thought usability was the goal, so that you could configure the MIDI controls once, and then change from one synth to another while playing. (With the caveat that not all synths will have all of the same controls/capabilities.)

If you don't have the individual instruments, then I guess most of my advice will be useless to you. Sorry ...

If you're not really into emulating specific hardware synths, and just want one synth that can do general duty at creating new sounds and general imitation of other synths, there are many to choose from. If you want to stay with Arturia, I can highly recommend their "Pigments" synth -- it is powerful, and pretty easy to learn. There are others to choose from however (Serum, U-he synths, NI Massive, Admiral Quality's Polyana (one of my favorites!), Full Bucket's VSTi https://www.fullbucket.de/music/vst.html, ..., many many more), so do your homework and choose well. Any one of them should let you customize the MIDI controls so that you have consistent control across all the presets.

[Coachz]

From the many vsti keyboards I have tried, i have to say there are way more weird presets than musical mainstream ones. The DX7, wavestation, roland d50 and a few others seem the most musical to me but for example the wavestation has no categorization and the display and intertace sucks. Great sounds though.

[MusoBob]

There is an alternative to complicated frustrating VSTi's you can Collaborate with World Class Session Musicians here

[Nip]

Originally Posted by vassaux

I'm more interested in virtual synthesizers than sample-based packages, if that helps.

Cannot see how one would be preferred, they are both loads of presets to wade through.

If you really like making your own sounds - get an external synth that is made for being creative.

I'm thinking Nordlead 2X or Behringer DM6 - loads of physical knobs for anything you like to experiement with and create "accidents" that you like.

And to sit and play a bit - just a power on button and off you go. No booting of computers and loading software and all.

DM6 even fits nicely on your lap to sit and fiddle with sounds.

And you have a decent master keyboard for computer work as well.

[Icchan]

This is why arranger keyboards and hardware workstation keyboards are still worth their price.

If you're not in it to simulate a real orchestra for Hollywood blockbuster (and you have all the skills necessary for arranging for a full orchestra) or trying to replace bass player for your number 1 hit that's going to sell millions... VSTi isn't really that great at all to replace workstation keyboards with everything you need in easily accessible and ready produced manner.

The price for keyboard workstation is 20% for the hardware and 80% for the library and user interface and that you can trust it.

If someone makes anything that really challenges those workstations with sounds, ease of use, adaptability and stability, they could ask for that library like 1000$ and it doesn't even have to sound that realistic.

I'd buy it.

And many others would as well...

[GordonDavid]

I too have been using VSTi's for well over 3 years, and love them. Cannot afford a hardware synths yet.... However, I do agree that when I got Synth1 VSTi, and with its 10000+ presets, it took me over six months to listen to them all, catalog the ones that I wanted to use regularly, and store the rest. But you will have the same issue with the modern synths. They have presets too. Narrow your presets down to the ones that you want to use and have fun!

[vassaux]

Thank you all for your responses! My main aim was to keep from spending a ton on new hardware synths, I'm a "serious" hobbyist, and thought these might be the way of the future, using a controller and keeping everything in one of the expensive laptops I already own. When I was younger, I had no money, so I used a lot less, and made do in some areas. As I'm much older, I have more disposable income, at least partly because I don't spend it as quickly or carelessly as when I was young.

I was hoping to make at least half my live rig virtual, but I just don't see it working for me. I suppose I should go to a keyboard forum and see what other people are doing that they're happy with, to see if there's more info that I need. I like the concept of Cantabile, but have more to learn about it.

In Reaper world, I am getting used to Kontakt and my drums, but I hate the "one size fits all" nature of Kontakt, I'd rather you could just load a VSTi called "drums", map the outputs, and call it a day. maybe I just need to RRTFM and move on.

Again, thanks!

[Softsynth]

I haven't tried Komplete Kontrol with a NI Keyboard. It looks like that is designed to give you something of the workstation experience but with the performance of VSTs.
NI have their usual summer sale just started.
Have a play with the NI freebie Komplete Kontrol. Personally I don't like the KK software but it might be just the thing for you - if you wanted something closer to a workstation experience.
Designed for any software designed with NKS support.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by vassaux

In Reaper world, I am getting used to Kontakt and my drums, but I hate the "one size fits all" nature of Kontakt, I'd rather you could just load a VSTi called "drums", map the outputs, and call it a day. maybe I just need to RRTFM and move on.

Again, thanks!

You kinda can, if you save the Kontakt track and all its outputs as a track template in REAPER. You only have to do the grunt work once.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Judders

You kinda can, if you save the Kontakt track and all its outputs as a track template in REAPER. You only have to do the grunt work once.

I have created a few of those. Made one up just yesterday that is an East Indian Ensemble with Tampura on the bottom octave, sitar for the next three and tablas on the last octave.

Here's what I've setup and saved as Kontakt track templates so far. These are complete with EQ, compression, Etc.

Kontakt_8-MIDI_8-Stereo.RTrackTemplate
Kontakt_Eastern_Ensemble.RTrackTemplate
Kontakt_Grand_Piano.RTrackTemplate
Kontakt_Guitar_Solo.RTrackTemplate
Kontakt.RTrackTemplate
Kontakt_Strings_Brass.RTrackTemplate
Kontakt_Upright_Piano.RTrackTemplate

[joelsampson]

A Roland Integra-7 may give you all the instruments you will ever need.

[talustalus]

I agree with OP.

VSTi's are clunky af!

Not bad if you're sequencing, but for live play to capture your nuances and without latency, VSTi plugins are the antithesis of this.

I wish I had room in my budget and in my, well, room, to own hardware synths. Instant feedback and response, and better sound.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by talustalus

Not bad if you're sequencing, but for live play to capture your nuances and without latency, VSTi plugins are the antithesis of this.

Happily, there is not (technical) reason for this. In fact most new (digital / virtual analogue) "Hardware" synths internally are computers running software that is similar to what VSTis do. And even with old "Rack" hardware synths (with fully analogue sound creation), you get latency and limited resolution of your playing performance just by the Midi interface to the keyboard/controller.

In fact there are devices like the Roland VPiano that internally uses VSTi-alike software to create the sound, but overcomes that limitation by providing a high class keyboard in the box.

Of course you need a very decent infrastructure software and hardware to have VSTis provide a satisfying playing experience, and regarding the software infrastructure, Reaper is an excellent choice. See the "Live" subforum here for more detailed information.

Regarding latency, Midi via USB and appropriately powerful computer hardware nowadays provides very decent live performance. The VSTis themselves (usually) are not the source of latency problems at all.

Regarding resolution ("nuances") it is very sad that the nuances the Midi standard provides (high resolution CC, high resolution velocity, ...) are not supported by many keyboard/controller/VST suppliers but stick to 7 Bit resolution (of course Reaper has no problem here ). I do use a TEC BBCv2 and Kontakt based sound libraries and indeed am unhappy in this regard.

-Michael

[talustalus]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Happily, there is not (technical) reason for this. In fact most new (digital / virtual analogue) "Hardware" synths internally are computers running software that is similar to what VSTis do. And even with old "Rack" hardware synths (with fully analogue sound creation), you get latency and limited resolution of your playing performance just by the Midi interface to the keyboard/controller.

In fact there are devices like the Roland VPiano that internally uses VSTi-alike software to create the sound, but overcomes that limitation by providing a high class keyboard in the box.

Of course you need a very decent infrastructure software and hardware to have VSTis provide a satisfying playing experience, and regarding the software infrastructure, Reaper is an excellent choice. See the "Live" subforum here for more detailed information.

-Michael

Agreed that it very much relies on the hardware, interface etc. My audio set up is somewhat complicated, I'm also using Reference software (Sonarworks) for monitoring and my templates are quite large so I force myself to work in 2048 buffer size, sequencing where I can and playing anything live outside of the DAW environment. It still records in the correct timebase. To this end, standalone application versions of VSTi's, where available, are a great workaround the latency issue.

[mschnell]

Of course you need to set the buffer size to a value that prevents CPU overload (crackles, ...) . The performance you can get depend on Computer hardware, Computer OS tweaking, DAW software and it's settings, Audio interface and it's driver, ... Please see the "Live" subforum for discussions on that.

To get a feeling if or if not latency is a problem, please calculate the latency introduced by buffer count and size and convert that to a distance using the sample rate and the speed of sound. Then compare this distance to the possible distance between the player and the loudspeaker.

-Michael

[talustalus]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Of course you need to set the buffer size to a value that prevents CPU overload (crackles, ...) . The performance you can get depend on Computer hardware, Computer OS tweaking, DAW software and it's settings, Audio interface and it's driver, ... Please see the "Live" subforum for discussions on that.

To get a feeling if or if not latency is a problem, please calculate the latency introduced by buffer count and size and convert that to a distance using the sample rate and the speed of sound. Then compare this distance to the possible distance between the player and the loudspeaker.

-Michael

I really appreciate guys who go the distance, thinking about every technical aspect of the set up. After all, it's because of people like you that led to enough curiosity that led amazing musical (and other) inventions.
That said, I think I will pass on the calculation you mentioned. I am always just looking for the most practical solution, and don't pay much attention to numbers as opposed to what 'feels' right.

[cutnpaste]

Originally Posted by vassaux

Somebody else's issues with Komplete prompted me to start this thread. I'm comfortable with basic MIDI functions, and started in the early days of using it, mostly for playing sound modules from my main controller, layering, etc.

I have to hand it to those of you that live off of VSTi plugins, I've found them to largely be frustrating, complicated, and not very responsive. I've purchased a few collections, but just find them tedious.

I use "Modern Drummer" from NI, I hate the interface(Kontakt), and mapping things is a pain, it's not automatic, and I'm not even sure I've built my template correctly. I've bought Arturia's synth collection (one of them), so many things to choose from, but totally disorganized, unless you would normally list thing s under "S for Synth". Same for the Vacuum Pro Synth. Lots of choices, but nothing to make them fast to use.

I'm more interested in virtual synthesizers than sample-based packages, if that helps.

Any tutorials you've heard of that I should see? I've tried using these as standalone tone generators (in a PC), with Cantabile, and with a DAW, I'm just not enjoying the process. Thanks!

I don't see how using a vsti is ever equal to a real instrument in the hands of a competent musician.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by cutnpaste

I don't see how using a vsti is ever equal to a real instrument in the hands of a competent musician.

Ha ha, what if that VSTi is a synthesizer!
I would also argue the same now for piano. the difference between a real piano sound and say Pianoteq played on a really good MIDI controller is now so small that most of the public wouldn't actually realise what they were listening to. It won't change the quality of the performance or make a big enough difference to the sound to matter which is being used.

If OTOH you are talking purely of strings instruments recreated via keyboards or programmed in the piano roll then sure, a great musician should be obviously superior.

[MusoBob]

I can do you up a sample if you give me some chords as regions.csv (uploaded or pasted) verse color, chorus color and ending,
pick one from here open in new tab PGmusicRealTracksList2019.txt use ctrl+mouse wheel to fit to page, Give me the tempo you need it at.


If you want a drum sample PGmusicRealDrumsList2019.txt

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by cutnpaste

I don't see how using a vsti is ever equal to a real instrument in the hands of a competent musician.

What exactly is a "real" instrument ?

In fact "real" might be defined as "crafted according to an original design"

This design might be mechanical, electronic, or software.

If you try to do a design that "sounds and feels as alike as possible" as something that already exists "in real", you of course need to accept certain shortcomings.

-Michael.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by cutnpaste

I don't see how using a vsti is ever equal to a real instrument in the hands of a competent musician.

No one will care what the instrument is behind the hands of a competent musician, that's what makes them competent.

[Softsynth]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

No one will care what the instrument is behind the hands of a competent musician, that's what makes them competent.

Indeed, I can obsess about absolute quality of tone in a VSTi instrument then upon hearing a very average instrument in the hands of a brilliant musician makes a nonsense of it all. The quality difference of modelling, samples or whatever becomes minutiae.

[karbomusic]

"Get the check so we can pay and get the hell out of here, I see an electric piano on stage and I refuse to be entertained by anything other than a hand-crafted real grand piano."

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

"Get the check so we can pay and get the hell out of here, I see an electric piano on stage and I refuse to be entertained by anything other than a hand-crafted real grand piano."

Of course amplification will totally destroy the sound of the instrument. Hence the stage is not allowed to be too large

-Michael

[lunker]

Originally Posted by cutnpaste

I don't see how using a vsti is ever equal to a real instrument in the hands of a competent musician.

I seem to remember certain bands saying the same type of thing about synthesizers (many years ago). Yet hardware synthesizers seem to be considered real instruments nowadays. It was actually funny (to me) to see one of the biggest "No synthesizers!" bands of the 70's add synthesizers in the 80's.

If you're old enough you might remember when some people thought that those new-fangled electric guitars would ruin music forever.

Once upon a time, solid-state guitar amps were considered crap compared to tube amps. But after a few generations of kids grew up playing solid-state amps, some people actually prefer that sound over tubes.

Given time and the inevitable improvements in technology, VSTi's will one day be accepted as just another way of making music.

Considering the music people like Rick Wakeman, Keither Emerson, Tony Banks, Chick Corea, Jan Hammer, ... (the list goes on) created with synthesizers, I'm glad to have VSTi synths so that I don't have to mortgage my house to buy a giant modular Moog.

[Glennbo]

I have a fully expanded kit of V-Drums that I use to trigger Superior Drummer 2 in REAPER. I also have a real acoustic kit of Ludwig drums in my studio. I much prefer the real drums, but the VSTi drums are also usable. The first song on my music page was done with real drums and the second one is using Superior Drummer 2 played from V-Drums. So for drums, I prefer real but can also use sampled when needed or when it fits the music better.

I used to have a room full of real hardware based midi gear. Racks with Roland SC880, Roland M-VS1, Prophet 2002, Alesis D1, Alesis DM5, along with Yamaha DX7, Prophet 2000, MiniMoog, Oberheim TVS, a PAIA patchbay suitcase synth, and other gear I don't miss. I much prefer working with VSTi's for most things.

For keyboard instruments, I'm quite happy not having a room full of multi-tiered stands with keyboards and multiple racks full of midi hardware any longer. Gawd, I used to keep all the midi stuff virtual until the last minute in case I wanted to change something, so to render a project with say 10 midi tracks, I had to run the song ten times, soloing each time one of the midi tracks so I could finally commit and record the audio from it.

[vassaux]

I have re-accumulated a supply of hardware synths, so I'm set for now. I will get a template built for my Kontakt drums, but I do wish more VSTi were built as standalone plugs, rather than needing a sample player to work.

On the subject of "real vs. fake", I could go on for days. Yes, a real harp player is far superior to a sampled harp or synth, especially in performance situations. Deep in a mix, can you tell? It depends on the player, the point of the part, or prominence. I heard a guy telling a story about micing a tambourine for over an hour before the engineer told him "enough". It's a tambourine, it plays 30 seconds in the chorus, and it's not the lead instrument.

If you remember (old warning!), Madonna had a song in the late 80's that had a "string intro", for which a 20-piece orchestra was brought in to play a 20 second part that would have been fine coming off an M1. I think Extreme did almost exactly the same thing, again, synths would have been more than adequate. Again, near that time, Yes put the intro on "Love Will Find a Way", which is all synth, but would have been suitable for a chamber orchestra. YMMV, but use what you've got. If you have a string player who can comp all the parts for you, great! But if you don't, a synth can certainly do the job, and most normal humans won't know the difference.