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View Poll Results: Should we have an Enhanced for Midi Track Type?
Yes!!! 46 45.10%
Noooooo 52 50.98%
I dont know and/or I don't care 4 3.92%
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:55 AM   #81
technogremlin
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Originally Posted by DarthFader View Post
What should I do, thank these guys for such a confusing and nonsensical implementation that amounts to bait and switch?
You seem to choose your wording carefully....

How can there be any 'bait and switch' when you get the full software to try out as long as you need before parting with your money ?

You've just lost the last bit of respect I had for you
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:00 PM   #82
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You seem to choose your wording carefully....

How can there be any 'bait and switch' when you get the full software to try out as long as you need before parting with your money ?

You've just lost the last bit of respect I had for you
1) It's bait and switch to call it volume and have it velocity
2) It's even worse that it's inconsistent and SOME parts of Reaper translate CC7 to and soem don't
3) You are incorrect when you say they give the full software to try out as long as you like. If you read the license/blurb it's only 30 days, even though the software keeps running, it's still a violation of the EULA.

Whether you respect me or not is irrelevant; I've seen a lot of posts that make me question yourself as well.

I'm not here to try to make "friends" I'm here to give honest feedback about a product that I sort of like, but after this I'm just wondering what other hidden "features" there might be and whether I should be walking towards my next DAW or running.

By your "reasoning" they could make the volume faders really do -3db when set to 0db, since it "wouldn't be bait and switch" as long as they gave you an "unlimited" tryout.

Sorry, flawed logic is still flawed whether you respect me or not, and I, for one, as an engineer, do not respect flawed logic regardless of the personalities involved.

Obviously by using "bait and switch" as an expression I'm talking about how it is to the user (baited into drawing a Velo curve and then it switching it to velocity) not the legal aspects of whether or not that amounts to "bait and switch" under California law.

I'm not a Lawyer.
DF

Last edited by DarthFader; 07-07-2010 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:07 PM   #83
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Sorry - I'm not a supplicant, and honesty is the currency I deal with.DF
So your method of communication is to demand something as loudly and obtrusively as possible until people yield to your requests? Personally, Iím just thankful for a DAW with this much flexibility. Reaper doesnít have everything I want (I use internal MIDI frequently), but I found that Notion3 does most if not all of the MIDI oriented work I need and some assistance from a few folks at the development forum let me do work from a music staff that made production much more efficient for me.

Why donít you go onto the developer forums and see if someone will team up with you to create an extension to help you achieve the features you request instead of your current pattern of making raging, overbearing posts? Asking for assistance from people in the habit of writing effects and extensions would at least be more constructive than your current method. I did this with regard to the music notation and several people stepped up to make these ideas work.

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Your currency may be honesty, but I think you should go to an exchange and switch some honesty for tact. Honesty may be the best policy, but honesty at the expense of respectfulness is ineffective and destructive.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:12 PM   #84
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3) You are incorrect when you say they give the full software to try out as long as you like. If you read the license/blurb it's only 30 days, even though the software keeps running, it's still a violation of the EULA.
Correct, but.... many people have been asking here on the forum if using an 'extended evaluation period' posed any great problems, and I have seen the devs being quite friendly on that subject.

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I'm not here to try to make "friends"
Well, at least 'something' is working out for you then.

I'm done here.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:14 PM   #85
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Friends tell you what your enemies won't.

Does that make me a friend or an enemy?

I'm certainly not sugar coating these last few posts but it should be pretty clear that I'm shocked, dismayed, and insulted.

So I made a post that makes it sound that way? Plenty of people rant about this or that on these forums and all forums in fact.

Lots of people get accused of being "plants" from another company.

I'm starting to think the real plants are the ones posting how great things are and "not to change anything." These could be DAWborg emps laughing all the way to the bank

DF
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:23 PM   #86
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Friends tell you what your enemies won't.

Does that make me a friend or an enemy?
You’re neither a friend or an enemy; I think this forum makes you look like a regular jerk. (sorry, but I have to call a spade a spade)

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Plenty of people rant about this or that on these forums and all forums in fact.
I think it's safe to say that you overstepped the norms of this forum with your attitude. Try to put that aggression to use in extension development; if that doesn’t work for you then find some other software and some other forum users to annoy.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:28 PM   #87
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I think it's safe to say that you overstepped the norms of this forum with your attitude.
That's good.

It's hard to be a pioneer when you're riding with the herd.

And I'd rather hear your true feelings than a PC edited version of them. If you think I'm a jerk, that's fine, and I'm glad you had the honesty to share it without resorting to foul language to do so.

DF
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:35 PM   #88
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That's good.

It's hard to be a pioneer when you're riding with the herd.


DF
Trust me; you're no pioneer. Pioneers actually make progress; you just complain and gripe. Do some development work to implement the features you want if you really want to be (or picture yourself as) a “pioneer.”

I'm done wasting my time on this topic.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:18 PM   #89
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[ ] how to win friends and influence people
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:28 PM   #90
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Trust me; you're no pioneer. Pioneers actually make progress; you just complain and gripe. Do some development work to implement the features you want if you really want to be (or picture yourself as) a “pioneer.”

I'm done wasting my time on this topic.
You said you were done before. Stop crying.

I do want to see features implemented, not just complain.

I'm not interested in building the features for "free", since I do software development for money.

If you're not interested in free advise then don't take it but don't sob away and tell lies about how I'm "just hear to complain".

Hey shoot, deny, or denigrate the messenger, it shows your maturity.

I should know better than to try to argue logic with a bunch of people who are obviously college kids, although you yourself may not be.

DF
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by myself
"On a side note, MIDI CC7 is not really meant as a parameter to be moved. Originally (in the old days) CC7 is set fixed at the start of a song to do the overall leveling and CC11 is used to do the "moving" automation."

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CC7 is not "Fixed" and CC11 is NOT for moving automation!

CC11 is for EXPRESSION control, such as the player dynamically changing the organ volume WHILE PLAYING. CC7 is for Automating/Setting the Level, and CC11 is like a "sub volume" that lets the player dynamically "express" himself musically, while being able to have the expression relative to the track volume.
It's sometimes hard to get things across the language barriere. In yet other words: if you want to go by standard you will want a CC7 for each involved channel at the start of the song [edit:] and make sectional changes if needed (to pull down the verses or something). Continuous[/edit] volume changes during the song should be executed with CC11. [edit:] This is not fixed in MIDI standard papers, maybe recommended, IDK, but it's a long standing agreement between MIDI programmers[/edit]
That's what I tried to say in the above quote and actually you say the same yourself. The point I had in mind was probably that it would be a good idea to be able to switch the track's volume fader to send CC11 optionally, because actually it is CC11 you want moving with an envelope. It was just a side note and most certainly not wrong (maybe mistakably expressed) ...is mistakable a word?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthFader View Post
NOTE: On further reading it seems there is confusion as to whether CC7 actually gets changed to velocity or just the track volume envelope does. Anyone tested this?

DF
Neither. Nothing gets changed to velocity in fact. Pre-FX volume fader and item volume fades just offset the note velocity values as they stream through, so does an envelope for Pre-FX volume. CC7 messages stay unchanged.

Of course it's not a bug, as it is most probably coded to do just that and it works as intended.
Though it's very quick and dirty (it's sorta cool for drums, expecially the item volume handle and fades), and doesn't get in your way at all, I agree with you that it is not the most transparent way to implement velocity offset. Should at least be optional and visible from the GUI.
But of course velocity fades and offset per item and automatable velocity offset per track is undeniably a feature (rather two), no point in quoting the word .

Last edited by gofer; 07-07-2010 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:54 PM   #92
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It's sometimes hard to get things across the language barriere. In yet other words: if you want to go by standard you will want a CC7 for each involved channel at the start of the song. Volume changes during the song should be executed with CC11.
That's what I tried to say in the above quote and actually you say the same yourself. The point I had in mind was probably that it would be a good idea to be able to switch the track's volume fader to send CC11 optionally, because actually it is CC11 you want moving with an envelope. It was just a side note and most certainly not wrong (maybe mistakable expressed) ...is mistakable a word?
Well if I'm reading you correctly it still seems incorrect.

Volume changes DURING the song should still be executed with CC7 and not CC11, except for player controlled "expression" ala "violining" on a guitar.

Example:

I record an organ track and use CC11 to constantly open and close the volume, so that the volume of the organ goes up and down like this
^v^v^v^v^v^v

Then I use CC7 to ramp up and down the volume of the ENTIRE track, whilst CC11 is doing the expression.

Then the track volume would look like

................^v^v^v^v
........... ^v^v.........^v^v
.......^v^v.................^v^v

Make sense? So therefore the CC11 would modulate the volume (below) where the track volume is at any current point in time.

It would not be appropriate to use CC11 as a replacement for CC7 because it wipes out the player controlled pedal.

It's the same as if you recorded volume pedal changes on your guitar with CC11 on a real tape deck. When moving the master fader (CC7) the players volume changes (CC11) would still be heard, not overriden by the track fader (CC7). They are combined. The volume changes from the guitar volume pedal (CC11) would still be there relative to each other, but with the maximum volume being limited by where the track fader (CC7) is. CC7 definitely does move, go open a general midi file of which there are many thousands you will undoubtedly see CC7 used for fadeouts etc.

See this for more information:
http://books.google.com/books?id=4ej...page&q&f=false

DF

Last edited by DarthFader; 07-07-2010 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:36 PM   #93
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more of the same, so it seems....
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:59 PM   #94
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more of the same, so it seems....
Absolutely:

1) I try to bring up valid points
2) Some people get upset
3) You take some snide potshots without advancing the discussion

So definitely in agreement with you here.

Getting back to Reaper, you have as many hours with Reaper as anyone, and even you seemed unclear about the true behavior of what's going on with CC7 and the envelopes.

It seems you were incorrect about some aspects of it, yet correct on others.

If even someone with thousands of hours of Reaper such as yourself, is confused by it, it seems that new and intermediate users certainly would be.

The relationship between Velocity, Volume and Expression is always confusing, just as the relationship between ISO, Shutter and Aperture is confusing to people.

If a Camera company labelled it's Shutter as "Aperture" they would get called out quick on it, same as I did here.

DF

Last edited by DarthFader; 07-07-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:21 PM   #95
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@DarthFader

Thanks for the link to the Google book a few posts back. I had known that Expression (CC11) was a 'subset' of CC7, but that illustrated the difference well.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:33 PM   #96
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Neither. Nothing gets changed to velocity in fact. Pre-FX volume fader and item volume fades just offset the note velocity values as they stream through, so does an envelope for Pre-FX volume. CC7 messages stay unchanged.
OK. Well you and JBM both say that CC7 offsets velocity prefx (which I consider a bug).

Others say that CC7 does not offset velocity but the volume envelopes, etc, do.

It would take a Midi-Ox like plugin to really determine what is going on but it seems at the very least that it's confusing.

If there is a Midi monitor plugin perhaps we can measure what is really going on.

Regardless of what is really going on, my opinion is that NO CC7 messages should EVER offset velocity.

DF
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:24 PM   #97
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OK. Well you and JBM both say that CC7 offsets velocity prefx (which I consider a bug).
DF
Where? To be clear: MIDI CC7 does not in any way touch velocity if you don't use a plugin to do so.


EDIT: Btw, there is a (granted too small but ok for the quick check) logger in ReaControlMIDI and there is JS MIDI logger for the bigger picture if you want to have a look at what's going on inside Reaper. To look at the stuff that streams out of the MIDI hardware outputs, you need an outboard logger of course.

Last edited by gofer; 07-07-2010 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:30 PM   #98
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Where?
You say that on the Flowchart one (although I recall different variants with some of yours saying it does and some saying it doesn't) and JBM Says it on this thread.

Others say it doesn't.

I'm leaving to return a laptop so I don't have time to spend a lot of time quoting and pasting...Sorry...
DF
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:49 PM   #99
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Pretty sure I didn't, quite manageable amount of posts of mine in that thread (3) and I can't find me or someone else saying so. If I did it was certainly totally wrong.
I mean, it's a pretty weird idea... I really don't see where it's coming from?
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:15 PM   #100
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I can't see that JBM said such a thing in this thread. He said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
... pre-fx volume and item volume changes velocity ...
Neither pre-fx volume nor item volume are CC #7.
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:24 PM   #101
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@DarthFader

Does the question involve whether Reaper's handling of CC7 affects the velocity information of notes? From my understanding, the MIDI stream consists of 8-bit bytes. A note-on message contains 3 pieces of information - the note/on(channel) / Keynumber / Velocity, so:

0x91 0x3C 0x40 would be a note-on channel 1 message with Middle C played at a velocity of 64.

The MIDI device then interprets the velocity information passing it through any control changes. I think you already mentioned this, but for multi-layered sample libraries, the velocity information is crucial data for sound timbre. If a fade-out is achieved through reducing velocity values (which wouldn't really work, as velocity is a note-on event, not a recurring instruction like after-touch), then a true fade-out would not be possible. It would be like playing the piano and fading out by simply playing softer and softer until you aren't pressing keys anymore.

I've done a check in Reaper regarding a CC7 fade-out and it seems to interpret the information correctly (I tested it with a sustained pad sound). Further to investigating this, CC7 doesn't appear to affect the velocity layers of VSTs. (I tested this with a layered sample which sounded the different samples at velocity 32, 63 and 127 which CC7 registered different values).
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:07 PM   #102
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Neither pre-fx volume nor item volume are CC #7.
Well perhaps it was a misunderstanding on my part.

To me, "pre-fx volume" meant CC#7 (volume changes) that are applied "pre-fx" meaning could be sent to the VSTi (eg, from ReaControlMidi), versus "post fx" volume fader.

I guess what they mean was if you set the volume FADER itself, to be pre-fx, then it would do that.

DF
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:02 PM   #103
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I was wondering about some of this.

A few versions ago, Reaper added some Midi CC functionality, having to do with volume and pan, but I haven't found it in the version description, I swear I remember something like that.

So, can the track volume or pan be controlled with MIDI CC's at all at this point?

IMO, most important MIDI enhancement would be to have the piano roll view completely independent of all other views, and able to deposit new MIDI items or else extend existing MIDI items from within the PR view.

This could be as simple as making the "View Source" view so that it does not limit itself to the MIDI item (no grey area), but instead can go on forever in either direction, making the MIDI item either grow with it or else depositing new MIDI items.

So, this it seems is a pretty simple modification, maybe, seen in this way.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:56 PM   #104
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So, can the track volume or pan be controlled with MIDI CC's at all at this point?
ReaControlMIDI.
Use it to expose MIDI CC's automation lanes and TCP knobs.
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