Old 11-18-2010, 10:50 PM   #81
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Did a quick listen. Those raw tracks sound good!
Do I hear added reverb on the guitars in that mix version?

That's kind of a no-no. It's often not used on distorted rhythm guitars in metal so as to keep the guitars more defined and "in your face".

That said, I think Devin Townsend uses quite a bit of verb on rhythms and yet it sounds great. Don't know many others who do that in modern metal.

I'd keep the rhythm guitars dry. And I think the bass is a bit too much up front... I'd turn it down a bit.

Just my 2c. I'm sure the more experienced people can give more/better/different feedback.
Thanks for the feedback ejk! I had wanted the verb to glue everything together. I routed every track to a verb buss and then started lowering the sends as I noticed it was doing more harm than good on a track by track basis. I think I cut it out of the bass, toms and OH's. The snare had some but it got buried by the gated reverb on the snare so I got rid of it. I think it only remains on the kick and guitars. I'm more used to mixing big, roomy sounding 3 chord classic rock stuff so I don't even know what the standard practices are for more modern material, but I really want to broaden my horizons. To me, the raw tracks feel a little disconnected and I instinctively go for reverb. Maybe I need to just dial it in better... or maybe there's a better tool altogether
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:10 AM   #82
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(None of this is gospel. I'm not an expert, just a hobbyist working on my own stuff for fun and who likes to read a lot.)

I use reverb relatively little on my stuff. Usually I leave at least kick, bass and distorted rhythm guitars completely dry.

On drums toms, snare and overheads may go with or without verb, depending on if I use any room mics in there. Sometimes I use verb on everything (but the kick) and room, sometimes there's only snare and tom verb and no room, sometimes there might be only the snareverb plus room mics and everything else dry. Most of the time it's only snare and tom verb and everything else dry. YMMV.

Lead guitars and vocals usually go through reverb or delay, sometimes both.
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Old 11-19-2010, 06:29 AM   #83
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Marah- All the guitars were miked cabs. Sepcifically a tele tuned to DADGAD played through an Orange Rocker 30 combo, and a Les Paul in drop D through a Marshall. As for vocals, they were too embarassed to let me hear anything they had tracked so I had nothing to work with. I have told them that adding vocals will definitely change things.
Thanks. The guitars sound quite precise (as does it all.) They sound cleanly recorded. I wonder how much editing I'm hearing, and of what kind, done at what stage. Do you know how they actually tracked the performances? Did they give you discrete stems, or were you presented with a project file with all the gory details on display?

I downloaded the two mp3s and brought them into Reaper (I hope you don't mind) where they line up as per. It's interesting flipping between the two.

I like the sound of raw tracks. That's NOT a comment on your mix, btw. Just that there's something nice about digital raw. Or is it raw digital? Either way, yeah.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:47 AM   #84
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Anyway you can post a step by step to use cab impulses along with say lepou or Nick Crow?

Still new but learning fast.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:28 PM   #85
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Cool, a metal thread!

I was wondering if anybody could comment on some mixes that I did.
These are mixes of some of the raw tracks kindly posted by users at the Ultimate Metal forum. I have obtained the permission from those users to post my mixes on my myspace :

http://www.myspace.com/fredschock

Music player is on the right hand side.

Cheers
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Old 11-27-2010, 07:28 PM   #86
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Cool, a metal thread!

I was wondering if anybody could comment on some mixes that I did.
These are mixes of some of the raw tracks kindly posted by users at the Ultimate Metal forum. I have obtained the permission from those users to post my mixes on my myspace :

http://www.myspace.com/fredschock

Music player is on the right hand side.

Cheers
Fred
Not the proper place for this post. You should move it over to the Music/Collab forum
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:18 AM   #87
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Hey -- I learned a lot from this thread about getting heavy guitar sounds. I was wondering if there was any forthcoming wisdom about getting heavy drums. I'm using EZDrummer and Battery, and would love to know how you get them to really sing.

Thanks to all for everything else that's been revealed on this thread so far.

Cheers.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:28 AM   #88
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Hey -- I learned a lot from this thread about getting heavy guitar sounds. I was wondering if there was any forthcoming wisdom about getting heavy drums. I'm using EZDrummer and Battery, and would love to know how you get them to really sing.

Thanks to all for everything else that's been revealed on this thread so far.

Cheers.
First off it helps if you have an EZX or kit that is suited for metal. For EZDrummer there's Drumkit From Hell and Metalheads kits which both will work fine. To avoid being long-winded I'll direct you here:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpsKp-vdBLY

He's using Logic and SD2.0 but the idea is the same.
Mind you this is only a starting point.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:01 AM   #89
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I'm personally more a fan of bands like Tool... I know on Aenima they had their drums going through a loud PA system pumped back into the same room... so the kick/snare/toms sounded heavier. That might be something to try experimenting with, even if they are sampled drums, try blasting them (not so much the cymabls) through speakers, set up mics close and far, and try blending that into the direct signal... you never know, it might work

for more colour, use a guitar amp, with pedels... fun stuff
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:04 PM   #90
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I'm working on a new song and I want to go for a Mercyful Fate/King Diamond kind of drum sound. I know this can be achieved with gated reverb which i'v never tried on drums. does anybody know the most efficient and effective way of doing this in Reaper.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:02 AM   #91
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I think Freeverb Too has built in gate just for that kind of stuff. And it's really not that bad verb vst either.
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:00 AM   #92
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I'm working on a new song and I want to go for a Mercyful Fate/King Diamond kind of drum sound. I know this can be achieved with gated reverb which i'v never tried on drums. does anybody know the most efficient and effective way of doing this in Reaper.
Uh... reverb + gate?
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:17 PM   #93
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Uh... reverb + gate?
well obviously. do i have to use separate reverbs for each drum or a separate reverb bus for just the drums and then would i send that to the main reverb bus where the rest of the mix is going so it all sounds cohesive?
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:35 PM   #94
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- Yes. Listen to the band "Attack, Attack" - they are rainbow colored metal.
You never said, that you'd be a meanie.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:45 PM   #95
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well obviously. do i have to use separate reverbs for each drum or a separate reverb bus for just the drums and then would i send that to the main reverb bus where the rest of the mix is going so it all sounds cohesive?
For gated reverb, you have to do them individually. Otherwise, if you hit the snare and then a tom, the tom will keep the gate from closing on the snare's reverb and thus defeat the whole purpose.

I think KarmaFX Reverb has a gate setting somewhere, not sure though.
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:04 PM   #96
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Wow - I forgot about this thread! What the hell is wrong with me.

Drums are getting easier for me - I think once I found some samples that I love (Steven Slate's Drums are fantastic for my music and the FTA's music), stopped trying to throw 97 effect inserts at each channel and just let the samples sound the way they're supposed to, my drum mixes improved vastly.

Drums, by far more than any instrument in your mix, can be impacted by the "garbage in = garbage out" rule. If you have terrible sounding drums, then, well... your whole mix is probably going to sound bad because there isn't much you can do to change the actual timbre of the drum itself.

You can add some punch via compression, and you can make minor EQ adjustments, but if the source is bad, then it's going to sound bad, period.

As for me, I use both Steven Slate Drums (via Kontakt), and suppliment that with Superior Drummer 2.0 since I am not a huge fan of the sampled cymbals that come with SSD - with SD2.0 the cymbals are more "ready to go" for me.

Gated Reverb, eh Zoso? I haven't delved much into this, but if you find something you're happy with, post t up so all can hear.

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You never said, that you'd be a meanie.
I apologize for making fun of Attack Attack! sir. I will try not to in the future............. much
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:08 AM   #97
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I apologize for making fun of Attack Attack! sir. I will try not to in the future............. much
CHRIS DIED FOR WHAT HE LOVED, AND WHAT HE LOVED, WAS, ATTACK ATTACK!

*piano section*
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:59 AM   #98
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I apologize for making fun of Attack Attack! sir. I will try not to in the future............. much
Don't worry, their existence makes enough fun of them as is. :P
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:10 AM   #99
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For gated reverb, you have to do them individually. Otherwise, if you hit the snare and then a tom, the tom will keep the gate from closing on the snare's reverb and thus defeat the whole purpose.

I think KarmaFX Reverb has a gate setting somewhere, not sure though.
right, ok thanks man. I was hoping there was a more cpu friendly way but oh well. I'll be playing around with this on my latest project so i'll let you guys hear it for sure.

another thing i've been messing around with is drum overhead placement. I really like the results i've been getting with an ORTF stereo pair over the kit. it's by far the easiest drum editing i've ever done.

@ Chris P: Did you ever look into some music theory books? I actually have 1 or 2 kicking around I can give you if you'd like.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:10 AM   #100
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@ Chris P: Did you ever look into some music theory books? I actually have 1 or 2 kicking around I can give you if you'd like.
I haven't really - kinda lost interest in learning theory. I appreciate the offer though dude!
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:01 PM   #101
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Just want to bump this thread, don't know how I missed it, but I'm really looking forward to future info, particualarly drums & bass (if/when that happens....). I've been at this recording stuff for a couple of years now, but still consider myself a newbie.....Still try to learn all I can as much as I can, so keep the info coming dudes!!!! Great thread!!!
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:17 AM   #102
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For all you metalmixers.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/work-...-included.html

Some nice practice material in there, I had fun working on it. My mix is in that thread somewhere too.
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:42 PM   #103
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I am going to bump this - glad that others are posting here as well.

While I am certain that some recorded DI's (i.e. guitar -> interface -> Reaper) sound better than others, I know for a fact that the DI's I can capture with my gear are very weak in comparison - they are what they are, and there is really nothing I can do about it, short of spending hundreds of dollars on better gear.

This is where the "it is what it is" factor comes into play - this is one area where you really are limited by your gear in my opion. My beat to death Schecter C1 Elite with noisy, stock Seymour Duncan pickups, plus my Line 6 UX1 isn't going to capture any where near the quality of DI that would be considered "great", but - it's definitely passable to me. That said, as long as I can get a tone I'm happy with, I am not that concerned about it.
Hi, wanted to pipe in. My friend did the White Chapel record and he has been doing metal records only for years and years. What is cool is that he was not mixing his releases for a long time, but his White Chapel mixes sound crushing, and that is a testament to how good he is, and how never stops improving at his craft.

As for the Schecter C1 Elite you have. I have it as well. Here is a game changer for you. Via the engineer that works with my friend, get an Ibanez Evolution pickup for the bridge. I did that, and it is night and day. You will have FAR better tones, plus can tune as low as yo uwant and have amazing defintion playign the heaviest of riffs. As for composition tips, a lot of these guys are playing harmonic scales, so stretch your pinkies out and get to work.

As for me, I use a Les Paul Studio and a Telecaster. I would describe my sound as much more classic blues rock that is heavy..like Mountain meets Clutch. I am a huge fan of softube amps, and they are all amazing. The softube metal amp room is excellent, especially for distorting bass in a parallel channel. I prefer vingtage amp room for guitars, and usually settle on the Marshall turned up to 10. I am trying out the LePou Marshall sim with cabs also, because I want to see how it compares.

I use Addictive Drums because the program is stable, and the programming aspect is very easy for me.

I like a classic rock sound with modern heaviness, so I use tape sims on the end of all my busses. I also try and do the song in as few takes as possible so it has a live feel to it. I program my drums in FLStudio because I like the feel of it, and then I rewire into Cubase where I do drums and bass.

As for DI, you want to buy the EWI. It is $50 and has a 1Megaohm output. This is the secret to getting an ideal signal into an amp sim. I can not stress what a difference this will make in tone.

Definitley save up and buy an EVO for your bridge and buy an EWI DI, and I promise you will flip out.
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:15 AM   #104
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Hello everyone!

well, my first post here after being a long time lurker... as I see, this has happened to many people who gradually become interested in Reaper and this forum, with its great information.

I'm basically going through this thread as well as yep's massive thread on ass-sounding recording (like mine ) while at the same time I am being introduced to home recording at a home-recording class I'm currenlty taking at my music school. The point of view here is of an all-around guitarist, recently fascinated with extreme metal, but a long time listener to all kinf of metal sub-genres. For now, I'll be trying to get some order in the abundancy of information here, then maybe I'll ask something about using effectively a POD for recording guitars, as it is my main device for practicing (no-noise policy in my building).

Thanks to all for contributing!
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Old 05-23-2011, 03:08 AM   #105
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Bumping this for advice.

Can anybody suggest a newbie-friendly way to effectively record and "pump" DI bass for metal. I am working on a little demo of mine and unfortunately for the moment my only setup consists of: cheap bass --> pod xt (for guitar) --> reaper. Adding plugins to improve gain? Fully processing the signal? I am no bass player at all as far as good sounding bass tone is concerned...

Sorry if this has already been asked or if it is already being discussed elsewhere on this very same forum, but for whatever reason I can't perform searches very well.
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Old 05-23-2011, 05:05 AM   #106
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You need to ask rob rokken for dawg VST, that thing can do the faith no more "zing" pretty easily on bass
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Old 05-23-2011, 05:55 AM   #107
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For my bass I usually do the following:

Record a dry DI of a bass track. Then duplicate it. The first track I HP at around 60-70hz (this will vary from project to project) and LP around 700Hz and compress the hell outta it. The second track I add a distortion (any should do) and turn the gain up till it sounds like crap. This track gets a HP at 700hz and a LP at like S000 or so.
Doing this gives you a nice distorted bass souns that still retains clarity in the low end.
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Old 05-23-2011, 08:50 AM   #108
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Thanks for the advice, I'll try that (doubling the track + adding some comp and distortion)

EDIT: That worked quite fine, the sound is much fuller now, I've got more material to perform EQ adjustment and reach a more equilibrated mix. I used the TSS BOD and it worked perfectly.

Thanks again!

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Old 05-24-2011, 09:41 PM   #109
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and another thing to think about when writing songs is slow the fuck down! i used to think i had to play everything at 200bpm and the most eye opening experience for me was to have a far more experienced player, albeit a non metal player, tell me to slow the tempo down. i tried it and it was even heavier and a million times easier to play. heaving slow parts is also a great way to create impact. when a fast part comes in right after a slow part it seems way faster by comparison and has a greater impact on the audience.
Am re-reading this thread, and the above is a very important thing.

As an extreme example, look at AC/DC. Even their fastest songs are much slower than most speed-metal bands. The thing is, the slower the song, the more room it has to breathe. Think of it as a living thing. If it is well-rested and getting plenty of oxygen, it is going to be much more capable of kicking your fucking ass!!

Another example is Rammstein. That is a band that is heavier than shit! Their fast tunes are a bit faster than the fastest AC/DC tune, but not by much.

The usual description I give is this:

If you are playing at 200bpm, it is like someone hitting you in the face with a piece of typing paper. The drummer has no time to really slam the drums, the bassist has no time to really pull notes off his strings, the guitarists probably have just enough time to do any real sort of pummeling, as the entire band is expending enormous amounts of energy on trying to be "fast".

Now...contrast that with some really MASSIVE-sounding song like "Sonne" off of Rammstein's Mutter album. That song is going at a slow pace, and it is like being hit in the face by a 200-ton locomotive. The drummer has the time and the energy to beat the living shit out of his drums. The bassist can have a deeper more massive sounding tone, as he is not playing at 200bpm, and of course the guitars are going to have the chance to ring out, sound thicker, etc.

Speed-metal is like a hummingbird
Doom Metal is more like a Nazgul (Lord Of The Rings reference).

If I want impact, the slow and massive wins every time.

A great example of a sort of mid-tempo song which is truly heavy, but then at the end speeds up just a bit without losing the heaviness is Iron Maiden's "Rime Of The Ancient Mariner". That is a song which is epic in scope and has a very huge dynamic range from start to finish.

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, as I have seen a lot of bands over the past 30 years who wanted to be "the HEAVIEST band on the planet, man!", and who thought that "speed = heaviness", which is not true at all.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:24 PM   #110
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Speed-metal is like a hummingbird
Doom Metal is more like a Nazgul (Lord Of The Rings reference).
I don't even know what you'd equate Funeral Doom to
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Old 05-25-2011, 02:00 AM   #111
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Just finished reading the whole thread (boss is out for some business ), I am now on the same page as anybody else, or at least I hope so.
Very, VERY interesting contributions from Chris_P, and I find myself sharing the same philosophy: I record with what I have and, if I have the choice, what I am most comfortable with. I recently spent some time tampering with the knobs of my Pod XT, and I think I got some interesting guitar tones for heavy metal. I used the stock presets as a starting point and thought "Ok, now, what is that I don't like in this preset?". It all started from there and from a good amount of listening to my own tones, a/b'ing with commercial products, changing guitar but keeping the same tone settings etc. It was a lot of fun and very inspirational as well, it's been a while since I last played heavy stuff. I cut a couple tracks with quad-tracking with slightly different settings and found that the guitars kind of EQ themselves. Additional EQ (just a bit) is in any case needed to make them sit right in the mix.

Anyways, I now feel compelled to ask how did the guys record the drums for the FTA's songs: imho they're just awesome. That's precisely the sound I would like to achieve with samples, if possible. Having a hard time on sampled drums....
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:51 AM   #112
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I don't even know what you'd equate Funeral Doom to
Or what he thinks of Sunn o)))
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:48 AM   #113
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Anyways, I now feel compelled to ask how did the guys record the drums for the FTA's songs: imho they're just awesome. That's precisely the sound I would like to achieve with samples, if possible. Having a hard time on sampled drums....
I believe Chris is using Superior Drummer with a few Steven Slate samples thrown in. I'll direct him here when I get a chance. The programming is usually done by him or an amalgamation of him and myself. I'm sure he'll chime in soon...
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:39 AM   #114
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Getting back to technique, I usually dual track my guitars. One track panned 100% to the right, and another performance panned 100% to the left.
Pardon my ignorance, even though I've been playing Rock/Metal guitar since 1985 on and off (mostly on, but with some work-related gaps in-between) I'm a total newbie at recording:

When you say the above, do you mean:

1) Record 1 track, copy it and pan the 2
2) Record the same piece twice, once for left and once for right panning, using the same sound/effects
3) Record the same piece twice, once for left and once for right panning, using different sound/effects.

I've tried #2 as an experiment but I guess I'm not good enough to get the tracks 100% identical, you can hear small differences in my playing which ends up being a distraction. I guess a pro guitar player could get 2 takes to sound 100% identical, but I can't.

I'm also guessing that #3 could be used to get a fuller sound. What sometimes strikes me when listening to metal albums is that when you hear the guitar (occasionally) by itself, it's not a particularly great or smooth sound (this is all subjective, of course) but once you hear it in conjunction with the other instruments it just works and sounds great.

Yes, I have lots to learn. Any advice is appreciated.

Greetings/Thanks
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:24 AM   #115
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#1 is a big, big no-no. Doing this will just get you a guitar sound that's louder but still sitting smack in the middle of the stereo spectrum. It's the tiny differences between each take that makes double-tracking sound the way it does.

#2 is the most common, though #3 gets used a lot too. For an even bigger sound, you can combine them - two takes with Sound A, panned left and right, and then two MORE takes with Sound B, generally panned a little to the inside of the first two.

Obviously the more takes, the tighter your playing will need to be, but when done properly this can get your guitars to sound like Freddy Mercury's big vocal choirs.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:34 AM   #116
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I was working on a song recently where one rhythm guitar track (out of 2) was messed up during a lead solo. It was a performance glitch. So I copied the good section from the good track, over to the track with the bad section. Of course, yes, it just created a section where it was quite obviously a different section from the usual hard-panned left and right effect during the rest of the song. So....the trick was to somehow make the left and right tracks different during that section. What to do?

Well, to the human ear, one cannot really distinguish a lag in audio when the lag is under a certain number of milliseconds, so I just scooted the section I copied 'forward', and played it back.....really soon I scooted it enough that suddenly it was back to having definite hard-panned left and right guitar tracks. I could distinguish the slight lag of the one I had scooted, but it was very slight, and, just being a rhythm track in the background while the lead solo was going on, I knew it would not be obvious to the casual listener.


The trick was just to make the one track "different enough" from the first one so they did not just create the sound of a single track in the center.

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Old 06-03-2011, 11:39 AM   #117
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There's a free plug that does this called "ADT". But its no substitute for 2 seperate takes.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:42 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pattonfreak1 View Post
There's a free plug that does this called "ADT". But its no substitute for 2 seperate takes.
or readelay
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:24 PM   #119
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I like better the Terry West "wide" plugin. Then again, no substitute for 2 separate takes, but for quick and dirty demos is great.
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Old 06-09-2011, 03:02 AM   #120
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Speaking of double VS quad tracking, could anybody list a few examples of recent commercial records employing one method and a few employing the other? Is maybe quad-tracking the standard in the business? Since I hardly listen to music through real speakers (crappy PC speakers in the office and earplugs in my free time I admit I'm having a hard time as to telling how many guitars are there, say, in Megadeth's Endgame and where exactly they are panned. Anyways, I've decided to go with double tracking from now on, it just save times (big advantage for me) and the result is still good for a quick demo. Will post something to get some feedback from you guys shortly, hopefully.
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