Old 02-03-2012, 08:43 PM   #1
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Default BUG? Reset CC on stop/play or Loop

There is an option in Preferences | Audio | Midi Devices
whereby "On stop/play" you can tick a box to "reset CC" (Continuous Controller).

I unticked this box but still have a reset MIDI controller message generated at the start of every loop. Considering SPP sends a stop & start each loop iteration, this may be the above option not working. I have created a video illustrating the bug and reported it.

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3924

Can someone please reproduce this and tick the box in that thread?
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:32 AM   #2
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I've just had the same thing happen with non reset values. See the thread I mentioned.

EDIT - "tracker issue" actually, not "thread". Please limit any discussion there.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:28 PM   #3
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I am seeing the same or similar behavior (in 4.151). When playing a looped midi track, if I use a controller to send CC's, the CC I sent on the current loop will sometimes be reset to 0 on the start of the next loop. It does not occur every time though.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:08 AM   #4
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It looks like this was supposed to be fixed in 4.11 but I'm still seeing it in 4.151:

v4.11 - November 12 2011
+ [4.111 - November 13 2011] OSX64/Win64: stability fix
+ MIDI: fixed sending of excess pitch/note/cc resets on loop

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Old 03-02-2012, 07:39 AM   #5
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This came up in another thread called Does reaper send all notes off when relocating the play cursor in a loop? where I posted the following animated GIF.



A developer, responded, the gist of which is reproduced below. This is the place for discussion rather than me further hijacking that other thread (or adding confusion to the bug tracker post).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Confirming that Reaper resets CC when a timeline loop repeats, even if "Reset CC on stop/play" is disabled in the prefs.

To be fair it should be mentioned that a loop repeat is not stop/play. Actually I have a hunch this is planned behavior and not a bug although it's outcome is understandably not good in some situations (similar to the reset messages at stop/play themselves which would need a rethink as well and also the item based search-back for the last sent CC which totally needs to work track-wide across items).

I suppose it would be wise to open this again as a feature request (for an option to disable the loop CC reset altogether and maybe for a way to define our own reset values).
In addition to my bug tracker post? Won't others consider that to be a double posting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I am trying to think of situations where this behavior is annoying to back up the urgency of such a request. It doesn't seem to bother many people (myself I didn't even notice it up to now).

One situation is when you intend to play an instrument live (or record) over a loop of pre-recorded CC values if the pre-recorded item starts later than the left loop edge or has no CC event to fall back to at it's start.
Are there more situations?
"Fall back to"? Sometimes it actually uses the last known value in the loop and inserts it at the start of the loop (ie not an actual reset). This new "initial" value sometimes gets "sticky" ie you cannot delete it and is described in the bug tracker report mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Are there more situations?
Playing an instrument through delay and you change the feedback via a continuous controller. Every loop restart would set feedback to zero.

Last edited by sqgl; 03-02-2012 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:18 AM   #6
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The only thing I can develop is bad habits . I'm totally no dev, sqgl, just a mere user blessed with some moderation keys here in the forum.

With "fall back to" I meant that if you have a CC event at a point before or at the loop start time Reaper will reset to that value.

Like this situation in the upper pic:


The lower pic shows a situation I personally hate about Reaper's MIDI. It doesn't trace back across items. I reckon it's sort of a shameless plug here, but I just can't resist to mention it wherever it somehow fits

Trying to recreate the sticky reset values, but don't yet succeed.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:47 AM   #7
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Also have this problem, using latest version of Reaper.
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
The only thing I can develop is bad habits . I'm totally no dev, sqgl, just a mere user blessed with some moderation keys here in the forum.

With "fall back to" I meant that if you have a CC event at a point before or at the loop start time Reaper will reset to that value.

Like this situation in the upper pic:


The lower pic shows a situation I personally hate about Reaper's MIDI. It doesn't trace back across items. I reckon it's sort of a shameless plug here, but I just can't resist to mention it wherever it somehow fits

Trying to recreate the sticky reset values, but don't yet succeed.
Agree fully with you that Reaper's MIDI should trace back across items. That's something any sequencer/DAW should do in 2012. On my (very) old ATARI sequencer, they called the option "Chase Controllers" and you could choose which controller to chase. It worked perfectly from anywhere in the sequence... in 1990

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Old 03-06-2012, 11:30 AM   #9
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I'm glad this is getting noticed by others. I'll give an example where this behavior is annoying and causing headaches for me. Using a VSTi, I've midi-learned many of the synths parameters to the knobs and faders on my midi controller (ADSR, filter cutoff, resonance, envelope amount, etc.). Sometimes it's just easier to dial in a patch using knobs and faders than it is to do it with a mouse. Anyway, I'll set up a midi riff and set loop points to let it repeat indefinitely when playing. Then I'll go to work adjusting the synth parameters with the controller to get things sounding just right. However, sometimes (not every loop) the last adjusted parameter will jump to 0. If filter cutoff jumps to 0, usually the sound goes away. I haven't noticed the jumping to a random value behavior, but if it is jumping back to the last set value I probably am not noticing. A work around is to create a midi clip with looping checked and drag it out for many measures so that play never needs to repeat. Still, when I tried this I think one or some of the CC's still reset even though I have the option to reset CC's on start/stop disabled. I'll have to check that.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:11 AM   #10
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Default Me Too

When I have midi items with vol and exp cc in them
The Vol and exp CC's change to zero or maximum unpredictably when the item ends or loops or I back up to the beginning. I turned off the "reset cc on stop/play" to no effect

Both my OSX and WinXP installs have always done this to me - I keep telling myself NOT to enter ANY VOL or EXP cc data EVER - pretty inconvenient!

It's messing up my mix!

^^ after reading the above ^^

My expectation is that when the play head is moved to a point in time, Reaper should set the cc's to the value they would be if it had arrived there during normal play. Or leave them the hell alone! And it should do this in every and all situations unless I tell it different!


It's messing up my mix!
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:57 PM   #11
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Default Shh!

( Psst! gluing all midi items together is a workaround! But don't tell Cockos, I still want them to fix it! )
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky5p View Post
It worked perfectly from anywhere in the sequence... in 1990

In 1990! WAKE UP CALL to Reaper devs!!!
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ball2000 View Post
( Psst! gluing all midi items together is a workaround! But don't tell Cockos, I still want them to fix it! )
That does not help the situation shown in my earlier post's animated GIF.
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
In 1990! WAKE UP CALL to Reaper devs!!!
Yep, that was in 1990. FWIW, the sequencer's name was Master Track Pro. Beside having a very good "chase controller" option, it had many other features that are still not available in Reaper, such as "quantize while recording", a sysEx librarian, etc. It's been so long that I don't recall exactly why I chose this sequencer over its competitors back then (Cubase and Notator were also available for the Atari ST). For those who are curious about this program, check out this link: (you can also download the program, it's now freeware and works fine on a PC with an Atari emulator)

http://tamw.atari-users.net/mtpro.htm

Note: the screen cap I posted in my previous post is from the Windows version that came out in 2003 (it was easier to capture) but the 1990 Atari ST version had the exact same "Chase Controller" option.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:07 AM   #15
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I thought it was me
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqgl View Post
That does not help the situation shown in my earlier post's animated GIF.
oh right, that's annoying!

What you could try is creating empty items before and after the loop and gluing them so your loop never crosses item bounds, wouldn't that fix it?
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:14 AM   #17
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This is really making me crazy. I decided to try Studio One because of this and it works perfect for midi and automation. Unfortunately it is missing stuff like track templates and editing modifiers for midi editing.

So I'm stuck with re-entering all of my tracks by hand every time in studio one and being able to record, or having my Synth reset constantly in reaper.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky5p View Post
Agree fully with you that
Reaper's MIDI should trace back across items.
That's something any sequencer/DAW should do
in 2012. On my (very) old ATARI sequencer,
they called the option "Chase Controllers"
and you could choose which controller to chase.
It worked perfectly from anywhere in the sequence...
in 1990 ///
+1 to this. Track Media Item count should not
affect this. It should always chase the last
value on the Track, regardless of what Media
Item that value is in.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:49 PM   #19
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Ok, this has got me all confused now.

My controller is dropping messages in (117, 118, some others) when I'm recording. Is this what we are talking about? It's not the same as "midi learning/actions" where you set up stop, loop, record, etc. But those cc's are coming through.

So before I bother with anything further, this is what we are talking about? I thought I knew what this thread was about but now I just feel lost.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
With "fall back to" I meant that if you have a CC event at a point before or at the loop start time Reaper will reset to that value.
+1 for fall back to across items
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:46 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisharbin View Post
My controller is dropping messages in (117, 118, some others) when I'm recording. Is this what we are talking about?
This thread is about Reaper adding (not dropping) messages. You may need to start a new thread to sort it out.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:04 AM   #22
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Voted able to reproduce.

I've been getting the same behaviour here too. =(

It happens for me even though I've not recorded any CC changes, only tweaked knobs on a controller.

Developers - This is RUINING REAPER ENTIRELY for a small number of people.

Surely that is as important as a small issue that is causing minor grievance to a great number of people.
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:46 AM   #23
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Okay. Some, I think, new information.

I don't reckon it is tied in with just recorded CC data. I don't use any recorded CC data and I can reproduce what looks like the same bug.

Using a MIDI controller to control a VST parameters via CC (not via Reaper MIDI learn) I can recreate this bug thusly...

-Create a track and add a VST that has parameters that respond to CC
-Create an item with one midi note
-Set up a loop and press play
-Send CC data from MIDI controller to move parameter on VST making sure to move the controller when the playhead passes the note-on and the note-off!
-Jumping value occurs now on every end/beginning of loop
-Restart program to fix

Can anybody else confirm this?

Last edited by chopstickkk; 04-17-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:40 AM   #24
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I've made a video of the behaviour here...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9600561/CCLoopingBug.swf

Here's a very simple project that adheres to the bug reproduction steps in the previous post. It uses ReaMidiControl if you have a MIDI controller that sends CC7 give it a try.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9600561/CCLoopingBugClean.RPP
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:49 PM   #25
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I can confirm this is still present in reaper 4.21. It basically makes CC jamming with my controller useless. Please please please fix this one!!

Thanks Cockos
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:29 AM   #26
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skimmed the thread havent come across this so far but I take it there IS a bug report in already?
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:09 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
skimmed the thread havent come across this so far but I take it there IS a bug report in already?
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3924

Vote reproducible if you can.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:51 AM   #28
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I'm getting a hopping fader with my x session pro too.

Rather annoying
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:56 AM   #29
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Hey Gazza,

What are you doing out of your coffin in daylight?
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:43 PM   #30
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Bumpgif

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #31
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Bump..

Is this actually going to get fixed?
Why is there no reply from a dev confirming this, or telling us when they are able to take a look and fix it.
Am starting to think I bought the wrong host to replace Cubase for MIDI, cheap DAW apparently means: poor support.

I have a EMU Xboard49 controlling hardware- and softwaresynthesizers, i have deselected reset CC at the MIDI preference screen but am getting so fed up with CC reset after using a knob on the keyboard. Why.. why...why are we experiencing this??? ..Come on..

Cheers.

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Old 07-13-2012, 02:20 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xgmode View Post
...for MIDI, cheap DAW apparently means: poor support.
+1. Unfortunately =(
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:19 PM   #33
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Sorry for the harsh tone earlier, it would mean a lot to us if this can be fixed.
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
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cheap DAW apparently means: poor support.
Cmoon, i guess you didn't face Ableton or Logic support... Where else on earth the devs are talking to users on forums?
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Old 07-14-2012, 03:09 AM   #35
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Yeah but fixing always beats talking to us about.

Not that the devs are generally lax in that area, but there are a lot of long term irritants like this still hanging around since who knows when.

Maybe it is another one of those that would take a disproportionately large amount of coding and dev time to fix.... like many of the other MIDI requests, apparently.
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Maybe it is another one of those that would take a disproportionately large amount of coding and dev time to fix.... like many of the other MIDI requests, apparently.
I'm pretty sure it isn't.


if loopEnd_reached then dontSendCCresetForCryingOutLoud


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Old 07-26-2012, 03:35 AM   #37
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Animabump...



Just to re-interate this happens only for MIDI CC not for Reaper MIDI learned parameters.

i.e. the volume on the V-Station responds to MIDI CC #7 directly but the threshold on the compressor was MIDI Learned.
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:54 AM   #38
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I can replicate this very easily .

Using Maschine controller and a midi keyboard controller.

After moving a vst parameter either using the midi contoller the midi cc is resetting.I do not understand why it does it sometimes but not all the time.

THanks chopstikkk though. I had not realised that you could work round it by using reaper midi learn... Its a pain in the ass though as i have several templates set up that i use on maschine to saved me having to go in and learn everything.
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Old 05-26-2013, 12:31 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deailes View Post
...Its a pain in the ass...
Suuuuure is.

deailes don't forget to vote on this page if you haven't already...

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3924

I don't think it'll make much difference.

Like most MIDI users I've moved to a different software. REAPER is a glorified VST rack for me now.

Sigh...
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Old 02-16-2015, 03:49 PM   #40
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Exclamation How can this NOT be fixed

I am reading all this in disbelief. I fetched up here looking for a solution to a silly bit of software beaviour: CC values being set to unrequired values in various Stop, Loop and Pause scenarios.

That this is still an issue after >2 years and so many versions is amazing. Don't devs read any of this?

This is a game changer. After a couple of years getting into Reaper after >20 years of Cubase, I have lost 90% of my belief in the product.

If I had this problem in a mixing desk, I would bin it.

Anyone know of a DAW that can manage MIDI properly? Please don't tell me Cubase!
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