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Old 02-21-2012, 10:15 AM   #41
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Before jumping on the OSC wagon, I would like to see a correct midi control mapping implementation in Reaper. See for one basic problem http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=93278 which is the simple task of inverting a bypass state. This is not possible in Reaper currently, how sad?
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:55 AM   #42
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Before jumping on the OSC wagon, I would like to see a correct midi control mapping implementation in Reaper. See for one basic problem http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=93278 which is the simple task of inverting a bypass state. This is not possible in Reaper currently, how sad?
You can, just use Jesusonic. While I do agree we need a better MIDI control implementation, since the entire music world speaks MIDI, OSC support does solve some problems in the meantime, and has some inherent advantages too. But feel free to just wait. You can always hop on later.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:59 PM   #43
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You can, just use Jesusonic.
No, you can not, not with Jesusonic.
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:56 PM   #44
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The actions seems to works here... I just added $1 to the end of action trigger (send /action/41743 $1) and it works. (pre18)
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:58 PM   #45
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No, you can not, not with Jesusonic.
[EDIT:] Oh, I see what you mean, toggling is not your problem, nor is inverting, but knowing about the state (i.e. parameter feedback rather than mapping).

Now, whenever you're ready to try OSC, this is your magic line:
Code:
FX_BYPASS_TOGGLE /fx/@/bypasstoggle /track/@/fx/@/bypasstoggle
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:59 PM   #46
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The actions seems to works here... I just added $1 to the end of action trigger (send /action/41743 $1) and it works. (pre18)
Awesome! Still waiting for pre19 to download here, can't wait to check it out.

[added after installing pre19:]

Hmm, I'm surprised it needs something after the /action/41743 bit. Kudos for finding out, I could have been scratching my head over that one quite I while.

However, $1 gives me "out of range" errors in the Pd console, so is probably not the best solution. I'm using 0 now, which seems to get rid of those.

Indeed, with pre19 and this minor modification, the patch now seems to work much better with some of the bugs eliminated, as I had hoped. 'Focused FX' mode seems to work pretty well now. But there still seem to be a few problems with it as well. In 'Track/Slot' mode, I don't seem to get the effect name and effect parameter names displayed for effects other than the first slot of the master track (at first, I thought it was because of NUM_FX_PARAMS set to 16, but that does not seem to affect it). Enough material for a fresh round of bug hunting and patch sanitization anyway.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:07 PM   #47
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I have a couple of problems with pre19.
Feedback loop with focused fx, and one switch that worked with pre18 dont work now. (vol/pan switch - after switching the bcr dont refresh knobs states)

Probably the problem is my patch... but it started to be exactly what I needed, and everything worked well (except the focfx)
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:32 PM   #48
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[EDIT:] Oh, I see what you mean, toggling is not your problem, nor is inverting, but knowing about the state
No, the point is inverting a bypass state WITHOUT having to know its current state. Whatever its state is NOW, which I do not care and do not want to know, but it should invert. This is what I want. For telling to invert something you do not need to know what is there, this is the beautiness of inverting. Otherwise I can tell always exactly what I want.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:52 AM   #49
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No, the point is inverting a bypass state WITHOUT having to know its current state. Whatever its state is NOW, which I do not care and do not want to know, but it should invert. This is what I want. For telling to invert something you do not need to know what is there, this is the beautiness of inverting. Otherwise I can tell always exactly what I want.
Well, ok, the user doesn't have to know it - but the system still somehow has to be aware of the parameter state to be able to change it; when that awareness is propagated to the remote controller, I'd call it parameter feedback; when it isn't, I'd call it a 'relative' control mode (as opposed to 'absolute'), since that description is a much more general description of the specific problems of binary parameters, or even more specific problem of one specific type of binary parameter (such as plugin bypass state). Does that make enough sense?

Anyway, let's continue discussing complaints / FRs about remote MIDI controller support in general elsewhere (I suspect we're broadly in agreement over such issues), and keep this thread focused on the workarounds that OSC support can provide. Would you like me to help you solve your problem using OSC? (It may also make more sense to discuss the scenario where feedback is not required in another thread)
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:58 AM   #50
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I have a couple of problems with pre19.
Feedback loop with focused fx, and one switch that worked with pre18 dont work now. (vol/pan switch - after switching the bcr dont refresh knobs states)

Probably the problem is my patch... but it started to be exactly what I needed, and everything worked well (except the focfx)
I haven't yet tested pre19 very well myself... But I'd be happy to have a look and see if I can help, just post it here, or send it to me (PM for details) if you don't want to discuss it publicly.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:37 AM   #51
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Would you like me to help you solve your problem using OSC?
Yes, I can use also OSC, IF it is sure that it can be done via OSC, with or without feedback, I do not care, as my midi controller has no elements for visualizing this feedback data like LEDs or a display.

Regarding the relative mode, there are already three versions in Reaper, but did you try if any of those does what I want? Any manual about those relative modes does not exist anyway.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:50 AM   #52
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Yes, I can use also OSC, IF it is sure that it can be done via OSC, with or without feedback, I do not care, as my midi controller has no elements for visualizing this feedback data like LEDs or a display.
Here you go (click to download Pd toggle example patch):



Set up with MIDI CC#65 to toggle FX bypass state for focused effect.
If you use e.g. MIDI CC#1, change [ctlin 65 1] to [ctlin 1 1]
(the last 1 selects the input port, and can also be left out to listen to all enabled input ports).
If your controller sends e.g. a value of 1 when clicked, change the [select 127] to [select 1].

Set up a OSC config in REAPER including the following line (it is also in the default config file):
Code:
FOCUSED_FX_BYPASS_TOGGLE /focfx/bypasstoggle
Set up the remote control config in REAPER to send messages to Pd (as in examples above), select MIDI input port(s) in Pure data, and you should be good to go.

There's also a simple OSC monitor (just to see what REAPER can do, no OSC messages from REAPER required) and MIDI CC# monitor (to verify you have incoming MIDI CC#) for convenience.

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Regarding the relative mode, there are already three versions in Reaper, but did you try if any of those does what I want? Any manual about those relative modes does not exist anyway.
Did you try?

I'd figure they are not specific to REAPER, and should be documented well enough elsewhere.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:58 AM   #53
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I want to toggle bypass using note events, not cc.

Yes, I tried those relative modes. In the interpretation of NOTE EVENTS regarding toggling there are not enough options in Reaper. What my requirements are I described already in my previous link discussion. Using velocity information as ESSENTIAL criteria for note does not make much sense in my opinion. Usually no human has perfect sensors in their fingers so they can hit notes resulting in the velocity they wanted. So the solution is offering another option where you can toggle with ANY NOTE with velocity > 0. This is not possible.

CC is good for a range of values, but not for toggling. Notes are perfect for toggling.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:14 AM   #54
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I want to toggle bypass using note events, not cc.

Yes, I tried those relative modes. In the interpretation of NOTE EVENTS regarding toggling there are not enough options in Reaper. What my requirements are I described already in my previous link discussion. Using velocity information as ESSENTIAL criteria for note does not make much sense in my opinion. Usually no human has perfect sensors in their fingers so they can hit notes resulting in the velocity they wanted. So the solution is offering another option where you can toggle with ANY NOTE with velocity > 0. This is not possible.

CC is good for a range of values, but not for toggling. Notes are perfect for toggling.
I disagree with your analysis of the usefulness of note velocities. Unlike you, I'm not assuming only human fingers can trigger MIDI notes. And limits to human sensitivity are not a reason to just do away with sensitivity completely, as you seem to imply.

Feel free to change the patch, it is easy enough to adjust for any/all notes with whatever velocity thresholds you'd like. Whatever you have been discussing elsewhere, I'd bet that it is all perfectly possible, and even easy to do. If you don't want to be helped, fine. But then please take your bitching elsewhere, since it obviously has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:18 AM   #55
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Nobody implies here anything, just having options is the way, as Reaper offers everywhere, thousands of options, but not in the midi mapping world, that's all.

The important point to understand here is using the SAME NOTE EVENT to toggle a bypass state, so same pitch, same velocity, but toggling among the two possible states. This is not possible. Now you have to use two different velocity values to toggle, but not always the same. Using two velocity values to toggle has the disadvantage that you need to know in which state you are. This is the whole point. We do not want to care in which state we are, just toggling into the inversion state, no matter where we are.

Last edited by TonE; 02-22-2012 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:20 AM   #56
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Nobody implies here anything, just having options is the way, as Reaper offers everywhere, thousands of options, but not in the midi mapping world, that's all.
Which is why OSC is so exciting. It allows us to connect REAPER to applications that are much more specialized in the related but distinct area of data flow, such as Pd and Max (where there are also a few overlaps like DSP). With all due respect, I'm not looking at Cockos for all my data flow requirements, including mapping, scaling, etc. of MIDI - I rather want REAPER's functionality exposed in such a way so that I can use how it suits me best. Much as I am not looking at Cockos to provide the best soft synth or effects, I do love to get some good stuff included, but REAPER should just enable me to plug in whatever I think is best. And imho one of strongest points of Cockos / REAPER is providing great infrastructure for customization and community efforts, so we can all roll our own stuff the way we want to. Modularity is the key word if you really want options.

Like many users here, I may have some pretty strong opinions about how I want my stuff to work for me. Which is exactly why I have been asking for OSC support, so I can roll my own ideal setup. Now we're finally getting it, I'm very happy. Maybe you should be too, since you seem to have similarly strong opinions about how you want you stuff to work for you.

In fact, now we are getting awesome OSC support, and likely more to come in the future (e.g. OSC sequencing), I only remain interested in improvements to MIDI remote control because that guarantees broad compatibility with devices and applications. MIDI is definitely not my preferred protocol for remote control any more (nor for interaction between music applications) - it is awesome for playing notes, but not for controlling parameters at high resolutions, and connecting everything to everything in today's networked world.

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The important point to understand here is using the SAME NOTE EVENT to toggle a bypass state, so same pitch, same velocity, but toggling among the two possible states. This is not possible. Now you have to use two different velocity values to toggle, but not always the same. Using two velocity values to toggle has the disadvantage that you need to know in which state you are. This is the whole point. We do not want to care in which state we are, just toggling into the inversion state, no matter where we are.
It is possible. In fact, the 'hardest' part of the example patch was making sure it does distinguish between different values (which is more common). Just remove the [select 127] (and reconnect), and the toggle message will be sent for everything banging the toggle button. In fact, you can then also use a [bang] instead of a [toggle] and bang the message with note-ons. If you use notes, you'll find out that it's more trouble keeping a note-on together with its velocity than ignoring it. Seriously, you're barking up the wrong tree there.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:36 PM   #57
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Default Refresh vol state

Hi Banned!

Here is the problem with volume.
I think its bug, but I'm not sure.

PM-ed everything related to OSC-MIDI.

Thank you for your help!
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:36 PM   #58
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I am writing "it is not possible" related to Reaper internal features, without adding pd and its OSC support. Btw. I would not use pd for OSC anyway, my prefered tool is something else. Also not MaxMsp.

OSC can be exciting, ok, but I have here LOTS of devices, which output MIDI directly, but not OSC. That would mean I have to route everything through a midi-to-osc-converter. Even for normal stupid, boring note-on messages. If you feel this is the way how Reaper should behave by default, good for you.
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Old 02-22-2012, 01:44 PM   #59
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I am writing "it is not possible" related to Reaper internal features, without adding pd and its OSC support.
Again, sorry, but you're trolling in the wrong thread then. This thread is about the exact opposite topic.

Quote:
OSC can be exciting, ok, but I have here LOTS of devices, which output MIDI directly, but not OSC. That would mean I have to route everything through a midi-to-osc-converter. Even for normal stupid, boring note-on messages. If you feel this is the way how Reaper should behave by default, good for you.
Not at all. What part of silly workaround did you not understand? I think REAPER should have plain MIDI feedback, too. But even more, it should have OSC support by default.

You're also mistaken, just have to convert MIDI that you want to process using OSC. All other MIDI can go its usual route. Those *output* devices do not need parameter feedback, which is what OSC is currently required for via this silly workaround. So your point is moot.

But you can also do some really useful stuff without OSC, using only MIDI I/O via Pd, Max, etc. too, such as MIDI mapping / scaling / inversion / etc. So you don't have to use conversion to OSC at all, but can just use MIDI output of all those devices, do the mapping you miss in REAPER, and send MIDI to REAPER. Nothing new here.

New, thanks to OSC support, is access to full resolution of mixer, instrument and effect plugin parameters in REAPER, using your old MIDI equipment. No OSC controllers required. Not a silly workaround at all.

Btw, the trick is to try and make your note-on messages not stupid and boring.
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Old 02-22-2012, 01:59 PM   #60
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You can write here long tales if you want, but first you should understand the problem, and write solutions, if any available, related to THAT problem, not your tales.

If you can invert bypass state with same note (pitch and velocity same), tell me how, do not write tales.
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:35 PM   #61
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You can write here long tales if you want, but first you should understand the problem, and write solutions, if any available, related to THAT problem, not your tales.

If you can invert bypass state with same note (pitch and velocity same), tell me how, do not write tales.
You are stubbornly refusing help. I told you *exactly* what you had to do, but I'll even do that for you.



I am under no obligation to understand *your* problem before I write solutions for *my* problems, which I freely share with others here. And I told you a solution first. Now, goodbye.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:15 PM   #62
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Now, I need 1440 of those, in parallel. I did not test anything, just telling you the situation.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:42 PM   #63
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Now, I need 1440 of those, in parallel. I did not test anything, just telling you the situation.
Can you count, copy and paste? You, sir, are a troll.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:03 PM   #64
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No, I just show you this pd patching style is not really great for big numbers. You can have fun with copy pasting such patches, I sure will not do this. Even, patching is a very bad idea. For programming you do not need any gui, drag-drop, mouse clicking, this is made for people like you, who are not trolls.

But thanks anyway for all your help!
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:23 PM   #65
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Banned, I registered to say thank you for the PD patches! I already tested bcr2000 (which I got just one day ago) with the first patch.
I can't wait till I test the other patches tomorrow
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:25 PM   #66
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Banned, I registered to say thank you for the PD patches! I already tested bcr2000 (which I got just one day ago) with the first patch.
I can't wait till I test the other patches tomorrow
You're welcome (and, welcome here! )! I will probably post a few more useful and polished ones than these after REAPER 4.2 officially hits the streets, but hopefully these are enough to get you going in the meanwhile. If you haven't yet, perhaps check out this little video showing some basic controller feedback goodness.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:27 AM   #67
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With the OSC support for remote controller surfaces included in recent pre-release builds, we can now also hook up remote controllers using MIDI bi-directionally

Oh-KAY!

Now that I can see having all kinds of practical uses.

Why did I sell my BCF2000, etc...????
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Old 03-16-2012, 04:25 AM   #68
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Banned, I haven't seen that video you posted, thanks. Is the PD patch that is used in that video available for download?
I tried PD+OSC yesterday for the first time, I've been doing some basic coding in the past (nothing related to music), but at first glance, I admit don't really know how to build patches like yours..

I would really like to try to create some custom patches on my own, but I don't know how to do it yet, guess I will have to learn all this stuff, until we get some simple tool for this OSC stuff.

I will try other patches you posted today, hopefully I will be able to make some use of the BCR + duende channel strip
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:09 AM   #69
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If you haven't yet, perhaps check out this little video showing some basic controller feedback goodness.
I'm also a BCR2000 user and that's really cool. Well done.
Would be also interested in the PD patch.

Just one thing I'm wondering though:
Wouldn't we also need some kind of 'emulated controller display' (like the BCView/HuskerVu) to see which parameters we are currently controlling with the BCR ?
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:16 AM   #70
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I'm also a BCR2000 user and that's really cool. Well done.
Would be also interested in the PD patch.

Just one thing I'm wondering though:
Wouldn't we also need some kind of 'emulated controller display' (like the BCView/HuskerVu) to see which parameters we are currently controlling with the BCR ?
(grin ) so there we are full circle back to my suggested combined touch screen and BFC BRC equivalent.

This is finally starting to look like there are affordable practical
applications and hardware to run them in the not too distant future for The Rest Of Us, not just the geeks.
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:32 AM   #71
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thank you Banned I've found your posts very helpful. I'm starting to get into pd and it's indeed very neat.

I have been eyeing the bcr2000 for a while now, but it would be super cool to have a wifi version (I don't care for touchscreens, I like the physical knob turning)
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Old 03-16-2012, 11:46 AM   #72
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(grin ) so there we are full circle back to my suggested combined touch screen and BFC BRC equivalent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKSXPsLJ6f8

(got never further than building a prototype though afaik)

maybe also promising:

http://www.girtonlabs.com/index.php/...s/sensesurface
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:05 PM   #73
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I'm also a BCR2000 user and that's really cool. Well done.
Would be also interested in the PD patch.

Just one thing I'm wondering though:
Wouldn't we also need some kind of 'emulated controller display' (like the BCView/HuskerVu) to see which parameters we are currently controlling with the BCR ?
get hold an of ipod touch or similar, then e.g touchosc can be setup to show all the info in an actual readable display - sat next to your unit, and if you dare, you can 'touch' it to do things too! [runs]
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:23 PM   #74
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKSXPsLJ6f8

(got never further than building a prototype though afaik)

maybe also promising:

http://www.girtonlabs.com/index.php/...s/sensesurface
girton labs is just down the road from me - might have to check them out....
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:06 PM   #75
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girton labs is just down the road from me - might have to check them out....
Ask them when this thing finally comes out.
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:57 PM   #76
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I've tested the 5th PD patch posted by Banned. Unfortunately, I couldn't get feedback to work. With 1st patch, it worked fine.

I also noticed, that there is a very noticable lag between knob movement and actual movement of the knob on the screen. Any ideas what can be the cause and how to get rid of it?

Banned, is it possible for you to create a "generic" BCR2000 PD patch, that would include all 32 encoders and all the buttons, that one could set up in "actions"? If you ever find enough free time to do this, it would be great!
It would be great to use BCR2000 with feedback on all encoders/buttons.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:17 PM   #77
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Banned, I haven't seen that video you posted, thanks. Is the PD patch that is used in that video available for download? [...]
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Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
thank you Banned I've found your posts very helpful. I'm starting to get into pd and it's indeed very neat.
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
I'm also a BCR2000 user and that's really cool. Well done.
Would be also interested in the PD patch.
You're welcome guys, glad to be of help! I haven't posted the patch I used in the video yet. My main REAPER OSC Pd patch is currently still in a state of constant flux, and I'm not comfortable sharing it while it is as messy as it is. And currently my focus is not on cleaning up at all, I'm trying all types of useful things which are still way too experimental - all at the same time of course - so I'd want to either rip the rubbish out and tidy up, or finish them properly. And then I may not even get around to that, because I will probably switch to Max after this round of messy prototyping in Pd. Making things less ugly, debugging weird corner cases, and so on would also take some time, which I prefer to spend on trying out new stuff at the moment - but none of that does not really depend much on the OSC stuff really. More a matter of brushing up on the few Pd skills I have myself. So I'll try to at least post another few simple examples to get you guys going, which use the most recent OSC configuration (there have been quite a few changes since the last example I posted here, all improvements of course), and I'll be happy to answer any questions on how to deal with REAPER via OSC, in Pd or elsewhere, or even using Pd in general (although there are much better places for that). I'll prepare some stuff and then start a new thread in the MIDI / OSC / etc. subforum for that, cool?

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Just one thing I'm wondering though:
Wouldn't we also need some kind of 'emulated controller display' (like the BCView/HuskerVu) to see which parameters we are currently controlling with the BCR ?
"Need" is overstating it a bit (when you have only a handful of tracks, know your instruments and effects by heart, and remember "oh volume was here... pan is there" or use a few pieces of tape, you simply hear what you do and I can just close my eyes half the time), but it can indeed be *very* handy. The Pd patch does have a GUI, but it was still *way* too ugly to show. But it's getting better - I just implemented really usable high precision rotary knobs with circular mode, and they're not even that ugly:


(old)


(current)

And indeed, I have also been doing what BenK-msx yelled (before he ran ), just hook up an iPad or iPhone with something like TouchOSC and you'll have 4 places (REAPER, Pd GUI, MIDI controller, touchscreen) to control the same stuff, while everything stays in sync. Or more, if you'd need to (still haven't tried multiple iPhones yet - while I have a bunch of them...). Here's a pic of quick template I've made for that purpose (also needs more work, but you get the idea):

Attached Images
File Type: png fugly.png (9.1 KB, 947 views)
File Type: png more-useful+less-ugly.png (11.5 KB, 952 views)
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:28 PM   #78
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I've tested the 5th PD patch posted by Banned. Unfortunately, I couldn't get feedback to work. With 1st patch, it worked fine.
I haven't checked it, but I guess that's just because of the changes to the OSC configuration. Just ignore the patch, good riddance. We'll start fresh.
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I also noticed, that there is a very noticable lag between knob movement and actual movement of the knob on the screen. Any ideas what can be the cause and how to get rid of it?
Apart from slow wifi network and such, in the OSC control surface configuration settings in REAPER's preferences, set the maximum bundle size to zero, and the update frequency to 0 as well.
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Banned, is it possible for you to create a "generic" BCR2000 PD patch, that would include all 32 encoders and all the buttons, that one could set up in "actions"? If you ever find enough free time to do this, it would be great!
It would be great to use BCR2000 with feedback on all encoders/buttons.
Yes and no.

Yes, I can because I already have something that can do that plus much more.

But no, unfortunately we can't get feedback yet for learned OSC bindings to actions. I'm hoping that this will still be changed (especially for "Track FX Parameters"!), but it could well be after the release of REAPER 4.2. But do make your support for such a change known please, just chime in on the OSC bug report/FR thread!

Btw, indeed only 32 encoders, but 56 encoder MIDI CC#s: the top 8 multiply by 4 groups - and they are also buttons. Still I've long ran out of CC#s, of course. One of the most difficult things to decide is how to set up groups and layers of modifiers to use even more functions than the hundred plus MIDI CC#s in a BCR-2000 preset, but still keep everything sensible and easy enough.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:32 PM   #79
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Oh-KAY!

Now that I can see having all kinds of practical uses.
Awesome!

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Why did I sell my BCF2000, etc...????
Yeah, too bad you got rid of the BCF - even though the faders are a bit noisy, it can be incredibly useful. I lost a Yamaha ProMix 01 myself a year ago, that I only used for its motorized faders. Bummer. Will definitely keep an eye out for a second hand BCF now.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:37 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKSXPsLJ6f8

(got never further than building a prototype though afaik)

maybe also promising:

http://www.girtonlabs.com/index.php/...s/sensesurface
LOL, those look awesome! I want a few even if they would be no more than toy quality, haha. Damn, nipples on your screen, that's hot!
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