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Old 10-10-2016, 12:23 PM   #41
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I love M/S recording classical guitar and have run into the "crooked" issue where one side channel is louder than the other. Rather than boosting the low side I experimented using phasebug on the mid channel and usually +/- 6 degrees of phase correction evens everything out for me. I hope this is not blasphemy haha. I asked about this in the recording forum but never got a reply.
Anyway, it works for me and makes sense but I am no pro.
Back to L/R it should ust be adjusting the stereo-balance.
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Old 10-10-2016, 12:52 PM   #42
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Yes, normally, I would agree but in my case where one side channel is louder than the other, bringing up the slider on one side channel does not do what you would expect due to phase issues. I can't remember but it wound up doing something like the opposite when the audio was combined in the parent folder. I would increase the right side channel but everything would pan left.

Initially, I thought it was because I couldn't line up the mics exactly perfectly.
I do remember when muting the MID track, all was well. Unmute and the things would pan off center which is what made me think of phase correcting the mid track and it worked for me. I asked about this in the recording section as I was sure I am doing something wrong but never got an answer.

I wish I could remember more details but I am at work and when I get home, I will post a stripped down project that demonstrates this.
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Old 10-13-2016, 07:35 PM   #43
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ok, it took awhile to find an old project that displayed the "crooked" mid-side behavior. Initially I thought it was an off axis problem. Anyway, yes raising the low side track does work but sometimes there is not enough slider to even out the sides. In this project, there is but it sounds dull.

There are three tracks, mid, left and right.
The project opens with the mid muted, notice how the sides are even.
1) Unmute the mid track, notice the guitar pans left somewhat.
2) Bringing up the right side is ok but enabling phasebug sounds fuller

https://www.dropbox.com/l/scl/AAB6Xd...6msfFmZprEWjz4
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:34 PM   #44
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Agree... Might add that the early days of MS (if memory serves) was more about capturing a stereo image of multiple people or a roof full of people...
I think you meant "room" full of people (!) Guess it would also work on a roof although wind noise could be a problem...

Anyway, I seem to recall reading that M-S might be preferred where the sound field has more "centre" than "sides", because the "mid" mic is facing directly towards the sound source. X-Y sometimes worked better for wider "stereo" sources. And yes, this was for basic 2-track stereo, w/o multi-miking.

In a decent room, at the right distance, M-S should work fine for acoustic guitar. Years ago I did a classical guitar CD with M-S (Schoeps, fig.-8 and a wide cardioid) in the client's living room. Not a great room, but it had an even acoustic which took added reverb well.

One of the best classical guitar sounds I remember was on a Sharon Isbin CD from several years ago-maybe "Dreams of a World"(1999) I was so impressed that I e-mailed her via her agent to say how much I liked it. She replied personally and told me that Teldec had used "a very expensive new mic" on the guitar (might have been an M149), with two spaced mics further back. She didn't know the technical details but I'd guess the two other mics were omnis.

This would make sense because for this sort of recording, you want to recreate what you might hear in a small venue, which would be a solid centre image from the guitar (which doesn't have much "stereo" sound unless you multi-mic it to exaggerate the effect), with ambience around it.

I've not tried M-S with Reaper yet but I'm looking forward to playing with the JS M-S encoder/decoder plugins. I also have a Speiden/Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon and just acquired an Apogee Duet, which should make for an excellent basic stereo setup.
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
I love M/S recording classical guitar and have run into the "crooked" issue where one side channel is louder than the other. Rather than boosting the low side I experimented using phasebug on the mid channel and usually +/- 6 degrees of phase correction evens everything out for me. I hope this is not blasphemy haha. I asked about this in the recording forum but never got a reply.
Anyway, it works for me and makes sense but I am no pro.
This is what I do as well. Mocked up a Js plugin that is basically an encoder with phase plugin baked into it. The Js phase adjustment included in REAPER seemed a bit broken or not ideal, so I couldn't cheat of of it, and I didn't feel like doing my homework, so I just sort of scrapped it. (Maybe it's just not Phase bug, love that thing.)

tweaking the phase of the mid is a heck of a lot more interesting than just turning it up or down relative to the side. It's as much of an "eq" as it is something that balances the stereo field.

It's only blasphemy if you are recording classical music in an amazing space I guess.
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:40 PM   #46
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In a decent room, at the right distance,
If it doesn't sound lopsided, I don't mind really, but if it does, I do. M/S in general I like a lot especially with distance which I use when recording band rehearsals from time to time and so on.
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:57 PM   #47
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...t's only blasphemy if you are recording classical music in an amazing space I guess.
Or if anyone finds out. But under the circumstances above, you probably wouldn't need to anyway
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
..
I do remember when muting the MID track, all was well. Unmute and the things would pan off center which is what made me think of phase correcting the mid track and it worked for me. I asked about this in the recording section as I was sure I am doing something wrong but never got an answer.
Considering that the 'lopsided' pan in M/S is the result of the pattern overlap between mics, I think that a rotation of the M signal is probably the most 'correct' way to treat it really. I'll be trying that in future.

I used to have the betabugs rotator, but I lost it, and just use the JS one. I have not noticed anything wrong with it. I'd be interested in what James found that was wrong.

It can null a music signal or test tone with 180 degrees setting.
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:15 PM   #49
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Considering that the 'lopsided' pan in M/S is the result of the pattern overlap between mics, I think that a rotation of the M signal is probably the most 'correct' way to treat it really. I'll be trying that in future.

I used to have the betabugs rotator, but I lost it, and just use the JS one. I have not noticed anything wrong with it. I'd be interested in what James found that was wrong.

It can null a music signal or test tone with 180 degrees setting.
I think it was that if you fed it a hard panned signal, you would get crosstalk to the other channel. May have been user error at the time, I'll confirm when I get back to the studio, (if I remember )


*hmm, yeah it seems fine, no crosstalk. I may have done something under the hood acidentally with the code at the time.

Last edited by James HE; 03-30-2017 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:25 PM   #50
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OK, thanks for getting back on that.
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Old 03-31-2017, 03:11 PM   #51
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OK, thanks for getting back on that.
I'm getting what I can only describe as "zipper" noises on many sources with the js: phase adjustment plugin. something about the fft is not correct here. use phasebug! investigating...
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