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Old 02-08-2015, 06:48 PM   #1
Rosetree
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Default Why do stems put together sound better than a two mix? (That's my impression of it)

Hello.

Recently, I have been struggling a bit to master my project using Reaper.

I was rendering a two mix and loading that into a new project for mastering.Then I read about the benefits of stem mastering and gave it a go.

Boom, even before adding any sort of processing to the stem tracks, the overall sound was better to my ears.

Each element had more definition and clarity.
The depths that I created were more clearly "seen" as well.

Of course, considering how you can tweak each stem to your liking is a definite advantage, but why do they sound better than a two mix?

It could be just to my ears, but the overall result of processing the integrated sound on the master buss even sounds better.

I would like to know the technical aspect this phenomenon if possible.

Does Reaper compute better when given separate tracks to be put together through the master buss?

I use a fairly fast and powerful computer and the CPU usage is only around 13% or so even within the mixing project, so I have a feeling that it has nothing to do with how using too many plugins is taking a toll on the overall sound as well.

I would appreciate it if anybody knows a thing or two on this matter!

Thank you in advance.

Rosetree
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Last edited by Rosetree; 02-09-2015 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 02-08-2015, 07:44 PM   #2
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I would be interested in anybody's
thoughts on this too Rosetree.
I have found this to be the case to my ears and dramatically if I might say so.
The result is more life lighter etc.
The difference night and day.
The computer I have has a load of about 1%

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Old 02-08-2015, 07:49 PM   #3
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I don't follow..whats the story?

ARe you saying bounce all the tracks out and then make a final mix from them?

Nevermind I googled it
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Last edited by Cosmic; 02-08-2015 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:05 PM   #4
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Yip Cosmic
Just render all your mix tracks as per instrument type of track momo/stereo etc I render without any effects on the tracks to an independent folder of your making (render as stem tracks at bit rate of your mix).
Then set up a new project at the bit rate of your stems.
Bring these new stem tracks into your project.
You will find you have less tracks to bother about than in your mix project.
You will have to use less effects on your mixdown as well.

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Old 02-09-2015, 07:35 AM   #5
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This is surprising to me. I'd like to hear more.
I would think that it would sound exactly the same.


(Also, this thread was started in the SPAM TRAP folder, so it may make a better splash in another folder.)
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:43 AM   #6
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I would think that say taking all the delay time wise that the software drum kit has and the SW synths we have in the tunes etc etc plus all the routing
and having many tracks say for the likes of a bass or guitar in order to put down a new tune the tracks all have to get bussed to a single track out which probably causes some delay. Rendering the stems produce less tracks to deal with less clutter giving a simpler setup allowing crisper timing and therefore definition? Plus all wave files and no Software synths etc to produce lag.
Simpler to deal with too, as there are less tracks.

Sounds good if you say it fast.

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Old 02-11-2015, 05:34 AM   #7
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Default Thank you for your reply!

Hello grinder.
Thank you for your input!

So, the over all quality of your tracks will improve as a result of putting less work on the computer to "calculate". This makes sense and is understandable I had a few plugins on my master buss in the mixing project and when I rendered stem files, I disabled them because they would not sound all the same if all the tracks are not playing at once.

I saved these plugins as a fx chain and loaded it in my mastering project's master buss expecting that it will sound the same as in the mixing project file. But, as I mentioned, it was clearer.

I had read somewhere that theoretically, your two mix and stem tracks should be identical, so I was just wondering you know.

Although the over all clarity is there, I am still struggling with mastering

It amazes me that something that seems more easy and simple can be more difficult than mixing.

Anyway, once again, thank you for your help!
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Old 02-11-2015, 06:39 AM   #8
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try to render your mix
then render your stems.

add all of this to a project and invert the phase of your mix ( but dont on your stems)

it should add to zero meaning you will not hear anything... meaning all your stems are equal to you mix!
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:13 AM   #9
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I have to say that it was a bombshell for me that when I used to take my mix and render it typically using about 36 tracks. The mix sounded less lively, fresh etc that it did when I rendered all tracks to the individual instrument files (without effects) and then mixed to taste. For me the difference was huge.
This is what I heard not what I was told or wanted to hear because I had heard someone else say it too me.

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Old 02-11-2015, 12:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
I have to say that it was a bombshell for me that when I used to take my mix and render it typically using about 36 tracks. The mix sounded less lively, fresh etc that it did when I rendered all tracks to the individual instrument files (without effects) and then mixed to taste. For me the difference was huge.
This is what I heard not what I was told or wanted to hear because I had heard someone else say it too me.

Grinder

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Well... could you do what lpcrispo suggests above and let us know what happens? We really want to know, because according to theory what you describe should not happen. Unless you have some "dullifying" effect on the master track which does not kick in when you render the individual stems, but does so when you render the whole mix, the difference should be zero.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:13 AM   #11
Rosetree
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Default I did a little test.

Hello.

I did a little test to see if stem files and a two-mix file would completely cancel each other out by inverting the phase of the two mix track.

Interestingly, they were not identical.
Please download the zip file I have prepared from the link below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzD...ew?usp=sharing


The guitar arpeggios are completely cancelled out,
but the guitar phrase and the kick are still heard.
And they are not faintly heard, but heard quite loudly.

They are snippets rendered from the exact same location,
so theoretically, they are meant to be identical.

Also, when you solo each instrument,
each element sounds more open and punchy to my ears.
Of course, there is an issue of masking to a degree, but for
example, the snare seems to contain more top end and snappiness.

Of course not very significantly,
however this is pre-mastering stage and we know how little differences add up when we go about processing the overall sound.

It would be interesting to investigate if this happens for other Reaper users because this phenomenon could be something unique to my environment, but I am not sure, so.

One more thing.
All plugins on the master buss were disabled when rendering the tracks.

Rosetree
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Last edited by Rosetree; 02-12-2015 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:30 AM   #12
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good on you Rosetree I can not get to my audio for another few weeks so cannot do this.
Work is just on on on.
I must have posted about this on another thread(tiredness)
I have found that my pans in my normal projects by the time I have finished my recordings can be all over the place. I found this out by accident as I do not touch them while recording all takes(did).
I check them now though.

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Old 02-12-2015, 04:13 PM   #13
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They should null, more or less, unless I'm misunderstanding. If they don't, there is something going on in your stem creating process. Hard to say what without seeing the original project. Sometimes it could relate to routing and sends and how e.g. reverb plugins handle signals coming to them individually vs together, sometimes it might relate to pan law (though it looks like you rendered stereo stems, so that's unlikely here), sometimes it's some other user error (e.g. user uses "render stereo stems and mute original"'ing, but forgets that the fader level of the top level of the source track(s) is not applied to the stem render, resulting in stems that are louder/quiter than they were when they were being fed to the original master buss -- could this explain your situation?).

There certainly is nothing about the stemming process that would help the computer somehow make "better" sound or crisper snare hits or whatever. Well, one can come up with scenarios, like maybe VSTi's that play in higher quality when the CPU isn't as loaded, etc, but in almost all other cases high CPU doesn't result in bad sound, it just results in dropped samples and the like (which is bad in its way, but a very different kind of bad. :-))

The stem thing is generally used if you're sending your tracks to some other mixing engineer and they want to have a little extra flexibility when mixing/mastering. Aside from saving CPU, I can't see the value in generating them for your own mixing, unless you dig the workflow for some reason (i.e. why not just use folders and hide the child tracks?). Seems like a pain to me. I record, mix, and master in one project. If I'm making an album, I'll master at the 2-track album level for level matching.

If your stem-based mixes are demonstrably better (and I would confirm that with blind level-matched ABX testing if I were you -- see my sig) then I think it would be prudent to explore the real reasons why. If it's just because this or that instrument is louder, that's something you want to know about for your edification.
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Old 02-12-2015, 04:14 PM   #14
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Also, FYI this is the "spam trap" decoy forum -- you might get more responses in the "real" General Discussion forum in the future. :-)
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:00 PM   #15
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It was there before, someone moved it.
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
It was there before, someone moved it.
Someone moved the OP's post to the spam-trap forum? Weird. Maybe there's a spam detector that does that?
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:58 PM   #17
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the thing is that when you export the stems and reimport them to make the final mix you have 2 times the pan law applied.

so the whole thing doesnt cancel out perfectly. and because of this the sides are a tad louder, makes the whole thing appear somewhat bigger and wider.

if you switch the pan law after reimport of the stems to 0db there is no difference.

and ... some time variable plugins like chorus, phaser, flanger and some reverbs will apply a more or less slightly different sound with each render. to be sure that this is not the case, these plugins must be rendered into the track first, then export stems and the whole mix and do a null test.

and: never trust your ears. our hearing is the most unreliable measurement and sense we have. we should smell music, would work a whole lot better.

what I have learned in the last two weeks: the first usual suspect to adress is the pan law.
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
we should smell music, would work a whole lot better.
Have you thought this through? This whole town would stink of Bieber!
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Old 02-17-2015, 02:07 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
we should smell music, would work a whole lot better.
If you aren't 'blessed' by nature with some type of (auditory --> some other sense(s) ) synesthesia, there are various drugs that may induce something quite similar - which can indeed be pretty useful for composing / arranging / mixing / mastering! I've experienced things like cymbals looking (and 'feeling') like glitter rainig down, string sections looking like brown clouds rising from the floor, etc. Unfortunately I've never been able to smell sound, but apparently, *some* people can.
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