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Old 12-12-2011, 11:36 AM   #1
ksor
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Default What is this "noice" ???

I have a MIDI file witch I have played before without any problems - after I updated Reaper to the last version 4.13 I have observed a sort of "noice" on some of the tracks in my MIDI-files.

I have isolated the BASS from one of them in the attached file. I can clearly hear the "noice".

If you use menu Insert\Media file I hope you can hear it too - sounds like "jingle bells" (low volumen compared to the bass) - and I don't think it's because it's Xmas in a while !

1) What is it ?
2) How can I get rid of it ?
3) Is it some setting I've done wrong ?
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File Type: mid TEST.MID (3.9 KB, 141 views)
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Last edited by ksor; 12-12-2011 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:07 PM   #2
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Whatever the "noise" (I suspect aliasing artifacts or a bad sample library) is, it's not in the MIDI-file but coming from the synthesizer playing the MIDI.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
Whatever the "noise" (I suspect aliasing artifacts or a bad sample library) is, it's not in the MIDI-file but coming from the synthesizer playing the MIDI.
But if you can hear it too then it must be caused by "something" in the file that makes Reaper playing these "jingle bells".

I have another MIDI-player and when using it with the same synthesizer there is NOTHING to hear - only the bass itself.
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Old 12-12-2011, 01:40 PM   #4
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The file seems to be a GS conform MIDI file, there's a GS system reset, fretless bass patch and some setup messages at the start all for channel 2, but no jingle bells inherent . Any noise you hear comes from your sound module interpreting the messages and will not be the same for everyone else, but you know that already. I suspect the fretless bass on your sound module isn't the best.

There is a small chance that whatever you use to play the MIDI actually understands the GS messages (mine don't, so I can't test) and doesn't interpret them nicely or they are even meant like that . There are three NRPN messages which could mean anything. In that sense the file could indeed contain your jingle bells. You could try playing the MIDI file without the GS specific messages to check out whether it makes a difference.
To do that open the event list and highlight line 2 and lines 10 through 20. Right click and either delete or just mute the highlighted events. You'll also need to reload or reset the instrument if you already played the file this session.
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:06 PM   #5
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Hi Gofer

You say nothing of my playing the exact same file with another program than Reaper and there is NOTHING to hear - then it can only be Reaper that "see" ghosts in the file or ...

maybe some of my settings is wrong.
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:08 PM   #6
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It'd be more helpful if the original poster posted a sound example that has the problem noise present...

I didn't listen to the MIDI file as it'd be useless as I would very likely be using another synth or sampler which wouldn't help with solving this.
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksor View Post
Hi Gofer

You say nothing of my playing the exact same file with another program than Reaper and there is NOTHING to hear - then it can only be Reaper that "see" ghosts in the file or ...

maybe some of my settings is wrong.
That's up to which devices are used by Reaper vs the other program to create the sound. Why don't you just give some names? Played with HyperCanvas which is GM2 (I think) it plays the fretless bass as well as it can, which is not too well.

What happens if you just set up a fretless bass on that device and play some notes instead of using a MIDI file?
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
That's up to which devices are used by Reaper vs the other program to create the sound. Why don't you just give some names? Played with HyperCanvas which is GM2 (I think) it plays the fretless bass as well as it can, which is not too well.

What happens if you just set up a fretless bass on that device and play some notes instead of using a MIDI file?
That's my next concern - IS Reaper at all good for MIDI ?

Til now I've used as very very simple program called EVA - simple and easy and playing music does NOT evolve to a lot of technic - you can have your focus on PLAYING the music - the PROBLEM with EVA is that you can ONLY have 1 audio track.

Till now my experience with Reaper is a lot of problems - and still growing problems - so maybe Reaper is mostly for audio or ... ?
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:57 AM   #9
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Ksor - as others have asked; what is being used to play the MIDI in Reaper? Is it a VSTi? Or are you sending it to a hardware MIDI device or maybe you use the Microsoft Wavetable synth? Without knowing this we can't really help you,

cheers, 3dmus
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:17 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dmus View Post
Ksor - as others have asked; what is being used to play the MIDI in Reaper? Is it a VSTi? Or are you sending it to a hardware MIDI device or maybe you use the Microsoft Wavetable synth? Without knowing this we can't really help you,

cheers, 3dmus
I send it to my Roland SoundCanvas and when I play the file with the program EVA through that same Roland SoundCanvas then NO 'jingle bells' are ringing.

That's why I mean that Reaper (or my settings in Reaper) see spooky things in that file and produce these "ringing bells".

Do any of you use Reaper for MIDI files ?
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:45 AM   #11
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I think you mean to ask if other people use external devices to play their MIDI through? And the answer would be yes (I used to, but not anymore).

So, you've got the Soundcanvas set up as your MIDI output in the preferences and the track is pointing to that device?
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dmus View Post
I think you mean to ask if other people use external devices to play their MIDI through? And the answer would be yes (I used to, but not anymore).

So, you've got the Soundcanvas set up as your MIDI output in the preferences and the track is pointing to that device?
Yes, that's what I do.
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:00 AM   #13
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Ok, thanks for info about your device. That helps a bit. I couldn't find info about a program called EVA, so still step in the dark. As Xen already said, a sound snippet would also be telling.

I looked up the NRPN messages. They are filter resonance, cutoff frequency and filter release time. We still don't know what you are hearing, maybe jingle bells are just a filter tweak.

My suspicion is that it's indeed these filter tweaks which make your Sound Canvas sound like whatever it is you hear there and your program EVA just isn't able to transmit them when you play the file, so it sounds different.

- Where did the file come from, did you create it`yourself (in EVA?) or downloaded?

- Did you do the test and muted or deleted those messages as proposed in post #4? As you do have a GS device you don't need to kill the Sysex in line 2 and if you leave it in you won't need to reset the device (it's a GS reset message).

- Also, could you please try and answer this question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
What happens if you just set up a fretless bass on that device and play some notes instead of using a MIDI file?
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:37 AM   #14
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I just slapped this file up in Reaper and assigned it to play through a random VSTi.
All worked fine.

I too have a sound canvas (in fact I have two) and I suspect this is a function of Reaper being able to play ALL your MSB LSB stuff and the EVA being not sophisticated to interpret everything.
I assume you did not write this track yourself, or if you did you are using a start-up file taken from another track?

If you remove all the CC98/LSB/MSB lines, I suspect this will play fine in Reaper.
And it should sound no different in EVA
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:15 AM   #15
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I now tried to play the TEST.MID file by VSTi Synth without changing any settings of the VSTi - and it sounds like crab and even out of pitch compared with the Roland SoundCanvas !

That's what I mean with growing technical problems - I want to PLAY music not solve endless rows of problems concerning programs BEFORE I can play the music.

Yes, the original file IS downloaded, but I think I have changed it so much, that comparing the two files will give <20% equal stuff.

I think I'll stay with my EVA !
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:39 AM   #16
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Reaper handles MIDI just fine, and it's getting better all the time.

Before you give up, try this:

1) double click on the MIDI part in Reaper
2) select Mode: event list
3) Click on the first event, press shift, click on event 21
4) Right click, delete
5) Click on event 234 (was 255), an incongruous C#0. Delete it.
6) If that doesn't make it sound any better, go back to the piano roll, and set all the velocities to 127.
7) If that doesn't work, render it to mp3 and post it so we can hear what's going on.

If you can't be bothered with all that, just kill that C#0, event 255, about one minute in. I suspect that's the culprit.

Last edited by Fex; 12-13-2011 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:47 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksor View Post
I now tried to play the TEST.MID file by VSTi Synth without changing any settings of the VSTi - and it sounds like crab and even out of pitch compared with the Roland SoundCanvas !
Which VSTi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksor View Post
Yes, the original file IS downloaded, but I think I have changed it so much, that comparing the two files will give <20% equal stuff.
Did you change stuff in the setup messages or just the notes? I still assume your problem are the setup messages in that file. If EVA doesn't transmit them you are missing out some worth while features of your Sound Canvas, even if in this particular case you don't like the resulting sound.

What's with the other questions you've been asked? As said most probably just by deactivating the extra messages - which aren't Reaper's fault, as it reproduces faithfully what's in the file, other than (if I'm right) EVA - you'd already be fine. Why don't you just try it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksor View Post
That's what I mean with growing technical problems - I want to PLAY music not solve endless rows of problems concerning programs BEFORE I can play the music.

I think I'll stay with my EVA !
You decide of course .
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
Reaper handles MIDI just fine, and it's getting better all the time.

Before you give up, try this:

1) double click on the MIDI part in Reaper
2) select Mode: event list
3) Click on the first event, press shift, click on event 21
4) Right click, delete
5) Click on event 234 (was 255), an incongruous C#0. Delete it.
6) If that doesn't make it sound any better, go back to the piano roll, and set all the velocities to 127.
7) If that doesn't work, render it to mp3 and post it so we can hear what's going on.

If you can't be bothered with all that, just kill that C#0, event 255, about one minute in. I suspect that's the culprit.
#()/)#(/=)(¤/"#"# ... still jingle bells ringing in th back AND ONLY output in the LEFT headphone !
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:57 AM   #19
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That's weird!
If you would be so kind, go to File, Export project MIDI, save the modified version and post it so we can have a look.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:58 AM   #20
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>> Gofer

I simply don't get you - I'm completely new to Reaper and a NOT experienced in changing in the events of the MIDI-files !

I have used EVA for many years now and I want to be able to record some choir by mic and maybe make a demo - just for fun, and EVA can ONLY do 1 audio track - that's why I focused on Reaper ... but if I have to change all of my MIDI files ... then I think I'll be better of NOT using Reaper but look for something else to record my audio tracks.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:59 AM   #21
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Output only left can't be a result of those edits you made.

Why don't you try killing the setup messages already? It's the same procedure as Fex's suggestion, but delete Lines 10 up to 21. You can click on line 10 and then shift+click on line 21 and then hit delete.


Sorry, I'm a bit short, have to leave the house now. Hang in there it's not difficult .
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:15 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksor View Post
I simply don't get you - I'm completely new to Reaper and a NOT experienced in changing in the events of the MIDI-files !
I sympathise, but believe me, editing the event list is easy. Most MIDI messages are just instructions to play what note, on what channel, and for how long. That's all you need most of the time - and the only possible reason that Reaper can be struggling to give you what you want is because there is a whole lot of other stuff in the file that you don't need. If there is still a problem after you strip the MIDI file down to the note messages, then the problem is not with the MIDI file at all.... and it's probably a good idea to find out what it is.
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:29 AM   #23
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OK - I tried again and I admite I must have made a failure in the first place - this time there is sound in both Left AND right ...

... but the Jingle bells are still ringing !

One of you has a (even 2) Roland SoundCanvases - can't you hear the "jingles bells" ?

If not - then maybe it can be some of my settings ?
Attached Files
File Type: mid Test_export.mid (4.4 KB, 117 views)
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:32 AM   #24
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As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You have EVA that works for what you want to do.
In order to get much further than where you are in ANY more powerful sequencer or digital audio workstation, you would have to invest a fair bit of time and effort into learning a minimum of the techie stuff.

As you say, you just want to make music so rather than try and force you to become one of us sad muppets, it might be better for us to say you should go back to what works for you and come see us all again if and when you decide to progress beyond your immediate needs.

We aren't all born recording engineer/producers/multi-instrumentalists, or have the need to be.

Good luck and do come back if we can help.

But your answer does lie in those bits of 'hidden' code you downloaded in the MIDI file.
99% sure Reaper is actually playing what is really in the file, EVA is not.
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:55 AM   #25
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The only oddity I can see in Test_export.mid is that the final All Notes Off message is on a different channel from the actual notes. Are you absolutely sure that this file is generating your jingle bells? How far in do the bells start? If you mute all the notes in the piano roll (Edit>Select all events, then Alt+m) and play the part, do you get silence, or do you still get jingle bells?
Do you have any other parts running in Reaper? Do you have anything else on MIDI Channel 2?
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:30 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
The only oddity I can see in Test_export.mid is that the final All Notes Off message is on a different channel from the actual notes. Are you absolutely sure that this file is generating your jingle bells? How far in do the bells start? If you mute all the notes in the piano roll (Edit>Select all events, then Alt+m) and play the part, do you get silence, or do you still get jingle bells?
Do you have any other parts running in Reaper? Do you have anything else on MIDI Channel 2?
It starts after the first pair of notes and the kind of follows tha bass nearly as an echo all the way through.

If I mute all motes as you said, I get totally silence.

I have nothing else running in reaper or in ch 2.
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:37 AM   #27
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You asked me to delete all events 10-21 in the first file - was that wise !

Should there be a least a RESET left and maybe more - how can I know what and what should not be left or deleted ?
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:55 AM   #28
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Hi again! If you are getting as far as seeing the various bits in the Eventlist, delete all but the originl reset line, plus the control codes.
CC0 CC7 CC10 CC11 CC90 CC91 CC93 are all cool to leave in, but the rest you can delete.

Before you try the midi file again, do a full manual factory reset on the SC just to be sure there is nothing left behind.
It really does sound as though you have one of the FX/Filter settings still running.
Oh and I tried your file on my SC 88vl AND my SD35 via reaper and neither is playing what you are hearing.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:45 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Hi again! If you are getting as far as seeing the various bits in the Eventlist, delete all but the originl reset line, plus the control codes.
CC0 CC7 CC10 CC11 CC90 CC91 CC93 are all cool to leave in, but the rest you can delete.

Before you try the midi file again, do a full manual factory reset on the SC just to be sure there is nothing left behind.
It really does sound as though you have one of the FX/Filter settings still running.
Oh and I tried your file on my SC 88vl AND my SD35 via reaper and neither is playing what you are hearing.
It's no good at all to just delete all thouse events - all my settings of reverb, chorus etc etc then goes down the drain !

I looked into more of my files and ALL of them has the LAST event in every Ch as "all notes off" - but for Ch 1 !!!!!!
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:13 AM   #30
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CC91 and CC93 control reverb chorus etc, which is why I said to keep them.
CC11 and CC7 do volume and level, CC10 is pan. CC0 is modulation or vibrato.

These are all standard MIDI codes.
CC120 is all notes off CC121 is all notes reset.

Roland has pitch bend and a few others set up as resident commands but also has a bunch of other stuff tucked away in things like either CC95 CC98 or the NPN RPN numbers.

If you are losing your chorus and reverb settings, why do you even have them on for a fretless bass patch?

I usually run the following:

(SYSEX chain to reset to GM or GS here)

Control. Value. Meaning
CC121 0 Reset all notes
CC11 127 Set volume to max
CC7 100 Set expression to 100/127
CC10 64 Set pan to centre
CC91 12 Set reverb send level to 12/127 (just enough for bass usually)
CC93 0 Set second effect usually chorus to 'off'

for my bass tracks.

Bugger! The table should be formatted as three columns: Control, Value and Meaning but the forum won't let me. Hope this still makes sense.


Forgot to add that even if you have an "all notes off" command at the end of every single track there can still be stuff left behind in your Sound Canvas not affected by that.
Back when I only had my two SCs I often forgot to reset at the beginning of each track and then define what instrument patch, etc., should be used. Very often got some interesting results when I played a SMF for a regular jazz band setup right after I had played one with a bunch of ethnic instruments on it.
And more importantly in your case I also got left- over filter settings etc which messed up the sounds.

Last edited by ivansc; 12-13-2011 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Rubbish forum formatting or stupid old poster.. you guess
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:31 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
If you are losing your chorus and reverb settings, why do you even have them on for a fretless bass patch?
Reverb's a bit unorthodox, but fretless bass sounds awesome with chorus on....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksor View Post
It starts after the first pair of notes and the kind of follows tha bass nearly as an echo all the way through.
I know this is frustrating, but we are getting somewhere - we've established that the problem is not caused by the MIDI file, and that you may as well leave those lines in!

If the noise "kind of follows the bass nearly as an echo all the way through", then maybe it is an echo - I'd guess that the SoundCanvas has modulation effects on board?

You should do a full reset and then try the MIDI file again per Ivansc's suggestion. Other than that, I think I can suggest anything else - it looks like the problem is with SoundCanvas, not with the MIDI and not with Reaper. You might get further talking to Roland support.
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:06 PM   #32
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Maybe I now found the problem !

In the file TEST.MID from my first posting there are an event in line 17:

Data Entry MSB(6)

with a value 50

If I change this value to 0 - then the 'Jingle Bells' disappear !

OK - it sounds like the bass sound has changed a little, but OK it still sounds like a bass.

How can I find out
1) what these first lines of events means ?
2) if they are grupped - so if I deletes one line then I HAVE to delete some others too because they belongs to the same group
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Last edited by ksor; 12-13-2011 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:37 AM   #33
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That's what I am harping about since post#4 . If you had tried this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
What happens if you just set up a fretless bass on that device and play some notes instead of using a MIDI file?
or this
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
You could try playing the MIDI file without the GS specific messages to check out whether it makes a difference.
To do that open the event list and highlight line 2 and lines 10 through 20. Right click and either delete or just mute the highlighted events. You'll also need to reload or reset the instrument if you already played the file this session.
we'd already be at this point (even if there's a wrong line number in that latter advice).

Lines 10 to 21 are three settings sent to your device. Each setting consists of 4 messages. They are called NRPN (Non-Registered Parameter Numbers) and were invented to enhance MIDI's 128 CC numbers, so that more parameters in a device can be tweaked via MIDI without having to resort to SysEx messages which are uncomfortable to edit.

A NRPN message set consists of
  • NRPN LSB (CC 98) and NRPN MSB (CC 99) which work together to address up to 16384 (128*128) individual parameters. They always come as a pair. What they do is tell the receiving device "The next data entry message (CC 6) is meant to tweak parameter x".
  • Data entry messages which tweak the parameter specified with the above to a value. Data entry can (but doesn't need to) come as a LSB/MSB pair as well. If you need only 128 discrete values you only need to send Data Entry MSB (CC 6). By sending Data Entry LSB as well you can have a finer resolution. Normally in the MIDI specs Data Entry LSB is CC 38, but it seems Roland chose CC 56 for whatever reason.
DATA entry always talks to the parameter which is specified by the last pair of NRPN messages.

In your specific file there are three parameters tweaked by NRPN:

- lines 10 to 13 is filter resonance - set to zero
- lines 14 to 17 is filter cutoff frequency - set to 50
- lines 18 to 21 is filter envelope release time - set to 82

Your questions:
1) I googled "Roland GS NRPN" to find out. The table I found http://odasan.s48.xrea.com/dtm/nrpn.html is hard to read though, because the numbers are in hexadecimal, while Reaper's event list shows them as decimal values. Maybe you can find a friendlier list.

2)Although they come in groups, only deleting the Data Entry messages (CC 6 will be enough - the CC 56 are zero anyway, which the device defaults to) technically is doing the trick. But it's not really clean for the next one reading the file.

I'd say to get the default fretless bass sound (apart from FX levels, pan and volume) you need to deactivate all three NRPN sets, not just set cutoff filter freq to zero (it's highly unlikely that the default fretless bass has it set to zero). Kill them all, reset your device (though the SysEx at the start should do just that) and you should hear the original untweaked sound.
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Old 12-14-2011, 04:53 AM   #34
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>> gofer

Maybe you'r right but first I have to UNDERSTAND what you say and I didn't at that time.

Now I tried to delete the lines as you say but ...

Unfortunately NO CHANGE !

I still hear "Santa Claas ringing the 'Jingle Bells'" in the back !

I told before that it was like an echo - it's not - it's more like a bell is ringing repeatedly at every note of the bass - if the bass is sounding for, let's say 1/4 of a bar, then the "bell" is ringing - maybe 10..13 times very fast upon each other - like a stroke for every "micro step" shifting pitch for every new note on the bass. The pitch of the 'bells' is NOT following the bass notes up and down in pitch - it seems like the bells is ringing at random pitch !
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Last edited by ksor; 12-14-2011 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:30 AM   #35
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I now tried to connect a keyboard and record some keystrokes on a track.

When the recording is replayed the "jingle bells" are ringing with every keystroke on the keyboard !

What is wrong in my ... settings, hardware, MIDI-interface ... or ... I don't know !!!!!!!!!!!!

HILFE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:12 AM   #36
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Now I tried to delete the lines as you say but ...

Unfortunately NO CHANGE !

I still hear "Santa Claas ringing the 'Jingle Bells'" in the back !
Just so we're clear - is this still happening after the system is reset, when playing a MIDI part without those bothersome control messages?

If setting those values to zero was working for you, do that instead of deleting them.

Otherwise, if SoundCanvas is causing you so many problems, don't use it. You can get a General MIDI soundfont set (complete with fretless bass) to run within a VST.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:21 AM   #37
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>> gofer

About the reset - I have the reset in the start of the file, and I think it will do it, because your wrote:
"..reset your device (though the SysEx at the start should do just that).."

Setting them to zero did help but I think that was random, because the bass changed the sound as well - so it's NOT a good solution.

VST - is that a part of the Reaper installation allready ?
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:39 AM   #38
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Setting them to zero did help but I think that was random, because the bass changed the sound as well - so it's NOT a good solution.
What about changing (or deleting) just the event in line 17 that you identified earlier as causing the problem - does that cause the bass sound to change?
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Originally Posted by ksor View Post
VST - is that a part of the Reaper installation allready ?
Virtual Studio Technology instruments are what most of us use to generate audio from MIDI. If you experiment with VSTi instead of using SoundCanvas exclusively, your sounds will change; they'll get better. For one thing, Santa won't be there.

Here's a free bass to get you started:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/602
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:46 AM   #39
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What about changing (or deleting) just the event in line 17 that you identified earlier as causing the problem - does that cause the bass sound to change?Virtual Studio Technology instruments are what most of us use to generate audio from MIDI. If you experiment with VSTi instead of using SoundCanvas exclusively, your sounds will change; they'll get better. For one thing, Santa won't be there.

Here's a free bass to get you started:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/602
Yes, it causes the bass sound to change.

You say VSTi, another says VST - what's the difference ?

Where do I install the software "bass" ?
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:23 AM   #40
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You say VSTi, another says VST - what's the difference ?
Not all VST plugins are instruments; you get VST modulation effects, too (and someone created a decent game of chess as a VST, just to prove that he could).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksor View Post
Where do I install the software "bass" ?
Typically Program Files\Steinberg\Vstplugins - some plugins need to be installed, and will go there by default, but usually you just drop the downloaded dll file in there.

You can actually have your plugins folder anywhere you want, but must configure Reaper to scan that folder (under Options>Preferences>Plugins/VST). You can configure Reaper to scan several folders.
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