Old 03-22-2012, 05:02 PM   #1
dea-man
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Default Dear Justin and Reaper Devs....

...there are a number of hard core Reaper lovers who constantly write that Reaper's midi is less than easy to use, not user friendly, and just plain unwieldy. They (we) also seem to think that our collective voices just keep getting discounted.

Do you feel that Reaper's Midi is up to par and needs no further improvement? Or, is there a problem with changing Reaper's current midi situation coding wise? Or, are the devs general consensus that we are all just kidding ourselves that there is something "not quite right" with Reaper's midi?

Rather than being in the dark, making up our own stories of what the devs think, I wonder if we may infringe upon your generosity and time, and ask for an answer straight from the llama's mouth.

Thank you in advance.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
...there are a number of hard core Reaper lovers who constantly write that Reaper's midi is less than easy to use, not user friendly, and just plain unwieldy. They (we) also seem to think that our collective voices just keep getting discounted.

Do you feel that Reaper's Midi is up to par and needs no further improvement? Or, is there a problem with changing Reaper's current midi situation coding wise? Or, are the devs general consensus that we are all just kidding ourselves that there is something "not quite right" with Reaper's midi?

Rather than being in the dark, making up our own stories of what the devs think, I wonder if we may infringe upon your generosity and time, and ask for an answer straight from the llama's mouth.

Thank you in advance.
Perhaps we should just chip in and buy Justin a MIDI-only guitar.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:15 PM   #3
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Default And, lest I forget....

...to mention it.

Reaper IS an awesome program, you guys (the devs) are really terrific, and as far as customer service is concerned, no software company I know of, can hold a candle to your response to your customers!

Just to be clear about things.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:54 AM   #4
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Reapers MIDI is what it is and it has steadily gotten a lot better over the time that you mention people being down about it, I don't really think Reapers MIDI is primetime just yet but then so much of Reaper isn't and lets not forget that it has been something of a meteoric rise to where it is right now.

A lot of people are unhappy about the work being done on OSC, but now that they have the backbone of that support in, I would guess that things will go back to normal in terms of generalist updates, But now the generalist updates will have a few lines beginning with OSC.

The MIDI is getting better but because it gets better at the same rate as everything else, it goes somewhat unnoticed, the timing is way better than it previously was, the MIDI editor has way less lag than it used to have and so on, There are a bunch of features missing but much like anything else they will come in time as and when the devs get to them i guess
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:25 AM   #5
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You have to all the way back to July last year to find a changelog with no MIDI progress in it. In fact, looking through all the changelogs you could be forgiven for getting the impression that MIDI is the thing that has got the most attention since about V3.0 onwards, though to be fair 'number of changelog entries' is hardly a scientific representation.

This is what incremental development looks like. Its entirely fair to be dissatisfied with the current state of things, but be careful about extending that to believing that MIDI is necessarily being neglected. On the other hand, you may think "its getting that much attention, but it needs to get more!" ...which is I'm sure entirely valid from your perspective. The danger is, that heads into 'the development I want is more important than the development that others want' territory ...which is unresolvable.

----------------------------------------

REAPER v4.15 - January 15, 2012
MIDI editor: fixed hang when entering grid size of zero

REAPER v4.14 - December 18, 2011
MIDI: improved merging of multiple MIDI sources (glue, receives, record output)
MIDI: looped overdub recording fix for crash bug (issue ID 3807)
MIDI editor: actions to remove trailing (or all) notes of less than a certain length
MIDI editor: fixed odd behavior when option enabled to snap notes to the left

REAPER v4.12 - November 19, 2011
MIDI: fixed sending noteoffs in certain loop instances
MIDI: fixed bug when importing MIDI files with time signature changes not on whole bars

REAPER v4.111 - November 13, 2011
MIDI: fixed sending of excess pitch/note/cc resets on loop
MIDI: never pool MIDI source data when duplicating takes within the same media item
MIDI: display MIDI notes while recording in regular track input mode
MIDI recording: better support for disabling latency compensation
MIDI recording: recording to end of loop extends events to end regardless of latency compensation
MIDI recording: in overdub/replace recording, auto input monitoring controls whether notes are monitored outside of punch regions
MIDI recording: improved note tracking for looped record-input mode
MIDI recording: added latch-replace recording mode
MIDI recording: minor reorganization of track record menu
MIDI recording: in overdub/replace, do not display recorded item until MIDI input is detected, unless recording starts at the start of the loop selection
MIDI recording: better handling of time selection punches (do not extend items outside of the punch area)
MIDI recording: monitoring of MIDI in overdub/replace matches punch behavior in other modes
MIDI editor: fixed triplet/dotted grid display when zoomed out
MIDI editor: vertical drag of bank/program select event scrolls through programs in that bank
MIDI editor: vertical CC edit does not affect selected CC in other lanes
MIDI editor: fixed/optimized some behaviors when using ghost items or file based items
MIDI editor: allow sweep-editing program change and bank select messages just like any other CC
MIDI editor: allow editing velocity for notes that start slightly before the visible edge of the media item
MIDI editor: fixed conflict with some combinations of mouse modifiers for scrub and insert notes
MIDI editor: fixed set time selection to notes in list editor
MIDI editor: reduced flicker after selection change in list editor
MIDI editor: improved undo messages for some actions, fixed zoom one loop interation action

REAPER v4.10 - September 30, 2011
MIDI: use MIDI track name event when importing files
MIDI files: options to automatically snap time signature changes, tempo changes on file import
MIDI editor: switching sources via filter window no longer unhides all other sources
MIDI editor: undo fixes, especially related to list editor
MIDI editor: improved list view default focus, toolbar focus
MIDI editor: note properties fixed reset of combo boxes on multiple note selection
MIDI editor: inline editor marquee fix
MIDI editor: fixed bug when quantizing notes that were drawn in (not painted or recorded)
MIDI editor: fixed context menu doubleness when clicking above piano keys
MIDI editor: support painting notes in drum mode with very small grid
MIDI editor: step recording works when docked

REAPER v4.02 - August 22, 2011
MIDI: fixed stuck notes when looping
MIDI: renaming one pooled take renames all pooled takes
MIDI editor: fixed bad behavior when drawing over existing CC events with snap enabled
MIDI editor: fixed horizontal zoom with mouse cursor center, when using project-synced timebase
MIDI editor: avoid accidental time selections in ruler
MIDI editor: support negative swing quantize
MIDI editor: fixed possible oddness when editing CC with auto-select CC enabled

REAPER v4.01 - August 4, 2011
MIDI editor: fixed crash when undoing all the way back to when the media item was created
MIDI editor: action to select all muted notes
MIDI editor: added actions to select all CC in time selection, in all visible lanes, or all lanes

REAPER v4.0 - August 3, 2011
MIDI editing: Set user-definable scales and chords in the MIDI editor for drawing and editing notes
MIDI editing: Using mouse modifiers, copy/duplicate/paste actions can create pooled (ghosted) in-project MIDI source data
MIDI editing: Editing any pooled MIDI media item affects all media items that share the same pooled data
MIDI editing: Un-pool shared MIDI by gluing the media item or via MIDI source properties dialog
MIDI editing: New MIDI Contents menu for switching MIDI editor between different MIDI media items in the project
MIDI editing: MIDI filter improvements when displaying multiple media items in the same editor
MIDI editing: Many new mouse modifier behaviors to paint notes and chords, edit arpeggios, etc

REAPER v3.78 - August 2, 2011
MIDI: fix for looped MIDI noteoffs, specifically fixing http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3293

REAPER v3.77 - July 22, 2011
***NO MIDI PROGRESS***
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:52 AM   #6
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WT, that is all nice and ok, but the things listed in changelog do not touch on the BIG deficiencies with Reaper's MIDI, and those are general WORKFLOW issues (something like ZOOMING being very erratic, for example), that's the problem. And the deficiencies have been known for a very long time.

And, as a non-exhaustive list, let me quote myself on things that really need improving. Some of these are not small things, but exactly because of that they need to be improved the sooner the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
* Cannot edit multiple clips at once.

* Cannot display event list along with piano roll at the same time.

* Inline editing is a joke.

* No logical editor a la Cubase (face it, it is tons useful, Reaper's filter comes nowhere close)

* No note off editing from piano roll.

* No polyphonic aftertouch editing from piano roll.

* No invert of current note selection (only whole item, as if that's any useful).

* No track-based MIDI editing (see Krueger's videos), dealing with tons of items is not fun at all.

* No easy way to select every other note, or every 4th note of a particular pitch, etc. -> logical editor.

* Zooming issues when opening another MIDI item after closing another one.

* Opening an item with tons of CC lanes can look really ridiculous and completely unworkable. There should be a dedicated vertical scrollbar for CC lanes.

* No predictable MIDI preview in item container in the arrange view.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:25 AM   #7
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* Cannot edit multiple clips at once.
Pleeeeeeeeaaaaaasssseeeee!
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Please check out these MIDI requests: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=103192
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:30 AM   #8
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The Gentleman with the evil dragon is correct. I yield the floor.

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WT, that is all nice and ok, but the things listed in changelog do not touch on the BIG deficiencies with Reaper's MIDI, and those are general WORKFLOW issues (something like ZOOMING being very erratic, for example), that's the problem. And the deficiencies have been known for a very long time.

And, as a non-exhaustive list, let me quote myself on things that really need improving. Some of these are not small things, but exactly because of that they need to be improved the sooner the better.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
You have to all the way back to July last year to find a changelog with no MIDI progress in it. In fact, looking through all the changelogs you could be forgiven for getting the impression that MIDI is the thing that has got the most attention since about V3.0 onwards, though to be fair 'number of changelog entries' is hardly a scientific representation.

This is what incremental development looks like. Its entirely fair to be dissatisfied with the current state of things, but be careful about extending that to believing that MIDI is necessarily being neglected. On the other hand, you may think "its getting that much attention, but it needs to get more!" ...which is I'm sure entirely valid from your perspective. The danger is, that heads into 'the development I want is more important than the development that others want' territory ...which is unresolvable.
I appreciate your defense of Cockos in this regard. I love them too.

But in all fairness, you should discount all lines which are only related to correcting behavior that was buggy or flawed from the very beginning. All you have here is a long list of things the devs got wrong from the start, and for most of these they needed other people to tell them how to get it right. That is perhaps incremental development, but if you're catching up with a world that had MIDI covered before you even started, so you can simply imitate from the state-of-the-art, it's simply catching up too slowly. I'm not saying they aren't working on it, I'm saying I don't think they're going to 'get it' any time soon, since the pattern so far shows otherwise.

I have to go all the way to the bottom of that long list to see exactly *one* useful MIDI-related feature that is not directly related to bug fixes and design flaws (plus a few changes to use that feature, mentioned separately):

----------------------------------------
***ALL REAL MIDI PROGRESS SINCE July 22, 2011:***
REAPER v4.0 - August 3, 2011
MIDI editing: Set user-definable scales and chords in the MIDI editor for drawing and editing notes
MIDI editing: Many new mouse modifier behaviors to paint notes and chords, edit arpeggios, etc
----------------------------------------

If you want to use "move notes up" instead of "transpose", ok, I'll gladly forgive you and even praise you for accommodating users (my best monkeys have a mere 300 words in their vocabularies but sure know how to push buttons ). But if these guys, who probably aren't exactly stupid (to use the understatement of the week) still insist, after quite a few attempts to convince them otherwise already, that it is entirely correct and even desirable behavior to jump out of the current position on a tempo change while playing and using a *musical* timebase, sorry, but then at some point I just have to give up hope that they will ever develop a good feeling for anything related to *music* and music theory, as opposed to digital audio engineering. It's not like these guys aren't smart as hell... it must simply not be their cup of tea.

And the same goes for UX imho. That's why we love you so much, WT!

And while we're at it, I'll add a few to ED's list:

- The mother of all bugs: globally disrespecting the global musical timebase setting;

- Breaking OS features (windows management);

- No note off velocity editing (or was that what you meant ED?);

- No sensible event list editing options (have the devs perhaps ever seen how a spreadsheet works? It's just columns and rows with data, mostly numbers. Much like MIDI sequences, no?);

But I'm the last one to demand exclusive focus on MIDI. I'm not asking my favorite chef to play the piano while I'm eating the delicious diner that he cooked for me either.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:14 AM   #10
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yeah - suspect there are quite a few of us who have been wondering about that aspect of the whole development process, Banned. There does seem to be a lot of misunderstanding of the significance of some of the problems already raised regarding MIDI on the part of the devs. I sincerely hope I am wrong....

But there again whilst I was pretty much forced into dumping Sonar when I just could not get it to play nice with my computer, I never found the Cake way of implementing MIDI that good either.

And in the meantime I am plodding on using 2 programs & sort of hoping for the best at some time in the future.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:21 AM   #11
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It would be nice to see a rethink on some of the approaches to handling MIDI and an evolution toward a more integrated rather than fragmented way of working with MIDI information in general.

I could live with fewer choices but more of a user-friendly ie. "intuitive" MIDI work area.

For instance, I'm writing a drum part right now and the MIDI editor takes priority in the window even when I click the main editor frame in the background. That means I have to either dock or close that MIDI item to get back to the main editor. Then, when I open the groove tool (not a Cockos product but a windowed feature nonetheless) It gets buried behind the MIDI editor even when I use "the pin" to keep it always on top (a necessity when working with an open MIDI item, selecting notes and then applying the groove to it.) This is just the first thing I noticed after reading this thread - a workflow problem.

My general "impression" when I compare it to some of the other DAWs is that Reaper's new MIDI additions have all been very nice but seem somehow disparate rather than unified.

Still, I love the app. and I sing the Cockos National Anthem each morning upon rising.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I agree with Banned in that I also have the impression that our genius programmers are not playing MIDI parts into Reaper in their spare time but banging on real world analog noise makers like drums and guitars. It may not be true, but that is what I imagine as the cause for the lesser focus on some vital MIDI issues. As a guitar player I also feel that keyboards are better played by people wearing crisp white shirts and pleated slacks.


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Old 03-23-2012, 07:39 AM   #12
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Presenting, for the millionth time, the 'Evil Dragon can turn any thread into being about feature requests' effect. Please chap, there's a very good reason not to do that; it suffocates any other discussion. There's no great reason why it should, but it almost always does. I just answered the OP's question. No more, no less. However, this has now turned into a thread about missing features. Yes, they are missing, yes they are requested, no I made no comment either way on that. But please note that once you start talking about feature requests, all talk becomes about feature requests, because feature requests are so much more compelling than the here-today, small but real stuff. If there's a single person alive who doesn't believe that Reaper would be improved by having more Feature Requests actioned, I've never met him. And I'm most certainly not him myself. With me?

---------------------

So, if I may try to drag this back to the one-question-at-a-time original topic:

Q: "(Devs) Do you feel that Reaper's Midi is up to par and needs no further improvement?"

A: Clearly not.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:44 AM   #13
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I also think the OP was expecting an answer from one of the developers - an OpEd, perhaps.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:58 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
And in the meantime I am plodding on using 2 programs & sort of hoping for the best at some time in the future.
Only 2? You lucky b*****d. I wish my life was that simple.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
So, if I may try to drag this back to the one-question-at-a-time original topic:
Q: "(Devs) Do you feel that Reaper's Midi is up to par and needs no further improvement?"
A: Clearly not.
Correction, those are *2* questions. And again you lose bonus points for misspelling MIDI.

Q: "(Devs) Do you feel that Reaper's MIDI is up to par?"
A: Clearly not.

Q: "(Devs) Do you feel that Reaper's MIDI needs no further improvement?"
A: "..."

(User) "Whenever I really care about MIDI, I can always address my need for that elsewhere. Please just do whatever you love doing most, because that's what you're probably best at. So far, you're doing excellent."
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:09 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Banned View Post
But if these guys, who probably aren't exactly stupid (to use the understatement of the week) still insist, after quite a few attempts to convince them otherwise already, that it is entirely correct and even desirable behavior to jump out of the current position on a tempo change while playing and using a *musical* timebase, sorry, but then at some point I just have to give up hope that they will ever develop a good feeling for anything related to *music* and music theory, as opposed to digital audio engineering. It's not like these guys aren't smart as hell... it must simply not be their cup of tea.
Very well said. I can't believe Cockos considers this "normal behavior".

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- No note off velocity editing (or was that what you meant ED?);
Yeah, that's what I meant.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:33 AM   #17
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Wink Please -improve midi

Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
...there are a number of hard core Reaper lovers who constantly write that Reaper's midi is less than easy to use, not user friendly, and just plain unwieldy. They (we) also seem to think that our collective voices just keep getting discounted.

Do you feel that Reaper's Midi is up to par and needs no further improvement? Or, is there a problem with changing Reaper's current midi situation coding wise? Or, are the devs general consensus that we are all just kidding ourselves that there is something "not quite right" with Reaper's midi?

Rather than being in the dark, making up our own stories of what the devs think, I wonder if we may infringe upon your generosity and time, and ask for an answer straight from the llama's mouth.

Thank you in advance.
There are always a lot of folks muddying the water by defending reaper/reaper midi . I love Reaper and for that very reason I will continue to point out the obvious weakness with midi handling/editing. I am happy to see EDs explanation, far better than I could do. I am most familiar with the selecting/midi editing in Sonar and I find it far more logical and user friendly than Reaper. In truth I would have to say I find most every midi editor I have seen easier to use than Reaper. This includes Sequencer Plus (from 20 years ago). I use midi a lot... Please, hear how important midi is to myself and many users. Thank You in advance :-)
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:39 AM   #18
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Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:34 AM   #19
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Red face the past

I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember while the 4.0 alphas were being worked on, they started focusing on midi things (even if it was mostly bug fixes of stuff already there) and a small number of people were like "yay midi love", which followed suit with the non midi users coming out of the shadows and being like "hey not fair - why are you so focused on midi... keep working on the stuff *we* care about please!".

Then, a rather intelligent person may be like "Hey why don't you finish implementing this feature and make it bug free before working on a new feature?", only a few days later to be like "So? Those are only bug fixes they didn't get right in the first place. Why aren't there new features?" (yes it's misquoted I know)

Then people are like "hey Reaper will NEVER EVER be taken seriously if we can't use expensive control surfaces" so they work on osc stuff in a strategic step in that direction and people are like "we don't use this, do something we actually care about!"

The thing is, each issue above is perfectly valid and correct. However, although I don't speak up around here much (okay, never), it does seem like there should be a better way for us (dare I use the term) to constructively criticize. What that better way is, I don't know... but sheesh. Maybe we make a thread and discuss *that* instead or something? I dunno.

I mean some cases like "Don't do that, work on what *I* want" it's pretty clear are unnecessary. But beyond that, how does one discuss short comings and the such without whining, being negative, or at least being negligent of the zillion other areas of Reaper that are being developed and would be complained about if they weren't?
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achild View Post
...[snip]

I mean some cases like "Don't do that, work on what *I* want" it's pretty clear are unnecessary. But beyond that, how does one discuss short comings and the such without whining, being negative, or at least being negligent of the zillion other areas of Reaper that are being developed and would be complained about if they weren't?
Unfortunately, without a physical address for the devs, I could not implement my first strategy, which was to burn a cross on their respective lawns.

On a serious note: I think that this is a complex issue having to do with "WHY" the program was developed and by whom; that it is relatively new in an older DAW market (I used Cubase and Performer in 1993 already) and, that we are seeing unique features in some areas yet non-competitive implementations of features in others, which may have to do with how the program began its coded life, which may make such add-ons impossible or not viable without a complete rewrite. Just guessing, and my opinion only.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:15 AM   #21
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Then people are like "hey Reaper will NEVER EVER be taken seriously if we can't use expensive control surfaces" so they work on osc stuff in a strategic step in that direction and people are like "we don't use this, do something we actually care about!"

The thing is, each issue above is perfectly valid and correct.
Well, at least that one is entirely invalid and incorrect as a matter of verifiable fact. You don't need an expensive control surface to use OSC. In fact, you don't even need a control surface to use OSC.

More generally, you seem to overlook that one can't be both inconsistent and correct at the same time.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:37 AM   #22
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Do you feel that Reaper's Midi is up to par and needs no further improvement?
There are plenty of ways REAPER's MIDI handling can be improved, and we will continue to work on it, along with continuing to work on all of the other ways REAPER can be improved.

Most of the big, specific requests, such as editing multiple MIDI media items at once, would have significant side effects on the way REAPER currently works, and therefore require a lot of planning and work.

Roadmap discussions are a total minefield, though, so I'm sorry that we have to keep developer participation in discussions like this to a minimum.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:39 AM   #23
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Most of the big, specific requests, such as editing multiple MIDI media items at once, would have significant side effects on the way REAPER currently works, and therefore require a lot of planning and work.
As long as Reaper gets there in an intuitive and workflow-efficient way, it's all good, schwa. For this, you just gotta take a look on how it's done in other DAWs that have this part of workflow nailed to the tee, pick up the best ideas and then possibly improve on them. I promise I will make sure to beta test the hell of those prereleases when they start coming out!
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:20 AM   #24
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The only midi things that bother me a lot that I've noticed are

- I hate working with sustain. I want it to be smart and it's not. when I press play after the point where the midi message happened that tells it to sustain, there is no sustain. I wish there was a different kind of sustain setting that told the material to be in sustain mode constantly. like constant sustain automation. is that a thing? is there something like that? does anyone know what I'm talking about?

- what do I do if the last note of the loop is supposed to hold past the loop point?


anyone that can suggest solutions to these problems I would love it if you could share them with me.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:31 PM   #25
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Editing multiple media items on the same track is so huge it's not even funny. I have many times lost my custom coloring of items from ed's color toolbar just because I have to glue the whole song to edit all the drum track at the same time. I can't explain the frustration.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:04 PM   #26
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- I hate working with sustain. I want it to be smart and it's not. when I press play after the point where the midi message happened that tells it to sustain, there is no sustain. I wish there was a different kind of sustain setting that told the material to be in sustain mode constantly. like constant sustain automation. is that a thing? is there something like that? does anyone know what I'm talking about?
Although I hardly ever use sustain, so I don't have experience with the specific issue you describe, it's really a more general problem of correctly seeking the last value for MIDI CC# (etc.). It is similar to the editing multiple items issue: such behavior would require REAPER to 'see' all items on the track simultaneously. If you'd be using just one item per track (i.e. glue everything into one item), then it would probably work as expected.

Btw, it's quite ironic that REAPER does not 'seek' here while it really should, but does 'seek' when it really should *not*, when changing tempo while playing using musical timebase. Perhaps rename and move a bit of code elsewhere... oh, if it would really be just that simple.

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- what do I do if the last note of the loop is supposed to hold past the loop point?
If you can't adjust the loop by moving the loop points to a different place with the same result (they don't have to align to exact measures to make loops with lengths of exact measures - often you can find such a loop point by extending the loop with a copy, then shifting the loop around), you could try to shift the last note forward but delay the MIDI output later in the chain, by using a different MIDI channel for the last note, and only delaying that MIDI channel.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:15 PM   #27
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...AFTERTHOUGHT: I agree with Banned in that I also have the impression that our genius programmers are not playing MIDI parts into Reaper in their spare time but banging on real world analog noise makers like drums and guitars. It may not be true, but that is what I imagine as the cause for the lesser focus on some vital MIDI issues. As a guitar player I also feel that keyboards are better played by people wearing crisp white shirts and pleated slacks.
Hence my suggestion to the devs in another thread that if indeed they’re not "into" MIDI they should add another programmer that is (into MIDI). The devs can't really change who they are (non-heavy MIDI users) but they sure can hire someone who is. That probably would be the most efficient long-term solution to this problem. Remember, "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link"
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:42 PM   #28
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Default Thank you Schwa, for addressing my opening post.

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There are plenty of ways REAPER's MIDI handling can be improved, and we will continue to work on it, along with continuing to work on all of the other ways REAPER can be improved.

Most of the big, specific requests, such as editing multiple MIDI media items at once, would have significant side effects on the way REAPER currently works, and therefore require a lot of planning and work.

Roadmap discussions are a total minefield, though, so I'm sorry that we have to keep developer participation in discussions like this to a minimum.
I do understand how getting too involved in these discussion can just be messy for you devs. This is why I posted my questions as concisely and honestly as I could, facilitating one syllable answers, that would (hopefully) instill confidence in your customers and fans, or at least stop people from going on and on about something that is just not even in the cards.

Am I to understand from your answer that:

1. Yes. We hear what our customers say about Reaper's midi and we are on it.
2. The coding, as such, takes a lot of planning so, implementing say "Evil Dragon's list", will take a while.

I was a little surprised by the, "We don't want to get involved in a discussion with you, our customers." I do understand, though. so I will have to surmise:

3. We don't want to talk about midi with you guys, because it is just frustrating.

Again, without direct word, we are just left with, making reasons up.

I figured a straight question would get a straight answer. I am sure you guys did the best you could from your point of view.

Thank you for addressing my OP.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:59 PM   #29
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WT, that is all nice and ok, but the things listed in changelog do not touch on the BIG deficiencies with Reaper's MIDI, and those are general WORKFLOW issues (something like ZOOMING being very erratic, for example), that's the problem. And the deficiencies have been known for a very long time.

And, as a non-exhaustive list, let me quote myself on things that really need improving. Some of these are not small things, but exactly because of that they need to be improved the sooner the better.
agree 100%

I thought this was fixed, but apparently not, so after reading a few threads about people using othe DAWs just for midi editing I just happen to have Sonar 8.5.3 still installed so thought I would try exporting from Reaper them to Sonar, then back to Reaper after editing, wow thought I had imported the wrong .mid file at first, what a mess, nothing lines up.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:00 PM   #30
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I was a little surprised by the, "We don't want to get involved in a discussion with you, our customers." I do understand, though. so I will have to surmise:

3. We don't want to talk about midi with you guys, because it is just frustrating.

Again, without direct word, we are just left with, making reasons up.
My *guess* is slightly different: "we listen carefully to what you say, but we'd much rather surprise you than disappoint any of you."

The key word with regard to what exactly would only be frustrating is not "MIDI" but "roadmap".
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #31
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As long as Reaper gets there in an intuitive and workflow-efficient way, it's all good, schwa. For this, you just gotta take a look on how it's done in other DAWs that have this part of workflow nailed to the tee, pick up the best ideas and then possibly improve on them.
same here - thanks for the ever-increasing midi support past, present, & future.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:13 PM   #32
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3. We don't want to talk about midi with you guys, because it is just frustrating.
That's not at all what I meant. But it does illustrate why any discussion of a roadmap is a minefield

We're happy to talk about MIDI or any feature requests. But we can't get involved in a roadmap discussion.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:16 PM   #33
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As long as Reaper gets there in an intuitive and workflow-efficient way, it's all good, schwa. For this, you just gotta take a look on how it's done in other DAWs that have this part of workflow nailed to the tee, pick up the best ideas and then possibly improve on them. I promise I will make sure to beta test the hell of those prereleases when they start coming out!
Yes and a BIG thanks to the Devs here as well, this again is what makes Reaper such a great Program, the Devs are definitely listening....
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:06 PM   #34
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That's not at all what I meant. But it does illustrate why any discussion of a roadmap is a minefield

We're happy to talk about MIDI or any feature requests. But we can't get involved in a roadmap discussion.
OK, thank you for the clarification.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:13 PM   #35
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That's not at all what I meant. But it does illustrate why any discussion of a roadmap is a minefield

We're happy to talk about MIDI or any feature requests. But we can't get involved in a roadmap discussion.
I guess I guessed right then.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:19 PM   #36
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Default Really...

...I do not use the term roadmap discussion. I assume you are talking about any discussion about the "future plans" for Reaper's midi. Is that correct?
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:37 PM   #37
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...I do not use the term roadmap discussion. I assume you are talking about any discussion about the "future plans" for Reaper's midi. Is that correct?
That is how I understand it, and what I meant when I used the term above. It has come up more often around here.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #38
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That is how I understand it, and what I meant when I used the term above. It has come up more often around here.
OK, yes. Thank you.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:07 PM   #39
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Only 2? You lucky b*****d. I wish my life was that simple.
Heh Heh - well one of them works perfectly and the other one is Reaper, which will hopefully catch up in terms of utility for MIDI sequencing eventually.

I am of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" school when it comes to software.
I had been on Sonar since version 3 & am running the same BPP setup I had in the mid nineties.
Including the OS on the Amiga 1200, although I have actually BOUGHT all the OS upgrades, just never needed the extra functionality, since it was mostly relating to internet on the Amiga, which I never saw the point of.
I mean, I have a household appliance for that. (a PC)
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:09 PM   #40
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There are plenty of ways REAPER's MIDI handling can be improved, and we will continue to work on it, along with continuing to work on all of the other ways REAPER can be improved.

Most of the big, specific requests, such as editing multiple MIDI media items at once, would have significant side effects on the way REAPER currently works, and therefore require a lot of planning and work.

Roadmap discussions are a total minefield, though, so I'm sorry that we have to keep developer participation in discussions like this to a minimum.
Thanks for the reassuring words - at least we can now bop along as we are safe in the knowledge that eventually stuff WILL get done.

Ivan "Job" SC
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