What does Reaper 1.0 still need?

EnzymeX · 07-04-2006, 11:23 PM

It looks like it won't be long now...

As a midiot, there are of course many MIDI features I look forward to seeing in future Reaper versions.

However, in a few weeks Reaper v1.0 is planned for release, so now is a great time for all of us who are passionate about Reaper to step back and look at the big picture.

In my view, there are two key features that newbies giving Reaper the "half hour" test drive will miss that are NOT related to MIDI:

1. Realtime adjustment of tempo during playback/record. I, like many, hear an idea in my head, and simply want to drag a tempo widget to match the "voices in my head".

2. An audio metronome. Setting up the click track is cumbersome compared using an audio metronome, because you don't "know" if the tempo is right until after you have inserted the click track.

With these two related features implemented, newbies can simply load an instrument, set inputs and outputs, turn on the metronome, hit play, and drag the tempo to their liking. Then, after a quick run through, they can hit record and they are on their way...

The alternative is to get lost in repetitive deletions of the click track, then manually keying in a tempo change, inserting a new click track and hoping it is right. Very frustrating when you just want to hear a tempo and start recording.

Anyway, these are my top requests for v1.

What does everyone else think is needed?

d. gauss · 07-04-2006, 11:26 PM

agree on both points.

Art Evans · 07-05-2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Setting up the click track is cumbersome compared using an audio metronome, because you don't "know" if the tempo is right until after you have inserted the click track.

Just change the tempo of the click source if it's not right first time. Why delete it? Ctrl/F2 takes you to its settings.

As for requests - I think a marker list giving access to listed markers is now my No.1 FR - but it's probably too late now for this version.

Other than that - bug fixes and tweaking what's already there (eg making the new waveform not disappear if you drop a marker or zoom when recording - though I'm glad to have it at all, I hasten to add).

winbe · 07-05-2006, 01:04 AM

Hello...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnzymeX

As a midiot, there are of course many MIDI features I look forward to seeing in future Reaper versions.

personnaly, I would appreciate if I could simply loop my MIDI correctly without having to change nearly each time the "green bar" position in the MIDI editor so it is exactly at beat 5:01:00
instead of 4:04:99 !! This drives me crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnzymeX

1. Realtime adjustment of tempo during playback/record. I, like many, hear an idea in my head, and simply want to drag a tempo widget to match the "voices in my head".

My dream would be to simply be able to change the tempo afterwards, I am not asking realtime...
If you have two midi clips that follow each other on a track, simply change the tempo: everything is now a mess, and you have to realign the clips. So on a real song, this is simply not usable, meaning that you have to precisely know your tempo before even starting your project...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnzymeX

What does everyone else think is needed?

Instead of having advanced MIDI functions, I simply dream of a basic, very rough... event list, so I could at least easily scale velocities for example. That would be only 1 feature, but giving easy access to the values. The existing way of modifying velocities is sooo irritating and slow...

That plus having to realign every clip if I decide to change the tempo...

Apart from that, I simply love Reaper, but being a MIDI user first, I still don't really know how to proceed. I downloaded Jazz++, but then the whole process is a bit awkward...

hleen · 07-05-2006, 03:26 AM

Being an audio-only user, and having used REAPER for live recordings and cd-production I strongly feel the need for just ONE feature: writing of the markers (mmm... maybe support for regions also...) into rendered .wav files...

The solution Art Evans gave us (REABurn) does work fine, but costs extra time... I am not aware of a single DAW that does not support writing of the markers.

I am already very happy with the fact that during recording the peaks are not only built, but also displayed on screen. That gives a little bit extra confidence...

GUI-wise I could imagine some more refinement. I like the way Audition handles docking and resizing of windows, thus giving you an ultimate flexible environment (which can be stored and recallled). Not necessary for 1.0 anyway, but would be nice in the future.

Jae.Thomas · 07-05-2006, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winbe

Hello...

personnaly, I would appreciate if I could simply loop my MIDI correctly without having to change nearly each time the "green bar" position in the MIDI editor so it is exactly at beat 5:01:00
instead of 4:04:99 !! This drives me crazy.

My dream would be to simply be able to change the tempo afterwards, I am not asking realtime...
If you have two midi clips that follow each other on a track, simply change the tempo: everything is now a mess, and you have to realign the clips. So on a real song, this is simply not usable, meaning that you have to precisely know your tempo before even starting your project...

Instead of having advanced MIDI functions, I simply dream of a basic, very rough... event list, so I could at least easily scale velocities for example. That would be only 1 feature, but giving easy access to the values. The existing way of modifying velocities is sooo irritating and slow...

That plus having to realign every clip if I decide to change the tempo...

Apart from that, I simply love Reaper, but being a MIDI user first, I still don't really know how to proceed. I downloaded Jazz++, but then the whole process is a bit awkward...

totally agreed here!

kLyon · 07-05-2006, 11:13 AM

Excluding MIDI (which, I suppose, means excluding Rewire)?
A way to highlight a region -- a loop, for instance -- and determine it's tempo and then apply said tempo to the project.
Ability to import audio CD tracks.
"Render and add" and "render and replace" would be handy for softsynth tracks when mixes begin getting busy (I know the functionality somewhat exists, but those two choices work well in tracktion).
More selection choices: to end of track (project), to beginning. The ability to (with key modifier) select a piece of a clip and, without splitting, ctrl. drag to copy.

that's off the top of my head... I'm sure someone will let me know if any of these are already in Reaper.

ajs · 07-05-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winbe

personnaly, I would appreciate if I could simply loop my MIDI correctly without having to change nearly each time the "green bar" position in the MIDI editor so it is exactly at beat 5:01:00
instead of 4:04:99 !! This drives me crazy.

Even if new MIDI features cannot be implemented, it is definitely a real shame (not to mention a misleading assessment of overall program quality) to have EXISTING features not working very well at all (re: MIDI), and being unstable or unpredictable.

Right now, even the basic MIDI functionality is very buggy and not dependable. You might think there is a piano roll editor there, but, like quoted above, there is only a sort-of editor that is sometimes useful. This and other issues really should be addressed before calling it v.1 - even if no new features are added.

pipelineaudio · 07-05-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajs

Even if new MIDI features cannot be implemented, it is definitely a real shame (not to mention a misleading assessment of overall program quality) to have EXISTING features not working very well at all (re: MIDI), and being unstable or unpredictable.

Right now, even the basic MIDI functionality is very buggy and not dependable. You might think there is a piano roll editor there, but, like quoted above, there is only a sort-of editor that is sometimes useful. This and other issues really should be addressed before calling it v.1 - even if no new features are added.

This needs to be dealt with for sure

What bugginess and unreliabilities are you finding?

ajs · 07-05-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

This needs to be dealt with for sure

What bugginess and unreliabilities are you finding?

for starters, the looping bug mentioned above by winbe. There are some others I've posted about (I think) but since I've stopped using Reaper for MIDI completely, I'd have to play around to remember them. The MIDI functionality, in all honesty, is currently a mostly-non-functionality, and will cause any even semi-MIDI user to leave the show before the curtain closes.

Mark · 07-05-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajs

There are some others I've posted about (I think) but since I've stopped using Reaper for MIDI completely, I'd have to play around to remember them.

Sounds like some of our customers... "I got an error when I did something. I can't remember what I did or what the error was but I want it fixed now!"

We really need a way to report bugs properly. Just posting about them here they can easily get lost. Perhaps Justin needs to setup a "report a bug" form.

EnzymeX · 07-05-2006, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Evans

Just change the tempo of the click source if it's not right first time. Why delete it? Ctrl/F2 takes you to its settings.

The problem is that if you change either the global tempo or the click track tempo they do not affect one another. So you need to change both.

More importantly, as winbe stated the MIDI clips become out of alignment with their measure markers after changing the tempo! You then need to expand/contract your clips to realign correctly with the measures.

I can not think of any reason why a musician would want that behaviour in "measure mode". In all the other hosts I have ever worked with, changing tempo does not change clip alignment with measure markers at all.

After all, "measures" are relative to tempo by definition, unlike a timeline.

This is a huge issue. It means the user is stuck with major rework of clip alignments every time a project's tempo is edited.

Jae.Thomas · 07-05-2006, 04:13 PM

indeed, a major workflow issue./

Youn · 07-05-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnzymeX

I can not think of any reason why a musician would want that behaviour in "measure mode".

I don't use loops and don't use tempo changes to modify midi, so the current behaviour suits my needs where I'm simply using tempo changes after initial Audio/MIDI recording to build tempo maps incase I want to add more MIDI later and want a grid to edit to, or to add tempo-based delays and such.

Just one reason to keep it the way it is as an option. Maybe the other way should be default only because it's like that in other programs. I bet it's no small task to add this "common" behaviour though, so you may need to wait a few versions at least... i.e. a few days, right?

naw, be patient, it'll likely happen. And I see audio plugins that play metronome to fallow tempo all the time, surely some of them work fine with REAPER?

EnzymeX · 07-05-2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Youn

I don't use loops and don't use tempo changes to modify midi, so the current behaviour suits my needs where I'm simply using tempo changes after initial Audio/MIDI recording to build tempo maps incase I want to add more MIDI later and want a grid to edit to, or to add tempo-based delays and such.

Just one reason to keep it the way it is as an option. Maybe the other way should be default only because it's like that in other programs.

Youn,

Can you explain how the change I proposed would affect building of tempo maps? Thanks!

manning1 · 07-05-2006, 07:07 PM

all i want right now is midi drum fill generation as i mentioned before by tapping on a pc kbd key... and a midi drum track to wave drum track drumagog type feature. so i can render a midi drum track with wonderfull drum samples.
the one thing (just a nitpik) i find a bit annoying still is i would like to hilite a piece of audio with just the mouse then right clik ,(instead of shift holding...annoys me...)
and a list of things i can do to that hilited audio appears like...fade in/out, apply an fx, copy, nudge it, etc etc...
also , and i KNOW this is asking a LOT but maybe if reaper identified areas of digital overs, might be usefull for some.
particularly newbies that might record too hot.

ive also always been interested in how artificial dsp intelligence could be applied to a recorded audio track...as in...
hey reaper analyse this track and see if you can make it sound better. and things like.. is it possible to build a dsp algorithm to turn a track recorded useing a junk mic and mic pre and junk sound card into something that sounds like it was recorded through a 2k mic into a 2k mic pre into a hi end set of ada. ie......like a big studio sig chain. sorta like a liquid channel idea.
just day dreaming..apologies !!

alex zonder · 07-05-2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manning1

and a midi drum track to wave drum track drumagog type feature. so i can render a midi drum track with wonderfull drum samples.

Why not using a drum sampler to that end? Here I use the DR-008 but did you try the free Loopazoid? (http://www.kvraudio.com/get/55.html) They say it's quite good.

chip mcdonald · 07-05-2006, 08:16 PM

You know, the thing I hate about DAW's and click tracks is that it's a pain in the butt to create tempo changes... "maps" are a pain to create the way most DAWS work, so I basically don't do it that way and resort to never having the project's tempo set...

It'd be cool to have just a *simple*... SIMPLE tempo "map": a simple time line where you could enter a tempo at a bar line. That's all, no weird scaling-graphs..

chip mcdonald · 07-05-2006, 08:18 PM

... I'd still really like to have the CEP-like ability to render selected .wavs/clips to a separate clip....

pipelineaudio · 07-05-2006, 08:54 PM

if theyre on the same track you can consolidate, or if theyre on diffferent tracks and you want to include fx, use render then chose the stems option

manning1 · 07-05-2006, 09:03 PM

alex...
loopazoid i found clunky.
it would be more efficient imho if the feature was in reaper.

Dukhlovi · 07-06-2006, 02:20 AM

I like to see midi item editing. When you slice a midi part and you edit that part that you only see the midi notes from that part and not of the hole thing. I spend a lot of time searching for the right part to edit. Also i like to see that the play and edit cursor in the editor is synchronised with the rest of reaper. this is the only thing i miss for the rest reaper forfills all my needs.

ajs · 07-06-2006, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

This needs to be dealt with for sure

What bugginess and unreliabilities are you finding?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Sounds like some of our customers... "I got an error when I did something. I can't remember what I did or what the error was but I want it fixed now!"

We really need a way to report bugs properly. Just posting about them here they can easily get lost. Perhaps Justin needs to setup a "report a bug" form.

I just did some searching, here is a major bug that several on here have noticed that I posted about a while back, which causes unreliable MIDI playback, despite the presence of MIDI data which DOES play back in the piano roll:

Quoted from http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthre...highlight=midi ---

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajs

I believe you might be experiencing a major bug that manifests itself by not playing MIDI data from the timeline, despite playing the same data fine in the Piano Roll. See this for more:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1150

You would be the third user I know of that has replicated this problem.

d. gauss · 07-06-2006, 07:03 AM

i got 16 motorized faders and tons of buttons on my big ol' ramsa digital console just sittin' here collecting dust while i fart around mixing with a mouse. sure would like to use 'em all to control reaper the way i do in nuendo & saw.

pipelineaudio · 07-06-2006, 07:41 AM

thats a da-7 right? Didnt someone make a hacked MCU interface for that?

chip mcdonald · 07-06-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

if theyre on the same track you can consolidate, or if theyre on diffferent tracks and you want to include fx, use render then chose the stems option

You can't render just selected clips, only entire tracks - right?

d. gauss · 07-06-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

thats a da-7 right?

da7 indeed. yeah, in nuendo, i can control 16 faders in each of 4 banks, plus mutes n pans.

pipelineaudio · 07-06-2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chip mcdonald

You can't render just selected clips, only entire tracks - right?

Yeah entire tracks

How does the selected clips thing work?

sekim · 07-06-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnzymeX

What does everyone else think is needed?

As a full time Samplitude user, I'm interested in hearing the *Higher quality resampling modes* that are mentioned for future development.

Youn · 07-06-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnzymeX

What does everyone else think is needed?

1. Fine-tunable envelope points and segments (up/down)

bigwoody · 07-06-2006, 02:35 PM

Sorry MIDI guys, another Audio dude chiming in. I say lock down the new features, focus on performance and fine tuning then "birth that baby". Yes someday I do hope to get into/understand MIDI, and also figure I will buy a surface controller at some point, but for recording, editing, mixing and mastering I have become a Reaperholic......

chip mcdonald · 07-07-2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

How does the selected clips thing work?

You select the clips you want mixed down; then "mixdown selected to mono/stereo".

That's all.

It's cool because you can quickly get a comped mix of something that excludes certain things without having to jump through a bunch of hoops soloing/muting, particularly things you'd have to undo if you didn't like the results, or just wanted to quickly consolodate a couple of clips interspersed with clips/tracks you don't want.

H2000 · 07-07-2006, 10:57 AM

Much better streaming/playback performance is needed. Currently, on both my systems, Reaper is unusable for me in any large projects (CPU hit is 2-3x what Vegas does).

I can just imagine what adding in my UAD-1 effects will do.

All the features in the world won't do me any good as it is now.

(PS: yes, this is with .981. and yes, I have tried all settings)

aldi · 07-07-2006, 11:09 AM

i'd like to see a snap function, where the offset of a clip remains after moving it. this means: if i had "snap media items to grid" turned on and i move a clip, that starts just a few samples before a gridline, it will snap to the grid loosing it's starttime.. a snap function like "snap media items relative to grid" would be great. so moving an item like said above to the levt or right it will snap to the same position relative to the next gridline. please, please. i miss this function sooo much

and like mentioned in another thread, accessing the inserted plugins directly would increase the workflow very much.

Justin · 07-07-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2000

Much better streaming/playback performance is needed. Currently, on both my systems, Reaper is unusable for me in any large projects (CPU hit is 2-3x what Vegas does).

I can just imagine what adding in my UAD-1 effects will do.

All the features in the world won't do me any good as it is now.

(PS: yes, this is with .981. and yes, I have tried all settings)

This seems to be something unique to your system (or at least, a percentage of systems), since on all of my test rigs, as well as many users, REAPER outperforms vegas..

Can you describe it here again? I seem to remember an athlonxp, but give ram/hd/os/etc specs too.. thanks.

-J

bigwoody · 07-07-2006, 11:43 AM

I have notice some issues that are happening somewhat frequently during playback/mixing. Generally I have several projects with have 20-25 tracks, maybe 10 of those might have a VST effect or two on them (exclusively Classic stuff), and then the master with an EQ, Compressor and Limiter (again Classic). What has been happening is after editing for an hour or so, if I make some edits to the volume or pan envelopes, change a VST setting or other minor track edits, the playback will freeze (with a red flash box on transport number/location count) for about 30 seconds. If I am able to click the stop play button it will eventually recover without a crash, but will then experience problems more frequently. If I click around too much it can/will lead to a Reaper crash, and a couple of times a total computer crash. If I close Reaper and re-open it seems to stabalize for another period of time. I have been trying my best to try to isolate it to a specific edit, VST or time period, but so far best I can nail down is as described above.

My system is an HP dc7600 running Windows XP. 3.0Gig processor, 160Gig HD and 2 GB RAM. Soundcard is a Realtec 2 channel ALC260.

I always work with only Reaper running and all other services down. Also I have not tweaked any of the system or preference settings in Reaper, just accepted all the defaults.

Given my system size, are there any suggestions to tweak the Reaper parameters to optomize my performance, or is there a possible issue with Reaper similar to the one mentioned by H2000???

manning1 · 07-07-2006, 11:54 AM

woody...
my recommendation is to have two drives.
keep your current one for windows.
a second 7200 rpm with 16mb cache for a dedicated recording drive.
this way you dont have windows contention on the same drive as your recording to.
YOU WILL NOTICE A BIG DIFFERENCE.
or if ya got the buks a monster 15k rpm recording drive....but pricey....lol.
ie...windows contention = windows overrides something while your recording /playing back on the win drive.
if were me i would look at a decent sound card.
on board sound chips are noisy and latency is an issue often plus the convertors in them are terrible.
just trying to help.
ps ensure dma is enabled on hard drives. v imp for daw work/recording.

bigwoody · 07-07-2006, 11:57 AM

Thanks man, I forgot to mention that I do not record in Reaper at all. I record everything to a Fostex MR8HD and move the wav files to Reaper for editing.
Based on your recommendation for Cache on the 2nd hard drive, is cache something that I should look at for my system as it exists now???
If so where do I find that setting?

Also where do I check/change
"ensure dma is enabled on hard drives. v imp for daw work/recording"

manning1 · 07-07-2006, 12:01 PM

woody...
CACHE in hd's is UBER important.
16 mb is best.
if your main drive is 2mb cache which the manufacturers often stuff in systems youll see a big diff if you put in a 16mb cache drive.
ideally a 16mb cache for win and same for recording is my recommendation if ya got an extra 170 buks to spend on drives.
OR try a 16mb cache for win and say a raptor 10k for recording or 15k drive if ya got buks lol.
ideally ya should run tests with a friendly retailer of pc gear.
but with the right drives i bet the "red flashes" will disappear.
YOU CANT BEAT HARD DRIVE RPM SPEED...AND BIG CACHES...lol.
ps...i suspect your main HD currently I BET is a 2mb cache.
i poop on those....lol.
youll have to ask the seller of your pc the model of your current hd then look it up on the net to ascertain how much cache it has.
dollars to doughnuts its a 2mb cache.
get yourself a decent sound card pci then you can record in
reaper. youll have to try a few to see which works best. check the reaper sticky up top out.
a layla 3g perhaps ?? emu 404 is cheap....
or audiophile 2496.
or blow the wad on a firebox for example or delta 1010.
loads of options.
just make sure there is a return policy in case a sound card wont play nice on your system.
believe it or not if you want a cautious approach ive heard the wall mart live ! 24 bit sound card for 30 buks.
not great convertors. but it kind of blew me away for such a low price. dunno how well it works in reaper tho'....
but if yer funds are short might be worth testing out for a low cost way of recording in reaper till more buks.
certainly way way better than on board sound chips.
plus midi is built in. peace.

H2000 · 07-07-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin

This seems to be something unique to your system (or at least, a percentage of systems), since on all of my test rigs, as well as many users, REAPER outperforms vegas..

Can you describe it here again? I seem to remember an athlonxp, but give ram/hd/os/etc specs too.. thanks.

-J

I am starting to feel that way. Although it is both my very different systems that perform poorly.

My desktop is an Athlon XP 2400+, 768M RAM, multiple 7200RPM/8M drives running Win2K. It's optimized for Audio and not connected to the internet. It uses an RME Multiface with latest drivers.

My laptop is a Celeron 1.6GHz, 512M RAM, single (but partitioned) 5400RPM drive running WinXP. I don't do serious Audio work on it, but occasionally do some work with an M-Audio Quattro. I thought it would make a good secondary test for Reaper.

Both systems perform much better with "0" worker threads. Like I said, I don't know the hows and whys. I'm just telling what I am seeing here.

I realize I may be the only person facing this. If so, then that's just the way it goes - I won't be able to fully enjoy Reaper until I upgrade computers. But, I would like to understand why Reaper performs so much worse on these systems.