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Old 12-03-2018, 05:17 PM   #1
future fields
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Default Really struggling with this mix, any advice appreciated

Hey guys

I am working on my first album that is intended to be a finished product. Been at it for a few months now. I am really struggling on the mixing.

https://soundcloud.com/mikethemental...emo-1232018-v2

Any advice on how to make this mix punchier and just overall better sounding? Or any feedback you can give, much thanks. It's intended to be an aggressive sounding mix but with more classic rock tonality on the guitars than metal if that makes sense.

What I have on here is

Drums, stereo
Bass, mono center
Rhythm guitars, double track hard panned left right, hpf @ 160hz
Lead guitars, one main one harmony, centered, hpf @ 160hz
no reverbs or delays or anything like that, it's a fairly dense mix so I think would be better kept dry
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:57 AM   #2
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Couple things in mind already, that ive been trying with mixed success

1. Lower gain on guitars but without the song losing its aggressive edge. When I try to lower gain on the guitars they lose their power. But i do want cleaner sounding guitars.

2. Getting the kick drum to punch through the mix, having limited success with that due to the wall of sound of guitars and bass. Bass needs to stay strong to give the song a good foundation.


My main reference albums are

The Mars Volta 'Deloused in the Comatorium'
Coheed and Cambria 'In Keeping Secrets of Silent Earth"

My album will not have vocals but instrumentally want it in the same ballpark as these albums
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:59 AM   #3
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I probably can't listen for about 10 hours from now but happy to once I get home tonight.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:38 AM   #4
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The music is really cool, so you've nailed the hardest bit!

One trick you might use is to blend a cleaner guitar signal in, to have the best of both worlds in terms of distortion, dynamics and intelligibility.

I think your main problem is a buildup of mud between 100-300 Hz. The bass is boomy and is swamping the rest of the instruments a bit much. The snare is competing too much with the rhythm guitars too.

If you want the kick to punch through then give it some more high mids.

It might be worth a go panning the lead guitars slightly, just to leave room for kick/snare/bass.

Decide if you want you drums to be outside your rhythm guitars or your rhythm guitars to be outside your drums. Both are super wide at the moment. Automating width to make some sections have more impact might be a good idea too.

Don't be afraid to use automation in general to move the "spotlight" - drum fills, cool guitar parts etc...

It's in no way terrible as it is though - I could happily listen to it.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
The music is really cool, so you've nailed the hardest bit!

One trick you might use is to blend a cleaner guitar signal in, to have the best of both worlds in terms of distortion, dynamics and intelligibility.

I think your main problem is a buildup of mud between 100-300 Hz. The bass is boomy and is swamping the rest of the instruments a bit much. The snare is competing too much with the rhythm guitars too.

If you want the kick to punch through then give it some more high mids.

It might be worth a go panning the lead guitars slightly, just to leave room for kick/snare/bass.

Decide if you want you drums to be outside your rhythm guitars or your rhythm guitars to be outside your drums. Both are super wide at the moment. Automating width to make some sections have more impact might be a good idea too.

Don't be afraid to use automation in general to move the "spotlight" - drum fills, cool guitar parts etc...

It's in no way terrible as it is though - I could happily listen to it.
Really appreciate the comments

I am trying to have my bass cut through like Flea, but at the same time my mix has way more guitars than what flea plays on so not sure if possible

I bumped 200hz huge, pre compression, hoping that compression would smooth the bump out but still leave enougg that it cuts through tge mix without interfering with the kick drum

I want my kick drum to provide the lower thump so boost 50-60hz there with a tight bell and have the bass guitar fill in the upper bass/mid bass so I bump 200hz by 9db there pre compression on the ssl strip

I will experiment with less of a bump. The 200hz bump is nice because that way the high strings sound thick as well. If you bump lower bass it doesnt help the high strings as much in my experience.

Im going to try moving the hpf up on guitars a little more to leave more room for bass, then maybe i can get away with less 200hz on the bass
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:28 PM   #6
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I think the guitars are fine, I'd cut a bit of the bass low mids. If you want the bass to cut through then give it some upper mids and perhaps blend in a distorted track to get more upper harmonics from it.

You're right that you won't get the bass to cut through like flea with all those guitars. It's all in the arrangement!
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:17 PM   #7
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If one of the goals is to better hear the bass, then I'd lower the volume of the main electric distortion guitar and/or would make some EQ cuts to thin it out a bit and/or would play with the drive distortion settings (less) to knock some growl out.

Doing this would give the bass and drums more space. Only then, would it be possible to start playing around with the sonic characteristics of the bass and/or drums. As it stands I can't really hear them well enough to suggest changes; only perhaps that the bass seems muddy?

As it stands the song is mostly an enraged electric distortion guitar sonic experience, which is not a bad thing if that is the objective.

For my taste, there would be more entertainment value if we heard all the instruments properly, perhaps each having some allotted segments of time where they are made to shine, and of course having segments for all the rage to blur the scene where the electric distortion guitar is dominating.
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Old 12-04-2018, 08:26 PM   #8
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Gave a quick listen, I agree with Judders on the performance, great job! These few things crossed my mind...

I would raise the kick by 3dB@80hz and cut it 3dB @1k or... bump the entire mix up 2dB @80hz. I'd cut the center guitar 1dB@500Hz or consider cutting the entire mix 1/2 db@400-500Hz. I think that would make a subtle, but noticeable difference in the overall punch/impact.

I'm tempted to say get a similar result by just turning the guitars down a tad but the kick still sounds like it could use a pinch more boomph instead of kuuhh (like those mean the same to anyone LOL ). That kick observation is purely taste, other than I think it's mids are leaning into guitar and the lower half of the snare territory.

The only other thing I noticed is in lower dynamic sections, it sounds like the drums are in a room but the guitars in a dry booth. YMMV/taste, just an observation while listening - all of these are nitpicks by the way, great track!
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:29 PM   #9
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Really appreciate the insights guys. Thanks for taking the time to listen.

I've already implemented a few changes with some success. Lowered the gain on all guitars a hair while also cutting some more 300hz and boosting a little more 3.5khz.

Lowered the midbass on the bass guitar but thinking about putting some back because I think I took too much.

Using the Width knob on the drum bus, lowered that from 100 to 50%. Cut some midbass there as well as boosting some more 60hz and cut some 3.5khz. Lowered the amount of room on the drums as well.

Things are definitely sounding clearer if a little less thick/warm. I think ill come back tommorow, reevaluate what I've done and post an update.

@karbo you are correct the drums have room sound but all the other instruments are 100% dry so far. I'm trying to get frequency balance and dynamic working before I attempt to add reverb. With this type of arrangement I think the main guitars sound better with no reverb.
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:26 AM   #10
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Damn nice job
performance is nice and tight
mix is punchy !

too much verb on kick in beginning but sounds better in middle of song
guitars sound thin (too much verb ?)
bass missing bottom in beginning but sounds better in middle of song

cymbals too loud
hi hats a bit too loud
nice snare sound
turn the bass up more

I think you got better through the mix.
The intro mix quality I thought was poor but halfway through this
thing lit up !

monitored on KRK Rokit 8 with 10" sub at 85dB with speakers 2 ft from head

The final mix sounds a bit over compressed. I like more dynamic range.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:34 AM   #11
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Really appreciate yall taking the time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Damn nice job
performance is nice and tight
mix is punchy !

too much verb on kick in beginning but sounds better in middle of song
guitars sound thin (too much verb ?)
bass missing bottom in beginning but sounds better in middle of song

cymbals too loud
hi hats a bit too loud
nice snare sound
turn the bass up more

I think you got better through the mix.
The intro mix quality I thought was poor but halfway through this
thing lit up !

monitored on KRK Rokit 8 with 10" sub at 85dB with speakers 2 ft from head

The final mix sounds a bit over compressed. I like more dynamic range.
Believe it or not there is no reverb on the track at all except for the natural room sound the drums were recorded.

I think some of the guitar parts sound like they have a delay effect because of the way I arrange the parts. For the lead parts, they are often in different time signatures. So say the song is 4/4, I'll do a lead in 4/4 and the harmony in 3/4 so that there is a revolving effect to where the notes overlap. The harmonies are always changing that way and can sound like a delay effect at times. I like my songs to sort of be like a whirlwind of organized chaos, upon which the structure and shape of the thing is constantly evolving and the "hooks" become more apparent with repeated listening.


Thanks again for the suggestions and kind words!
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:14 PM   #12
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I did some more work on it, but honestly at this point not sure which one I like better. The new one has more clarity but less warmth. The kick drum should be hitting harder now.

https://soundcloud.com/mikethemental...mo-12052018-v2
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:16 AM   #13
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Drums are better in this mix, especially the kick. Lets focus on the bass guitar as everything else is quite good in my opinion. You said that you want the bass to punch through. To me the bass tone is quite "round" without much attack. It is a sound that I like, but it will be difficult to get this to punch through. It might be worth playing with compression to give the bass less sustain. The way that the bass guitar intertwines with the other guitar makes me feel that the bass should be almost equal in emphasis to the guitars. To my ear there are times when the bass is right there with the guitars, but at other times it seems to get lost in the mix. You can probably solve some of that using a volume envelope on the bass and doing some manual tweaking. Your last tweaks created some space for the bass guitar, now just fill that space and you are good to go. I think that you are getting really close to a mix that you will really like.

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Old 12-07-2018, 12:23 PM   #14
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Ugh I am so far from my goal lol

Way too much bass in my kick

Too much energy in the low mids at some times and not enough at others

I really have a hard time accurately hearing my music especially the low end I'll think ill have it nailed but when I come back to it the next day

Back to the drawing board

Reference mix:
https://youtu.be/vzRFlXbq-cY
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:03 PM   #15
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Since I can't download the Soundcloud mix, I cannot listen through room correction software in Reaper, but:
Have a look at your snare. To me this is the one loudly peaking element that is responsible for the tubbiness of an overall really good (I think at least ) mix. From the top of my head: cut some 400Hz and add a little (!) splashy sparkle on top (or the sparkle is in the overheads - sorry I can't hear it properly!?). Compression is probably okay, like you've heard it in the reference mix, which is really (too) dense.

Thumbs up!

[and compress/clip the master!]
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future fields View Post
Ugh I am so far from my goal lol

Way too much bass in my kick

Too much energy in the low mids at some times and not enough at others

I really have a hard time accurately hearing my music especially the low end I'll think ill have it nailed but when I come back to it the next day

Back to the drawing board

Reference mix:
https://youtu.be/vzRFlXbq-cY
Tbh, it was presentable from the get go. I think you are overthinking things. There is no such thing as "nailed" beyond the individual, it's all relative and personal taste. Just take a week and listen to nothing but songs from all different genres for the last 50 years, mixes are ALL OVER THE MAP so don't worry too much.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:21 PM   #17
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That's true, karbomusic

But anyway, to the OP: Do you have access to the original album (read: no stream/youtube)? Who else thinks this reference track doesn't really sound "good"? To my ears it's small, congested and cheaply overlimited. I'd struggle to adapt to that sound, too.

[But maybe it indeed sounds like this. I remember buying the second Grizzly Bear album on vinyl with included download code. I hated the vinyl and guess what: the digital files weren't any better - kind of in the same vein of this example.]
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:27 PM   #18
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That's true, karbomusic

But anyway, to the OP: Do you have access to the original album (read: no stream/youtube)? Who else thinks this reference track doesn't really sound "good"? To my ears it's small, congested and cheaply overlimited. I'd struggle to adapt to that sound, too.
I probably missed the reference mix we are talking about but generally from an overall mix perspective, streaming it shouldn't be the deal breaker here unless its something terrible like 64kbs. But I don't really use reference mixes for the very all over the map thing I mentioned earlier. I may listen to music for an afternoon, then pop up my mix to see how it affects me in contrast, but I'm sort of against trying to match someone else's production - my personal subjective nitpick though.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:55 PM   #19
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I don't understand why I need to cut all of the bass out of my mix for the frequency analyzer to show a flat response at the low end like my reference album

My mix straight off the mixbus doesnt even have that much bass but shows a huge hump in the analyzer from 200hz and down

I literally have to cut all the bass so my master sounds like a telephone call for the low end to look the same, something has to be off here

Is there something "wrong" with the sound that could cause higher db reading than should be heard?

It just sounds like my mix is eating up more db's than it should

When I stream my song in between Mars Volta songs it just lacks all of the energy, i try to cut bass and mids and slam the limiter (Limiter no6 way better limiter than my 2003 reference album could have used) and everything starts to turn to mush before it even approaches the power and impact of my reference albums

Not just Mars Volta, anyl modern alternative rock band Foo Fighters, Queens of the Stone Age how are these guys getting such loud masters that arent distorted mushy messes yet they have more low end in everything than my mixes do despite the frequency analyzer showing MY master as having way more volume in the bass?
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Old 12-08-2018, 03:10 AM   #20
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When I stream my song in between Mars Volta songs it just lacks all of the energy, i try to cut bass and mids and slam the limiter (Limiter no6 way better limiter than my 2003 reference album could have used) and everything starts to turn to mush before it even approaches the power and impact of my reference albums

Not just Mars Volta, anyl modern alternative rock band Foo Fighters, Queens of the Stone Age how are these guys getting such loud masters that arent distorted mushy messes yet they have more low end in everything than my mixes do despite the frequency analyzer showing MY master as having way more volume in the bass?
This is a question every one asks themselves at some point.

I'm still asking myself that, so can't give you definitive answers, but I would say that you have to pick your battles in the bass range - decide where the bass is living and cut the rest, find where certain notes resonate more than others and use dynamic EQ to compress them, use multi band compression across the whole mix (attack and release times will dictate whether you kill or enhance your mix), check that you bass waveform is symmetrical, fix with an all-ass filter if not...
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Old 12-08-2018, 05:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
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This is a question every one asks themselves at some point.

I'm still asking myself that, so can't give you definitive answers, but I would say that you have to pick your battles in the bass range - decide where the bass is living and cut the rest, find where certain notes resonate more than others and use dynamic EQ to compress them, use multi band compression across the whole mix (attack and release times will dictate whether you kill or enhance your mix), check that you bass waveform is symmetrical, fix with an all-ass filter if not...
As a general rule have a high pass filter with a sharp Rolloff at 50 Cycles on the master bus. there are all kinds of reasons for low frequencies to show up. I was creating a snare in the style of AC DC using one of their samples there was all kinds of low-frequency contact below hundred Cycles and this is a snare. Same thing happened to me using a Boston rhythm guitar track.
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future fields View Post
I literally have to cut all the bass so my master sounds like a telephone call for the low end to look the same, something has to be off here.

--- 8< ---

[...] that arent distorted mushy messes yet they have more low end in everything than my mixes do despite the frequency analyzer showing MY master as having way more volume in the bass?
Your first observation brings up the question if your room is treated or if you have any proper room correction software running?
This is connected to observation #2: I don't hear that there's a lot of low end in the Mars Volta example and yes, it is more or less a distorted mushy mess.

IMO you absolutely need to create an optimized listening situation, otherwise everything will be off all the time. Relying on an analyzer doesn't help much in a finished master, since you just don't know which mix element occupies which frequency space.
Something you cannot hear, you cannot mix.
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:50 AM   #23
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sent a pm with new mix
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Your first observation brings up the question if your room is treated or if you have any proper room correction software running?
This is connected to observation #2: I don't hear that there's a lot of low end in the Mars Volta example and yes, it is more or less a distorted mushy mess.

IMO you absolutely need to create an optimized listening situation, otherwise everything will be off all the time. Relying on an analyzer doesn't help much in a finished master, since you just don't know which mix element occupies which frequency space.
Something you cannot hear, you cannot mix.


My room is not treated at all right now, I'm mixing this in my apartment with headphones for the most part. I have JBL 305's but they are pretty much useless in my untreated room, cant trust them at all.

My neighbors will complain if they hear any music so I am mostly using headphones and a spectrum analyzer to try and get things where I want them.


@coachz Awesome! I'll listen too it soon

I can post a pre-limited version if anybody wants to take a stab at that
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
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My room is not treated at all right now, I'm mixing this in my apartment with headphones for the most part. I have JBL 305's but they are pretty much useless in my untreated room, cant trust them at all.

My neighbors will complain if they hear any music so I am mostly using headphones and a spectrum analyzer to try and get things where I want them.


@coachz Awesome! I'll listen too it soon

I can post a pre-limited version if anybody wants to take a stab at that
Headphones suck for getting bass right. It helps to know when neighbors are gone or to live on a few acres of land !
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:15 AM   #26
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Listened to both mixes and feel that they sound very live. Like watching a band from the side of a stage in a smaller, intimate venue.

Will post more thoughts later, dinner calls
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:26 PM   #27
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This is mostly personal preference, but I'd suggest boosting low end (and/or adding samples with low end) on drums (and maybe on bass as well) and maybe adding some distortion (probably on a parallel track) to the bass guitar.

I haven't read all the other comments so someone may have offered this already, but I'd be happy to help out with mixing if you wanted, even if it was just to show you some possible techniques or approaches to things.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:32 PM   #28
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I think a found what may be eating some of my headroom!

Check this out (see attachments)

I noticed that my template produces DC offset. Probably one of my amp sims or virtual synths, which are all enabled and running even if im not using them.

I found a DC filter in the JS effects and it seems to get rid of that super low frequency information.
Attached Images
File Type: png DC1.PNG (31.3 KB, 94 views)
File Type: png DC2.PNG (26.5 KB, 92 views)
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Old 12-08-2018, 04:10 PM   #29
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This is mostly personal preference, but I'd suggest boosting low end (and/or adding samples with low end) on drums (and maybe on bass as well) and maybe adding some distortion (probably on a parallel track) to the bass guitar.

I haven't read all the other comments so someone may have offered this already, but I'd be happy to help out with mixing if you wanted, even if it was just to show you some possible techniques or approaches to things.
I remixed it and removed base at 25 Cycles and actually turn down Bass about 1 decibel to 80 Cycles. What system are you monitoring through I find a lot of people that offer mixing advice when they're listening to an iPhone I just want to make sure we're comparing apples and apples. I'm using krk rokit 8 with a 10-inch subwoofer
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Old 12-08-2018, 05:18 PM   #30
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Dynaudio LYD48s and Adam AX7s in a treated room FYI and in the very first mix 80hz was clearly a tad low for my tastes - well at least for the kick as I only had the full mix in my hands - which is key, there is no such thing as the prefect frequency balance, it's taste in certain areas.
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:10 PM   #31
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Dynaudio LYD48s and Adam AX7s in a treated room FYI and in the very first mix 80hz was clearly a tad low for my tastes - well at least for the kick as I only had the full mix in my hands - which is key, there is no such thing as the prefect frequency balance, it's taste in certain areas.
I'm gonna drive up and show you how to mix once you dig out all the snow coming tonight ! 😁
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:02 PM   #32
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I'm gonna drive up and show you how to mix once you dig out all the snow coming tonight ! 😁
Yea, I bet you are, dream on baby!
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:08 PM   #33
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dc_remove to the rescue again. The greatest plugin in history.
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:04 AM   #34
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Yea, I bet you are, dream on baby!
I would like to see your setup sometime. You're a quick drive. I'll see if Kenny wants to go too.
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Old 12-09-2018, 07:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
I would like to see your setup sometime. You're a quick drive. I'll see if Kenny wants to go too.
We really should hang out.
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:10 AM   #36
OpIvy
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I have pretty poor credentials but I'll chime in anyway...
I really liking this mix- the kick sounds nice and punchy.
But I second that previous suggestion about a little distortion on a parallel track for the bass. I know it's helped me when the bass sounds too rounded and doesn't cut through enough. Gotta roll off a lot of bottom end on it though and sometimes give it a fair bit of compression.
However, I'd be happy with where it's at
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Old 12-10-2018, 10:30 AM   #37
future fields
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Hey all,

Thanks for checking out my track I really appreciate the feedback.

I went back to the drawing board on the drums and went with a more gentle low frequency extension and also extended the high frequencies. I cut some 200hz from the bass guitar, opened up the rhythm guitars some and adjusted levels on everything a bit.

https://soundcloud.com/mikethemental...-demo-12102018



And here's another track, this one kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum. Still a little crazy but with cleaner guitar tones and a more traditional song structure.

https://soundcloud.com/mikethemental...-demo-12102018



Also due to lack of time I had to upload these as MP3's whereas the last ones were WAV not sure really at all how Soundcloud processes these files once uploaded.
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