Old 02-28-2012, 02:47 AM   #1
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Default OSC practical usage

I've seen a lot of updates with OSC support recently. Could anybody tell me what is the practical benefit of this feature? What is the real world situations when the OSC can improve the workflow? i really would like to understand that because from what i've heard so far its only like for geek fun. Why would i have to remote control my DAW? in what situations? Ok, i do understand it can be useful with software like Ableton Live designed to perform on stage but why do DAW need a remote control is a mystery to me...

Thanks

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Old 02-28-2012, 04:29 AM   #2
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You should be asking this in the Pre-Release forum as this isn't yet official.

However It's not about 'Remote' it's about CONTROL.

For Example During Mixdown, multiple banks of Faders on your OSC client, FX parameter Control, Smooth fader riding and Automation, How many faders can your adjust at a time with your mouse? 1! With OSC you can adjust as many as you can fit onto your Multi-touch device. This also brings higher Resolution than current Midi Control surfaces can support. All of which are better than Reaching for a Mouse.

It's also been hinted at that OSC will form the middle layer for better control surface compatibility in reapers future.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:14 AM   #3
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You should be asking this in the Pre-Release forum as this isn't yet official.
Well its not about Reaper in particular, but mostly general question about OSC feature itself
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:50 AM   #4
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For Example During Mixdown, multiple banks of Faders on your OSC client, FX parameter Control, Smooth fader riding and Automation, How many faders can your adjust at a time with your mouse? 1! With OSC you can adjust as many as you can fit onto your Multi-touch device. This also brings higher Resolution than current Midi Control surfaces can support. All of which are better than Reaching for a Mouse.

It's also been hinted at that OSC will form the middle layer for better control surface compatibility in reapers future.
Why don't make it by automation instead?
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:21 PM   #5
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I'm Sorry you don't seem to get this. What has Automation got to do with Control Surface support, aside from the obvious pro of being able to write Automation by using an OSC control Surface instead of a mouse.
If you like using a mouse to mix, continue to do so and ignore the OSC stuff
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:28 PM   #6
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Please don't get me wrong I just really want to understand the benefits of it in studio environment
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:29 PM   #7
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Please don't get me wrong I just really want to understand the benefits of it in studio environment
No Problem watch Subz just posted Video here http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=97866
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Viente View Post
I've seen a lot of updates with OSC support recently. Could anybody tell me what is the practical benefit of this feature? What is the real world situations when the OSC can improve the workflow? i really would like to understand that because from what i've heard so far its only like for geek fun. Why would i have to remote control my DAW? in what situations? Ok, i do understand it can be useful with software like Ableton Live designed to perform on stage but why do DAW need a remote control is a mystery to me...

Thanks
What's the use of MIDI? Why play keys remotely when you can just draw notes with your mouse? Geek fun eh ...
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:40 PM   #9
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sweet higher resolution data
limitations should be based on the resolution at which a microprocessor can read sensors, not the language of digital music. 127 is usable and great, but extremely low resolution.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:51 PM   #10
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I think asking if it "practical" is a good question. If you watch any number of videos on YouTube with any one of the myriad of implementations now you will see two things:

1) Most people use one finger
2) Most people use it like an extended desktop

Of the videos where I saw multiple fingers used, I saw fingers sliding off of the controllers very easily and therefore multiple attempts. In terms of using a mouse, I think it is still useful because we work in a linear way: one track at a time. And if we setup the mixing automation for our songs, what do we need to use multiple sliders for?

It's just a shiny new toy to me. We've had touch screens for many years. If they were so important as an interface to a DAW, why didn't we use them before? They become quite dirty with our finger grunge, and even more inaccurate, no?

My question is what people will do when the iPad 3 (and above) will negate the need for an external DAW? Will they really switch totally to an iPad for production?
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:00 PM   #11
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Well, i can't imagine controlling a large project with a lot of tracks and plugins with a small controller faster and comfortable(!) than a mouse (unfortunately)
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:38 PM   #12
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1) Most people use one finger
That goes for most people I know who have MIDI keyboards too. And two fingers for text keyboards (still not ten).
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If they were so important as an interface to a DAW, why didn't we use them before?
Simple: lack of decent support.

I do agree with the notion that most people, most of the time will not use most of their tools and instruments very efficiently. But that does not mean they should be 'dumbed down' by design. One could even argue the contrary position: much like every piano should ideally be built for virtuoso performances, so should a DAW be designed. Please don't think of a DAW (and hence, control of it) only in terms of an analogy to a mixer - it's also where all of our virtual instruments *live*, not only at recording time. A DAW is an entire studio, including a place to play and to perform.

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Well, i can't imagine controlling a large project with a lot of tracks and plugins with a small controller faster and comfortable(!) than a mouse (unfortunately)
At the same time, the drummer may want to adjust the submix he's receiving in his earphones from the same DAW you're controlling, without distracting you from your mousing activities, and without even getting up, using an iPhone in his pocket or iPad in front of him. Real world enough?
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:12 PM   #13
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Yeah, good stuff, Banned. I don't have an iPad, what's the range of these things?

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:31 PM   #14
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for me its the visual (eg a dial) and data feedback (values) of parameters that you're controlling, and having smooth precise control over them. and deciding yourself what feedback you want and how its displayed.

another vid to add to the list is in subz thread previously mentioned. (see my post in it) http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=97866
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:49 PM   #15
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Yeah, good stuff, Banned. I don't have an iPad, what's the range of these things?

ns
The range of possibilities is sheer endless. What *do* you have? Probably there's something useful you can already do with what you already have (even if only the computer you're running REAPER on). With a MIDI CC# controller or keyboard you can already do lots of interesting stuff by using something in-between to translate OSC <--> MIDI (cf. the simple example of MIDI remote control feedback using Pure data I posted elsewhere on this forum). Even without feedback, there are plenty of interesting things one can do. For example, I can now use a MIDI CC# controller linked to ReaEQ frequencies, using a scaling that does not suck; it's just a matter of inserting a lookup table with 128 (imho) better values (Cockos, feel free to ask for the improved series of values. No license fees. ).

And there are much cheaper devices than iPads to be used for plain fun. I love using RealPlay PuzzleSperes (via junXion), which have great accelerometers and wifi connectivity, and can typically be picked up for less than any 'official' cable for an iPad.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:18 PM   #16
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Simple: lack of decent support.
I meant using touch screens in general, not OSC implementation and integrated use. I have several touch screens and tablet PCs that I thought I would use for Reaktor control (for example), and I ultimately found it to be impractical.

But let's face it...I would rather have OSC in Reaper than not.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:48 PM   #17
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The range of possibilities is sheer endless.
Ha!! Sorry, I meant how far from the DAW computer can you operate the iPad. Range as in distance. I can see myself getting an iPad or some such device for fun but also to being able to use it for long range DAW control. It would mean I don't have to be right next to the ' pooter screen and keyboard to record.

Thanks for the in-depth explanations.

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Old 02-28-2012, 03:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
what do we need to use multiple sliders for?
using multiple sliders at the same time is GREAT!!!! (for proof of concept youtube videos)
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:10 PM   #19
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I meant using touch screens in general [...].
Yes, I see. And I agree it is easy to overestimate the usefulness of (multi) touch screens. Let me try to make the point a bit differently. A drummer using both feet and both hands for different tasks simultaneously isn't the best analogy for general day to day use. Still, we'd probably become *very* frustrated if our MIDI or text keyboards would refuse to listen to our key presses until we released the previous one, because that would dumb down even our (arguably very inefficient, yet daily used) methods for typing text or playing keys with two fingers. That makes multi-touch useful; you'd miss it if it isn't there even if you only do one thing at a time, most of the time.

A different aspect is that touch screens usually lack decent tactile feedback. For this reason I still prefer physical knobs, buttons and sliders for many purposes. In contrast, when you really need visual feedback while you are controlling something, (multi)touch screens are excellent.

Also, as long as you have enough sensors that don't need to be touched at all (ultrasound, infrared light, accelerometers, etc.), you may become quite bored and tired with having to touch stuff at all, whether it's a mouse, keyboard or multitouch screen.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:10 PM   #20
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Ha!! Sorry, I meant how far from the DAW computer can you operate the iPad. Range as in distance.
How far does TCP/IP reach?
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:17 PM   #21
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How far does TCP/IP reach?
Perfect, thanks!!

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Old 02-29-2012, 01:48 AM   #22
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OSC is happening in Reaper it is as simple as that, just let em get on with it.
Usefulness to most people is indeed nil right now, but may well be useful in the future, and if you need it it will be there.

Touchscreens are indeed complete and utter garbage right now for DAW control, but it is getting better.

1 finger or 10, the most ridiculous argument around right now in favour of replacing the mouse, most people who are used to using a mouse will indeed do anything that somebody who uses a controller, just as fast, end of story, it is ALL just a matter of taste
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:50 AM   #23
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I have yet to see a video that shows me the practical use of OSC and tablets other than someone tinkering with one finger or trying to impress me with eye-candy. Personally, I think this is something that studios are using to make their customers think they're really hip. I don't buy it.

I need OSC like I need 3D TV...it's kinda cool, but not necessary. I also think that much of the frenzy is coming from the people who are pushing it (i.e. developers). I've seen this in many different forms now (and on many different websites) and it is just another approach of marketing and hype to me.

If you keep asking yourself "what do I need this for?" you probably don't need it. If you want to easily create something that does OSC to experiment with, you can download my IDE (Run Time Editor 3) for free and experiment to your hearts delight. You can also try the Reaper HTML stuff too, but I think you will find that it too, is interesting, but quite unnecessary.

In terms of control protocols for devices (i.e. mixers, HID, etc.) we have TCP and UDP (wired and wireless) and can use simple socket communications with open protocols; there is no good reason to tie things specifically to OSC, especially when the implementation becomes so custom anyway. Although ReaOSC does have a nice ring to it.

One last thing: please stop with the tablet fanaticism. I like my 28" monitors, multi-core powerhouse desktops and laptops with mouse and keyboard, etc. but I don't go screaming about the technology to others. So what if the mouse is "old"...so is the steering wheel in my car; they are both still great and useful (and practical) inventions. By the way, the touch screen has been around for quite a while too.

If tablets had tactile sensations (i.e. haptics) and they gave them away for free (well, maybe free) I wouldn't want to use it for controlling Reaper, softsynths, mixers, etc. Even if it is cool to control Reaper from the head, I don't need it. Do you know how dirty that screen is?

I will end with "it's all good" and try to keep the negativity to a minimum in the future.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:31 PM   #24
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using multiple sliders at the same time is GREAT!!!! (for proof of concept youtube videos)
And that is why I have a couple of Nanokontrols and others have things like Mackie MCU, etc.

(sorry not meaning to act like a Luddite, but there are already plenty of good hardware alternatives to using a mobile phone as a key part of your studio)
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:41 PM   #25
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practical uses?

how making your own custom control surface so you can sit behind a drumset and track every drum part without ever having to get up and run to the computer?

I plan on using it for just a bunch of big action buttons, like an external toolbar. That way, I'll be forced to use advanced features without having to remember what they are. yes, I could make toolbar buttons, but i often forget what they do when the action has a long name and there's no good image to represent what it does.

sidenote:
does anyone know if there is any OSC hardware out there? as in, not a touchscreen device app, but actual physical buttons/knobs/faders with OSC output? I know there is voodoo magic that can make a lot of midi hardware work with osc, but I'm wondering about native support on hardware devices.

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Old 03-06-2012, 03:48 PM   #26
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does anyone know if there is any OSC hardware out there? as in, not a touchscreen device app, but actual physical buttons/knobs/faders with OSC output?
That's exactly what I was going to ask too. If one would want a real controller like a Nucleus, or, more realistically, something like a Novation Zero or something, does OSC support do anything useful?
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:53 PM   #27
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That's exactly what I was going to ask too. If one would want a real controller like a Nucleus, or, more realistically, something like a Novation Zero or something, does OSC support do anything useful?
I think osc is a bit ahead of its time. there's this:
http://experimentalistsanonymous.com/ooscc/index.html
and this:
http://monome.org/devices

I still support OSC, but let me throw some gas on the fire, just for fun:
http://www.midi.org/aboutmidi/midi-osc.ph
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:58 PM   #28
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wiki he say:
Some examples of hardware with OSC implementations:

AlphaSphere
Audiocubes
Kiss-Box
uOSC
Lemur Input Device
Make Controller
MIDIbox
Milkymist One
Monome 40h
OMFootCtrl


also - bear in mind translating from your regular midi hardware to osc and back is going to be a shed load easier and will be in essence like having control surface support for all hardware by tweaking a config file.

alot of blinkers on in this thread, it'll be a good thing, don't worry.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:58 PM   #29
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and the water on the gas, or gas on the gas (depending on your perspective):

http://opensoundcontrol.org/files/OSC-Demo.pdf
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:03 PM   #30
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wiki he say:
Some examples of hardware with OSC implementations:

AlphaSphere
Audiocubes
Kiss-Box
uOSC
Lemur Input Device
Make Controller
MIDIbox
Milkymist One
Monome 40h
OMFootCtrl


also - bear in mind translating from your regular midi hardware to osc and back is going to be a shed load easier and will be in essence like having control surface support for all hardware by tweaking a config file.

alot of blinkers on in this thread, it'll be a good thing, don't worry.
find me websites for those. I tired. only a few can I track down the actual hardware. a lot of them look like science projects more than usable hardware. mononome and ooscc are the only things that look like something I could pull out of the box and use to make music with. actually just the mononome because the ooscc isn't in production yet.

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:10 PM   #31
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find me websites for those. I tired. only a few can I track down the actual hardware. a lot of them look like science projects more than usable hardware.
no do your own googling! i was just answering the q, i've since discoverd as you have, that some of those listed are duff, still, the amount of software using it, and how easy it is to knock up your own hardware, plus the fact that Touchscreens CAN BE USEFUL (shocker) plus the ease of translation from midi>OSC>midi means the future is easily controllable imo.

basically reaper now tells the world alot more about what its up to than before with OSC. this is a good thing. how we tap into that data is upto us.

for example knowing/showing what the last touched parameter is, what its value is and what track and fx plug hosts it, was impossible before, now it is.

thats good.

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:12 PM   #32
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no do your own googling! i was just answering the q, i've since discoverd as you have, that some of those listed are duff, still, the amount of software using it, and how easy it is to knock up your own hardware, plus the fact that Touchscreens CAN BE USEFUL (shocker) means the future is easily controllable imo.
I'm not disagreeing. I looked for every one. missing links, DIY, and simply an idea on a website is all I found besides the mononome which isn't exclusively osc anyway.


AlphaSphere - useless hipster art project
audiocubes - live performance toy at best
kiss-box - all I see are midi devices
uOSC - not really product and nearly not even a DIY project.
lemur - oboslete, basically an ipad & they have lemur for ipad.
make controller - website is down
midibox - i don't know what this is. some guys showing off their DIY?
Milkymist One - cool, but it's for video
Monome - the only practical OSC device in existence? it's sure priced like the only one in existence.
OMFootCtrl - looks like a valid DIY project. Not really interested in DIY unless I can have motorized faders and infinite LED knobs.

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:31 PM   #33
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I have yet to see a video that shows me the practical use of OSC and tablets [...]

One last thing: please stop with the tablet fanaticism.
Fair point. While I can think of many applications using tablets of great practical use (to me, at least), I totally agree that one should not equate OSC with a particular interface such as touch screens, or smart phones.

But then, why don't you just ask for a video showing the practical usage of OSC, period? To me it looks like you are critical about the usefulness of using tablets / touch screens, but I don't see how that relates to OSC per se. I can agree that the usefulness of touch screens is easily overestimated, up to a point at least, but please leave OSC out of the criticism then; there is nothing about OSC implying that it can only be used for tablets, or that the tablets are the ideal devices to use it for. The exact same objections would apply if those tablets / applications used MIDI instead of OSC, but somehow I don't think you'd be saying MIDI has no practical use?

Also, you easily overlook all the other sensors that tablet / smartphone devices have. I'll admit that it's more a fun hack than a generally useful tool, but here's one example where an OSC client on my iPhone (i.e. a little tablet) provided the optimal solution for my little practical problem: I happen to dislike controlling wah wah effects (e.g. in Amplitube) with sliders or rotary knobs, keyboard aftertouch or such - it simply has to be a pedal form factor before this monkey likes to play with it. So I put an iPhone running an OSC client in my shoe, which sent the value of (one axis of) the accelerometer to the computer over WiFi or Bluetooth. Mission accomplished, job done. The only alternative would have been a real pedal, easy and cheap enough to buy or make - but as I already had an iPhone (and used only free software), I much preferred not having to go out the door and spend money on a one-trick-pony device that I wouldn't want to carry around at all times anyway.

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By the way, the touch screen has been around for quite a while too.
Yes, I think people have noticed they've been on e.g. ATMs for quite a while too. It is however only since iPhone OS 1.x that the world has seen a decent operating system with a rich and mature development toolchain that facilitates multi-touch screens, so that everyone can easily build applications using them.

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Originally Posted by johnrule View Post
In terms of control protocols for devices (i.e. mixers, HID, etc.) we have TCP and UDP (wired and wireless) and can use simple socket communications with open protocols; there is no good reason to tie things specifically to OSC, especially when the implementation becomes so custom anyway.
TCP / UDP are not control protocols, they're transmission protocols. OSC is situated on a higher layer, and typically does use TCP / UDP on the lower layers - as such they can not be a substitute for OSC, merely a complement. The layering means that they are not tied together at all.

A good reason to use OSC is that it is not tied to any implementation whatsoever, so that it can be customized in the first place. Of course, any custom protocol could be used. But OSC is an open protocol (and I don't know of any other *open* protocol for control of musical instruments that can simply be layered on top of TCP / UDP, but I'm interested to hear about any).

If you mean to say REAPER features should not be tied (exclusively) to OSC, that's quite something else, and I would agree completely. Deciding what technologies (including protocols) to use requires more of a case-by-case, feature-by-feature analysis. And then there may be good reasons to use OSC exclusively for some cases, not at all for others (perhaps the piano roll), and in conjunction with other protocols (e.g. feedback should probably best be implemented using both OSC and MIDI, eventually).

For HID devices, it is not uncommon at all to use applications like Pure data, Max/MSP, junXion etc. to translate their output to OSC. Would you say that you never saw the practical use of OSC in the entire context of HID devices?
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:34 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by pixeltarian View Post
[...] does anyone know if there is any OSC hardware out there? as in, not a touchscreen device app, but actual physical buttons/knobs/faders with OSC output? I know there is voodoo magic that can make a lot of midi hardware work with osc, but I'm wondering about native support on hardware devices.
Look for Arduino and Sparkfun for DIY hardware, use with e.g. Pure data for OSC/MIDI.

Native supported OSC hardware is indeed far between.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:40 PM   #35
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indeed pixel'. looking at it the other way is that the guys that make the shiny nicest music/daw control surfaces have had no reason yet to make an osc compatible unit, until the likes of logic supported it, and now reaper and others.

plus realistically they'd have to completely redesign them OSC specifically to cater for the increased capabilities/information/feedback available. eg - large display(s) to show all the data about the fx, instruments, item properties etc. led encoders everywhere if you're cheap.

basically we're looking at something like a bcr2000 mated with a bcf2000 and (or mcu etc.) combined with a large tablet or a number of small screens as a display, including touchscreen 'areas'. someone will do it soon.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:42 PM   #36
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[...] someone will do it soon.
No, someone is doing it now. (although I don't have that BCF-2000 yet)
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:45 PM   #37
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i'm sure! but in one box?

edit: modular seems the more likely route though - tablets are easy/easier to come by, as are smartphones, motorized fader units are avail, button pads, led buttons, encoders, sensors etc - chuck them all together, and do anything.

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Old 03-06-2012, 05:08 PM   #38
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What do you think about programming the hundreds of buttons of a synth's interface with a touchscreen rather than a mouse? Seems so much better to me:
Do it with the mouse: Take the mouse-find the cursor on your screen-move the cursor-click and drag precisely. Easy, of course, but it takes a tiny bit more concentration than:
Do it with a touchscreen: Put your finger on the right value.

To me, if you do it 200 times in a row, it makes a HUGE difference. BUt I have yet to try it. Show me I'm wrong and you'll make me save money, as I'm thinking about ordering a 23 touchscreen very soon
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:10 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Banned View Post
Look for Arduino and Sparkfun for DIY hardware, use with e.g. Pure data for OSC/MIDI.

Native supported OSC hardware is indeed far between.
but I have no clue how to program.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:12 PM   #40
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What do you think about programming the hundreds of buttons of a synth's interface with a touchscreen rather than a mouse? Seems so much better to me:
Do it with the mouse: Take the mouse-find the cursor on your screen-move the cursor-click and drag precisely. Easy, of course, but it takes a tiny bit more concentration than:
Do it with a touchscreen: Put your finger on the right value.

To me, if you do it 200 times in a row, it makes a HUGE difference. BUt I have yet to try it. Show me I'm wrong and you'll make me save money, as I'm thinking about ordering a 23 touchscreen very soon
I often think to solve the "fat fingers" problem one would need a 48" monitor. you'd also need the daw to enlarge everything so you could still run a high resolution without making the buttons you need to push teeny tiny.
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