Picking an amp for reamping?

[J Dubbs]

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to the whole production aspect of music but I'm slowly learning how things work and one big problem for me is that IMO amp processors or cab impulses aren't cutting it for me.

I'm trying to find an amp to use for reamping and I need some help picking the best option for me. I play all sorts of music from metal, to reagge, to alternative and so on. I need an amp that can produce a sound that can be heavily manipulated to fit many different genres and styles. I'm looking at getting a 1X12 or 2X12 combo amp, a tube of course.

Also, is it a bad idea to get a modeling amp like the Line 6 spiders or Peavy Vypyrs for reamping? Should I just get a typical tube combo and add plugins or stomp boxes for effects rather than a deticated modeling amp?

I'm really confused and looking to move forward, any oppinions are apreciated. My price range at this time is gonna have to cap around $800.00 if that's of any help.

[pattste]

In my opinion, reamping isn't for you. If you need a variety of different sounds and styles and your budget is limited to $800, you will end up with a modelling amp. You might as well use modelling plugins. It will be a lot easier, you will get a sound that is at least as good as a cheap modelling amp and you can get even more variety from plugins. Reamping makes sense if you have a few quality amps already and a good room to record in. A good reamping device like the Radial ProRMP and a good microphone like a Sennheiser e906 and you've already spent half of your budget.

[robo]

Reamping to a modelling amp seems redundant when you can just buy PodFarm2 from Line6.com if you like that sound.

Try: lepouplugins.blogspot.com among others on guitarampmodeling.com

Additionally cab IRs from redwirez.com cover a lot of ground.

For me nothing covers as much ground as moving a mic around a real amplifier connected to a speaker... so, if you go that route search the forums and google for tutorials and practice!

There are a lot of cheap and fun small amps out now like Egnater Tweaker, Jet City Pico, THD Univalve, Blackheart and so on.

Good luck,
-robo

[J Dubbs]

So reamping modeling amps is a no go? I'm still going to try to find something that'll work cause a few guys that my band's worked with did some reamping for us and some other projects and I love the sound and versatility it offers.

Do you guys think getting a nice tube combo (not modeling), reamping the DI samples through that, and then running it back through a modeler VST (for things like flangers, chorus, phasers, ect.) would produce a decent sound or am I way off the beam with this one?

[richie43]

Originally Posted by robo

Reamping to a modelling amp seems redundant when you can just buy PodFarm2 from Line6.com if you like that sound.

Try: lepouplugins.blogspot.com among others on guitarampmodeling.com

Additionally cab IRs from redwirez.com cover a lot of ground.

For me nothing covers as much ground as moving a mic around a real amplifier connected to a speaker... so, if you go that route search the forums and google for tutorials and practice!

There are a lot of cheap and fun small amps out now like Egnater Tweaker, Jet City Pico, THD Univalve, Blackheart and so on.

Good luck,
-robo

Any of the small Egnater or Blackheart amps are great for tracking. Huge sound at low volumes if you experiment with mic placement.

[Kenny]

a Fender Champ is a great affordable standard. Virtually every manufacturer makes a low wattage no frills tube amp specifically for this sort of thing. You can try a few out and find the one that is the most usefull to you. For your budget, you may be able to get two different flavors on the secondhand market.
I wouldn't say using a modeling amp is ENTIRELY redundant. Capturing the sound of the amp, moving the air in the room is still better than ITB amp modeling, in my opinion, but I would still recomomend finding a small (8" or 10") low watt combo. Smaller amps for this sort of thing are usually favorable on account of getting to the "sweet spot" at lower volumes. You can make it sound cranked on the recording without actually cranking it.
For your last question, I would definitely add the effects to the dry signal before it gets to the amp...just as would be the natural signal chain of the guitarist.

[richie43]

The only amp sim that I use when I am not micing a real amp, for tracking and reamping, is the Scuffman. Only one I've ever used that feels like an amp. Free eval on that too, so you can't lose by trying it.

[J Dubbs]

Originally Posted by Kenny

a Fender Champ is a great affordable standard. Virtually every manufacturer makes a low wattage no frills tube amp specifically for this sort of thing. You can try a few out and find the one that is the most usefull to you. For your budget, you may be able to get two different flavors on the secondhand market.
I wouldn't say using a modeling amp is ENTIRELY redundant. Capturing the sound of the amp, moving the air in the room is still better than ITB amp modeling, in my opinion, but I would still recomomend finding a small (8" or 10") low watt combo. Smaller amps for this sort of thing are usually favorable on account of getting to the "sweet spot" at lower volumes. You can make it sound cranked on the recording without actually cranking it.
For your last question, I would definitely add the effects to the dry signal before it gets to the amp...just as would be the natural signal chain of the guitarist.

Thanks man that's actually really helpfull. Getting a fairly small tube is what I'm thinking about and then I can just process the hell out of it, right?

I didn't even think about going for two cheaper amps, maybe one for cleaner or dryer tones & one for heavier or wetter tones? I've been trapped in the mindset of one omni-tonal amp haha.

I've been considering a VOX AC15 for quite some time but I'd imagine they're hella loud like the AC30s. Any thoughts on that?

[bozmillar]

Originally Posted by J Dubbs

I've been trapped in the mindset of one omni-tonal amp haha.

There's definitely no such thing as that. Every amp has it's uses.

I'm curious to know how far you've looked down the modeling route. If you are going for the "I have this sound in my head that I want to replicate" you probably won't find it with amp sims or real amps. From my point of view, amp sims have already caught up and passed up real amps. Plus, modern music, especially metal, all sounds like amp sims anyway. To me it sounds like everyone is trying to get their real amps to sound like amp sims.

[Kenny]

Opinions vary greatly in this department. I do not agree that amp sims have surpassed real amps. But then, I also don't like the sound of most modern metal guitars. Too synthetic, I'd rather just use synths than brutalize guitar tone to sound like a sawtooth wave. I haven't found any sim or modeler to come anywhere close to my fender, vox, or ampeg amps. Hell, I like my old Peavey Stereo Chorus better than ampsims.
If you ARE a guitar player, I'd say go for a real amp that fits with your own sound...even if you have to wear many hats, you might not find one to cover everything, but you should find one to cover most ground that's forgiving enough to post processing to get the rest of what you need. Maybe the listener can't tell the difference on the finished product, but a guitar player, at least this guitar player (and I know many who share my view), can really tell the difference when they're playing.
The Vox AC15 is a great amp, I love me some Vox, but it's not what I'd consider entirely versitile. For the alt rock and reggae stuff, it should sound great, but I don't know that it would give you what you want for metal. Also, when I said "low watt" I meant more like 1-5Watt. 15 Watt Tube can still be some honking power and need a bit of volume to hit that sweet spot. That's fine if you don't have volume constraints. But if it's really just for recording, you can save a lot of money and your ear drums by going with the 5w and under variety. And I find vox's to have a particularly bitey upper-mid range which is great for being heard over a live band without actually having to be much louder than anyone else, but doesn't always blend well on record. The 1-5w range of amps are popular now, usually between $150 and $250, but limited with on board control, which means any tone shaping may have to be handled ITB or with external effects. Ultimately, you need to try before you buy.
As a life long guitar player, I have a lot of opinions about amps and MY sound. For example, I can't stand Marshalls. A lot of guys will jump down my throat for that, and in fact it may be just what you need for that metal tone, but they don't do it for me at all. I find Fenders of the blackface ilk to be the best for fitting into any genre, blending very naturally into any mix, and very compatible with any kind of stomp box you want to throw at it. But it's all to taste.
So basically, I'd say get out there and try stuff out hands on. You can download demos of ampsims and even some free ones. Maybe you'll find something that totally fits the bill for you, maybe not. Then go out and try out a bunch of amps. Remember you don't need too many frills and they don't need to be big and loud...small and rich is best in the studio. You may find a modeler that gives you what you want, or you may elect to get the 4W Vox, the 5W Fender Champ AND the 5W Marshall and have all your ground covered for around $600 with a collection of real amps.
One final word of warning... Tubes can often mean extra noise. I don't mind it in my recordings. Usually it's masked by everything else in rock arrangements, but understand and be prepared that it will be something you'll have to deal with. Don't go for tubes just because it's the "in" thing. Make sure it's really the sound you want. There's nothing wrong with solid state, and you may actually find more versitality going down that route.
And there may in fact be something close to an Omin-amp for you out there, but you'll be looking to spend a couple grand for it, and they won't be idiot proof. If you're actually a guitar player who needs a great on-stage amp as well, it may be worth it to save a little more and check out something like Mesas or other smaller boutique brands. Egnaters are quite versitile and you might find something that suits you in your price range.
Basically you have a world of options out there, so this has probably been of little help to you making up your mind, but hopefully I've helped to give you a clearer idea of what to look for.

[richie43]

Well put Kenny.^^ I'd quote it, but it takes up so much real estate! But that last post should be read and re-read. I am a life-long player, and agree with most of what was said. A good amp, a few good mics, and a decent room can yield some awesome results. But the player has more to do with it. My Fender Blackface Twin is too loud to track at home, but my Egnater Rebel is perfect, and versatile. I've tried the little Blackhearts, and they are a great low wattage recording amp. But as I said earlier too, the Scuffman sims are amazing for a sim.

[J Dubbs]

Originally Posted by bozmillar

There's definitely no such thing as that. Every amp

Yeah I know that much, but a man can dream right? Lol

Wow Kenny, you're schooling me hard here haha I really appreciate it. I guess you're right, the best thing to do is really to just get off my ass and find out what's going to work for me and what's not. All the oppinions help to get my mindset right before I do that though.

[pixeltarian]

I've heard a lot of modeling preamps, especially line 6 stuff. I personally can't understand how anyone can possibly think they sound good. To me they sound like someone took a guiar sound and removed everything that gave it a soul. The only modeling I've ever liked is softube vintage amp room, and even that isn't as good as the real thing, it's just the closest I've heard. I can't vouch for metal amp room though. slightly off topic, but I do think the new mark bass plugin by overloud is the best bass modeling I've ever heard. I haven't really played on a lot of bass amps though so all that really means is I like what it does for the bass a lot.

[Gerry P]

I would suggest googling "craig anderton amp" for a wealth of info on recording guitars, amps and sims.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

I've heard a lot of modeling preamps, especially line 6 stuff. I personally can't understand how anyone can possibly think they sound good.

Meh.... Sounds like someone using presets instead of approaching it like a real amp. Presets are for selling gear not for getting tone. Either way, I have a few PODS and I immediately rip out all the presets and build amps from the ground up. I'll challenge most anyone here to tell the difference in a recording between it and a real amp and I'm actually a real amp fan.

[karbomusic]

but my Egnater Rebel is perfect

I'm in love with my Rebel 30 I picked up last year. Such a wonderful sounding piece of gear.

[richie43]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

I'm in love with my Rebel 30 I picked up last year. Such a wonderful sounding piece of gear.

Mine replaced 2 other high end amps. Super versatile.

[Guncho]

"I need an amp that can produce a sound that can be heavily manipulated to fit many different genres and styles."

Yeah this is not what real amps are good at.

This is like asking, "What car is good at off roading and the Indy 500"?

[J Dubbs]

Originally Posted by pixeltarian

slightly off topic, but I do think the new mark bass plugin by overloud is the best bass modeling I've ever heard. I haven't really played on a lot of bass amps though so all that really means is I like what it does for the bass a lot.

I'll check it out, as far as bass modeling goes I've been using Ampeg SVX and I love that thing, very realistic.

[HIO]

The amp and company that I gave a link to are unethical!!!

[shemp]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Meh.... Sounds like someone using presets instead of approaching it like a real amp. Presets are for selling gear not for getting tone. Either way, I have a few PODS and I immediately rip out all the presets and build amps from the ground up. I'll challenge most anyone here to tell the difference in a recording between it and a real amp and I'm actually a real amp fan.

agree. I'm really happy with Podfarm. I switch around between different sims and usually end up going back to Podfarm.

[Ferret King]

@ J Dubbs,

FWIW I've used the Line 6 modeling for years. I have switched back to analog and it's no going back (at least for heavy distortion tones). I still use modeling plugs here and there for cleans..but IMO distortion digitally reproduced just has a nasty harsh sizzly aftertaste (so to speak!) You may consider looking into the Blackstar gear...affordable tube amps geared towards hard rock tones but have decent clean tones as well. If you need a wide variety and decide to go modeling, running any amp modeler (Line 6 etc.) through a tube amp with a mic will warm the tone noticeably.

[minerman]

Originally Posted by Ferret King

@ J Dubbs,

FWIW I've used the Line 6 modeling for years. I have switched back to analog and it's no going back (at least for heavy distortion tones). I still use modeling plugs here and there for cleans..but IMO distortion digitally reproduced just has a nasty harsh sizzly aftertaste (so to speak!) You may consider looking into the Blackstar gear...affordable tube amps geared towards hard rock tones but have decent clean tones as well. If you need a wide variety and decide to go modeling, running any amp modeler (Line 6 etc.) through a tube amp with a mic will warm the tone noticeably.

I just bought a Blackstar HT-5 combo amp & a Shure SM57 mic for this purpose. It's a bit of trial/error, as I've never mic'd a real amp before, but so far, the results are pretty decent. I still use my ampsims to track with, & re-amp the di's later when I have the place to myself & won't piss off the wife .......

[richie43]

Originally Posted by minerman

I just bought a Blackstar HT-5 combo amp & a Shure SM57 mic for this purpose. It's a bit of trial/error, as I've never mic'd a real amp before, but so far, the results are pretty decent. I still use my ampsims to track with, & re-amp the di's later when I have the place to myself & won't piss off the wife .......

I used to get HUGE guitar tones with the same amp, until I switched it out for the Egnater Rebel 30. Both are amazing for recording.

[J Dubbs]

Originally Posted by Ferret King

@ J Dubbs,

FWIW I've used the Line 6 modeling for years. I have switched back to analog and it's no going back (at least for heavy distortion tones). I still use modeling plugs here and there for cleans..but IMO distortion digitally reproduced just has a nasty harsh sizzly aftertaste (so to speak!) You may consider looking into the Blackstar gear...affordable tube amps geared towards hard rock tones but have decent clean tones as well. If you need a wide variety and decide to go modeling, running any amp modeler (Line 6 etc.) through a tube amp with a mic will warm the tone noticeably.

I definatly agree, most heavily distorted tracks just sound nasty in amp mods (just my oppinion) but for cleans and even some overdrive, mods are more than enough. I'm thinking I might go with running an amp mod for anything that's not heavily distorted and reamping the heavier stuff.

I'm really interested in what you said about running an amp modeler through a tube amp and then miking that signal. Can you explain that a bit more? What would you do; bypass the modeler's cab or impulse, let that impact the DI signal, and then send that through the amp? What kind of sound would running the mod through a tube produce?

[richie43]

Interesting, because I prefer the cleans of my amp to any sim, but I am 50/50 on heavy distortion. And I have had terrible luck amping a modeled signal. It seemed like too much amp or preamp coloring. But obviously there is no right or wrong here.

[chip mcdonald]

Originally Posted by Kenny

a Fender Champ is a great affordable standard.

Hah, have you seen how much Fender wants for a real Champ these days?

[chip mcdonald]

One of the Randall modular amps with the plexi and a blackface module.

[richie43]

I still say that a small Egnater or Blackheart amp is the best and affordable option for small amp but big tracking sounds. Wall of sound even, if that's your thing. Plus the Egnaters are not 1 trick ponies, many many tones available with the 2 distinctly different but blendable power tube sections.... brilliant.

[Kenny]

Originally Posted by chip mcdonald

Hah, have you seen how much Fender wants for a real Champ these days?

Yeah, I was talking about this one: http://www.amazon.com/Fender-Champio...1333079&sr=8-1

Not the $1000 tweed reissue thing. I think that's more for midlife-crisis type collectors.

That was just my first suggestion because back in the day (pre-modeling) in several studios I worked in they were the standard for anal engineers to get a clean tone that could be easily, and convincingly, manipulated in post. I can't think of a single studio I walked into pre-milenium, that didn't have a champ out and ready to go at a moment's notice.

[richie43]

Originally Posted by Kenny

I can't think of a single studio I walked into pre-milenium, that didn't have a champ out and ready to go at a moment's notice.

Yup. I did alot of session work as a guitarist in the 90's and early 2000's, and the Champ was always right around the corner unless it was already mic-ed up when I showed up to track. The Egnater has just been a great tracking amp for my own project studio. It does everything that I used to use a Marshall, Mesa, Soldano, and Fender Twin/Bassman for.

[chip mcdonald]

Originally Posted by Kenny

I can't think of a single studio I walked into pre-milenium, that didn't have a champ out and ready to go at a moment's notice.

Yeah, I know (building a Champ is in my future), but those 600's aren't going to give the guy a modern metal tone (since he mentioned that), or the capability of using it at a gig.

[Kenny]

Originally Posted by chip mcdonald

Yeah, I know (building a Champ is in my future), but those 600's aren't going to give the guy a modern metal tone (since he mentioned that), or the capability of using it at a gig.

I agree totally. And my above expose on the topic expands on that.

[Ferret King]

Originally Posted by J Dubbs

I'm really interested in what you said about running an amp modeler through a tube amp and then miking that signal. Can you explain that a bit more? What would you do; bypass the modeler's cab or impulse, let that impact the DI signal, and then send that through the amp? What kind of sound would running the mod through a tube produce?

You could experiment with both ... but more with the amp/cab both. Without cab impulse it sounds bad either direct or through the amp (IMO). It just sounds so much warmer and smoother...more natural. I run a blues deluxe reissue with a tried and true sm57 and it works well. Even with a POD, it brings more warmth...