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Old 06-17-2019, 12:05 AM   #1
lucor
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Default REAPER becomes a laggy mess with not even 100 tracks

I don't know if this is an actual bug, but it's a real problem for me and makes REAPER an absolute pain to work with in bigger projects.

REAPER is by far the snappiest DAW I know, and it's one of the many reasons why I love it so much and have made the switch after many years of using Cubase.
Unfortunately that snappiness quickly disappears after I've added some VSTi's. Usually I'm not even at 100 tracks before it gets really bad: resizing tracks feels like I have 10fps, drawing in CC curves is extremely choppy, etc...
Is this common? Are there any options in the preferences that I can tweak to make things better?

My specs:
- Windows 10
- i7-7820X @3.6GHz
- 128GB RAM
- 1x 4k monitor, 2x 1080p monitors

Thank you!
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:11 AM   #2
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With 100 tracks, that doesn't sound right. With over 1000 tracks, sure... I wonder if you have a lot of armed tracks, perhaps, or long send chains? Also, which plugins? Do you have some heavy stuff on the master track, like Ozone?
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:30 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
With 100 tracks, that doesn't sound right. With over 1000 tracks, sure... I wonder if you have a lot of armed tracks, perhaps, or long send chains? Also, which plugins? Do you have some heavy stuff on the master track, like Ozone?
I have the "automatic record arm when track selected" option checked by default for every track, I don't know if that makes a difference? So usually only one track is armed at a time.
Nothing is on the master track, I only add stuff there once the project is finished regarding composing, mixing, etc.
Regarding send chains, I don't think they are that long. I attached a screenshot to what is usually the longest chain I have. Kontakt with each mic position routed to its own output -> overall mic folder -> library folder -> Orchestral Section
Is that already too much? And why does that even influence the GUI responsiveness at all?
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File Type: png 17-06-_2019_09-28-50.png (43.4 KB, 151 views)
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:46 AM   #4
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Can you try the same track layout just without folders?
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:02 AM   #5
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I just opened up a problematic project with 138 tracks and 'dissolved' every folder in there, so that no folder track is left at all (is that what you meant?), but I can't spot any difference, still extremely slow and laggy.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:05 AM   #6
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The kind of lag you describe is not normal. Try reserving one core at least for REAPER in Kontakt preferences?

Also in REAPER preferences, try playing with the buffering settings. Thread priority or anticipative processing. And maybe in FX browser, set Kontakt to Run as... dedicated process

I assume you are using Kontakt, because most of people having CPU problems are using Kontakt with many tracks too.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:13 AM   #7
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Ok I think I might have found the problem, which is the 4k monitor?! When I move the project window over to one of my 1080p monitors and draw in CC data in there it's snappy as hell, just like a 1 track project is on the 4k monitor.
Is this normal? Anything that can be done about it?

@heda: Thanks, I'll play around with those settings, though my CPU isn't making any problems I think.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:21 AM   #8
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Yeah 4K monitors need to draw 4x more pixels than standard 1080p monitors. Reaper doesn't use GPU accelleration so everything falls onto the CPU, including any rescaling necessary...

Reaper is not fully HiDPI compliant yet, so if you can, don't use 4K monitors just yet if you can help it.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yeah 4K monitors need to draw 4x more pixels than standard 1080p monitors. Reaper doesn't use GPU accelleration so everything falls onto the CPU, including any rescaling necessary...

Reaper is not fully HiDPI compliant yet, so if you can, don't use 4K monitors just yet if you can help it.
That's a real shame, I don't really want to give up my 4k monitor and all the additional screen real estate. And I'd really hate to go back to Cubase, but all this lagginess is no fun at all and basically kills all the great workflow advantages that I gain with REAPER over Cubase.

Do you know by any chance if there are any plans by the devs to add GPU accelleration or HiDPI compliance in the near future?
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:45 AM   #10
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there are some hiDPI settings hidden in preferences general./advanced UI.... and they are working on more compatibility, but I don't think performance would be so bad with 4K to be like 10fps just because having 4K resolution. I haven't used on 4K monitor but I didn't have lag with 3 monitors and old computer.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucor View Post
That's a real shame, I don't really want to give up my 4k monitor and all the additional screen real estate. And I'd really hate to go back to Cubase, but all this lagginess is no fun at all and basically kills all the great workflow advantages that I gain with REAPER over Cubase.

Do you know by any chance if there are any plans by the devs to add GPU accelleration or HiDPI compliance in the near future?
As a stopgap measure, until Reaper supports 4K better, and if your video card supports multiple monitors, you could maybe buy another, secondhand monitor (or two) to tide you over? I picked up two 21" HD monitors on Gumtree recently for £60...
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:10 AM   #12
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He already has 2x 1080p monitors alongside 4K, if you'll read the first post
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:11 AM   #13
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Oh yeah...
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:03 PM   #14
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Changing my monitor setup isn't really an option, all my workflows and everything else I do on my computer besides REAPER is designed to work with this 3 monitor setup.
Turning off the 4k monitor when using REAPER and using only the two 1080p displays is also not really a solution, since my desk is very constricted and I'd basically have to work with 2 monitors at the opposite sites of the desk.
As much as I hate it, I don't think I have much choice but to return to Cubase for my 'serious' projects and wait for potential fixes in the future.
I hope this won't take too long, because in almost everything else I never felt so 'free' and unconstricted in my workflow as I do with REAPER. Don't think I've ever had so much fun with a DAW.
Thanks everyone!
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:15 PM   #15
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Might wanna check the latest prerelease and see how it behaves.
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Old 06-19-2019, 03:06 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucor View Post
I don't know if this is an actual bug, but it's a real problem for me and makes REAPER an absolute pain to work with in bigger projects.

REAPER is by far the snappiest DAW I know, and it's one of the many reasons why I love it so much and have made the switch after many years of using Cubase.
Unfortunately that snappiness quickly disappears after I've added some VSTi's. Usually I'm not even at 100 tracks before it gets really bad: resizing tracks feels like I have 10fps, drawing in CC curves is extremely choppy, etc...
Is this common? Are there any options in the preferences that I can tweak to make things better?

My specs:
- Windows 10
- i7-7820X @3.6GHz
- 128GB RAM
- 1x 4k monitor, 2x 1080p monitors

Thank you!
I'm experiencing the same problem with my two 4K 60hz monitors. UI becomes laggy after I've inserted a lot of tracks (50+). I see the laggyness especially in the mixer view when moving the faders and also with sezing the track hight.
Switching between screensets is also taking a lot of time (15 seconds, instead of 5)

Please make reaper more 4k ready and implement GPU hardware acceleration!
For now I'll try the new alpha version and post my findings.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:31 AM   #17
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In these instances, how many tracks are on screen at once, in both the cases of using the 4k display and the 1080 displays?
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:08 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
In these instances, how many tracks are on screen at once, in both the cases of using the 4k display and the 1080 displays?
It definitely gets worse the more tracks are visible.

On the 4k monitor:
In the aforementioned project with 138 tracks, lag is the worst with everything on display.
When I only show one single track and hide everything else, things like resizing a TCP are basically just as snappy as in a fresh project with a single track.
When I make a single track visible step-by-step, I notice the first lag with around 20 tracks (at that point it's still pretty minor though). This also seems to be project independent, I start to notice the same lag at 20 tracks in an empty project with 20 empty tracks.

On the 1080p monitors
Here with all 138 tracks visible, resizing a TCP is still very laggy though not as bad as on the 4k display (here it takes around 60 tracks until I notice the first stuttering).

Snappiness in the Midi Editor also seems related to how much midi data is visible in there. I usually like to have all midi data visible at once for orchestration and arranging purposes.
On the 4k, when I hide all the midi data except for the track that I'm working on, drawing CC data is alot snappier, with only some minor stuttering.
On the 1080p display however, I can have all midi data shown in the editor and drawing CC is still perfectly snappy.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:20 AM   #19
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That's some good additional info!
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucor View Post
It definitely gets worse the more tracks are visible.

On the 4k monitor:
In the aforementioned project with 138 tracks, lag is the worst with everything on display.
When I only show one single track and hide everything else, things like resizing a TCP are basically just as snappy as in a fresh project with a single track.
When I make a single track visible step-by-step, I notice the first lag with around 20 tracks (at that point it's still pretty minor though). This also seems to be project independent, I start to notice the same lag at 20 tracks in an empty project with 20 empty tracks.

On the 1080p monitors
Here with all 138 tracks visible, resizing a TCP is still very laggy though not as bad as on the 4k display (here it takes around 60 tracks until I notice the first stuttering).

Snappiness in the Midi Editor also seems related to how much midi data is visible in there. I usually like to have all midi data visible at once for orchestration and arranging purposes.
On the 4k, when I hide all the midi data except for the track that I'm working on, drawing CC data is alot snappier, with only some minor stuttering.
On the 1080p display however, I can have all midi data shown in the editor and drawing CC is still perfectly snappy.
Thanks! Would you mind sending one of these projects (with all plug-ins removed, but the real-world MIDI data) to support at cockos dot com? Thanks!
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Old 06-19-2019, 04:16 PM   #21
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I got the project, thank you. Testing on a mid-2012 RMBP in Win10 in unscaled mode, so that's 2880x1800. Everything works really well to be honest. I will try a full 4k display tomorrow. I tested various zoom levels and scrolling in the arrange view (from having as much of the project in-view as possible, to zooming in on various parts), as well as the MIDI editor (opening all project MIDI in the one editor). I penciled some automation in the arrange, and some CCs in the MIDI editor. Everything was pretty fast.

What audio device and samplerate and block size are you using? Does setting Preferences/Audio/"Close audio device when stopped", and having the audio device stopped improve things?

Do you have any control surfaces configured in Preferences/Control Surfaces?

If you install a fresh portable install and load this project, how does it perform?
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:22 PM   #22
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What a great thread.

And a good read, as well.
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Old 06-20-2019, 12:23 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I got the project, thank you. Testing on a mid-2012 RMBP in Win10 in unscaled mode, so that's 2880x1800. Everything works really well to be honest. I will try a full 4k display tomorrow. I tested various zoom levels and scrolling in the arrange view (from having as much of the project in-view as possible, to zooming in on various parts), as well as the MIDI editor (opening all project MIDI in the one editor). I penciled some automation in the arrange, and some CCs in the MIDI editor. Everything was pretty fast.
That's definitely weird. If you have an empty project with let's say 500 empty tracks, are things still snappy for you? At that point REAPER gets almost unusable for me (and a template of 500 tracks is still considered small ).
Here's a quick video of a project with 500 empty tracks for demonstration:
https://youtu.be/RFenxa-f62o
And here's how the midi editor looks in a project with 396 tracks:
https://youtu.be/gXAxRMr665Y
(BTW one thing I just noticed in the midi editor: turning off note names has a not huge but noticeable positive effect on the sluggishness in the midi editor.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
What audio device and samplerate and block size are you using?
Audio device is a Komplete Audio 6 from Native Instruments, sample rate is usually 44100. I attached a screenshot of my audio settings. And "block size to use when rendering" is blank for me if that is relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Does setting Preferences/Audio/"Close audio device when stopped", and having the audio device stopped improve things?
No, doesn't seem to make a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Do you have any control surfaces configured in Preferences/Control Surfaces?
Just a Presonus FaderPort (the old one, not the newest iteration).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
If you install a fresh portable install and load this project, how does it perform?
Unfortunately no difference here either. In fact it's actually a bit worse?! Could also be my brain playing tricks on me.



Thanks for all your efforts so far!
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Last edited by lucor; 06-20-2019 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:40 AM   #24
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The track panel resizing being slow -- ok, that's a specific case -- the main arrange view editing (e.g. drawing automation or pencil drawing a new MIDI item, etc) should still be relatively fast in that case, though, right?

As far as the MIDI editor slowness (edit): aha, yes, it does slow down if *all contexts are editable*. Being visible is fine, but drawing CCs into a lane with all contexts editable, is indeed slow(er).
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Old 06-20-2019, 10:51 AM   #25
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Just tested on the mid-2012 RMBP w/ Win10, 4k display @60Hz via HDMI. Everything worked pretty well and fast with the project you sent.

Did I see correctly your audio interface is running with a block size of 1024 samples?

What display scaling settings do you have set in Windows?

Is REAPER set to be HiDPI aware (in preferences/General/Advanced)?

Any difference between 5.979 and 5.979+devXX?

Can you send a copy of your reaper.ini to support at cockos dot com? thanks!

Last edited by Justin; 06-20-2019 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:14 AM   #26
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Here's a little test I did (win10, 2012 RMBP, 4k display, 5.979+dev0619-ish):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7h5SP7HLiU
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:49 AM   #27
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*Chuckle*, Justin you are using a Reaper evaluation license

Okay, fun aside...

@lucor, there's just something that came into my mind. Can you check, if your
CPU speed is changing (task manager), when Reaper is running?

Cubase has this power profile, that always sets all CPUs to full speed.
I could imagine, that your CPU is running at lower speed, unless you have turned off all the C-states (which I always do, when I get a new machine).
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Old 06-25-2019, 12:00 PM   #28
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Sorry for the late reply, I crashed hard with a stomach bug the last couple of days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Did I see correctly your audio interface is running with a block size of 1024 samples?
Depends on how far I am into the project, I usually start out at 64 and end up at 1024 at the mixing stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
What display scaling settings do you have set in Windows?
None, everything is at 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Is REAPER set to be HiDPI aware (in preferences/General/Advanced)?
It wasn't. Just turned it to "Aware", but can't make out a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Any difference between 5.979 and 5.979+devXX?
No, looks the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Can you send a copy of your reaper.ini to support at cockos dot com? thanks!
Sending now....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Here's a little test I did (win10, 2012 RMBP, 4k display, 5.979+dev0619-ish):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7h5SP7HLiU
Yup, that looks quite a lot better than what I am experiencing. Really wondering what's going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
@lucor, there's just something that came into my mind. Can you check, if your
CPU speed is changing (task manager), when Reaper is running?
Thanks Stevie, I checked it out, but the CPU speed stays the same. I'm not sure about my C-States settings, but the computer was built by a professional audio PC builder here in Germany (Digital AudionetworX), so I guess they already did that.
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Old 06-25-2019, 01:11 PM   #29
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Thanks, I've now tested with your ini, and it's still fine here.

Can you test without any MIDI devices open and without any control surfaces configured? Also, test with using WaveOut and a 1024 sample blocksize (rather than ASIO)?

Additionally: try going to preferences/buffering, unchecking auto-detect the number of threads, and manually enter something like 4. (what was it detecting? 16?).
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Thanks, I've now tested with your ini, and it's still fine here.

Can you test without any MIDI devices open and without any control surfaces configured? Also, test with using WaveOut and a 1024 sample blocksize (rather than ASIO)?
Ok, I disabled all MIDI devices in the preferences (is that what you meant?), removed the Faderport from the control surfaces and changed to WaveOut, but still no change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Additionally: try going to preferences/buffering, unchecking auto-detect the number of threads, and manually enter something like 4. (what was it detecting? 16?).
Yes, it's detecting 16. Changing it to 4 also doesn't make a difference.
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Old 07-01-2019, 10:52 AM   #31
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Well, I guess I'm shit out of luck for now?

I'm in a bit of a dilemma at the moment, because I kind of need to go back to Cubase to not lose my mind over the unresponsive UI, but when I'm in Cubase I'm losing my mind over it's now antiquated feeling workflow compared to REAPER.

I don't know if GPU acceleration would solve these UI problems, but I hope you'll consider implementing it or can find another solution.
I've been wanting to finally leave Cubase behind for so long, and I'm SO close!
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Old 07-01-2019, 02:53 PM   #32
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May be stupid, but can you open Performance Monitor in REAPER and system monitor in Windows and check the numbers when things are lagging? So, what exactly is lagging? Note there can be some other REAPER related processes, but not REAPER itself.

A bit surprising for me results on 10 years old "Celeron" (CoreDuo), resizing one track:
* 100 empty tracks:
- not laggy, REAPER - 40% CPU, dwm.exe - 13%, Interrupts - 5%
* 500 empty tracks:
- laggy, REAPER - 40%, dwm.exe - 30%, Interrupts - 5%.

Hm... REAPER is drawing not visible tracks?
(Cakewalk shows no increase for dwm, which stay at 5% with any number of empty tracks and not lagging resizing).

Win10, REAPER 5.979, graphics GTX1050Ti, E7500
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:21 PM   #33
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Seems like im having same bug

for example:
resizing track with action
SWS/wol: Adjust envelope or track height under mouse cursor (MIDI CC relative/mousewheel)
takes about 1.5 sec per single height adjust (one small step)


bug occurs with 80+ tracks (most of them are collapsed into folders and muted, so basically shouldn't be even drawn every refresh I think?)
when I hide most of them in track manager on tcp, it's back to normal... but i need have this tracks laying around


also video (with ffmpeg) are a bit laggy from time to time. It's not "instant". Sometimes it takes like 2 secounds to video start showing picture


My setup:
4k display
dual cpu intel xeon x5660
42 gb ram
geforce 750 ti

i have tried i think every settings tweak i considered and found in this thread too. nothing works
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