Old 04-09-2019, 03:03 PM   #1
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Default v5.974+dev0409 - April 9 2019

v5.974+dev0409 - April 9 2019
+ API: add support for GetSetProjectInfo_String(RENDER_FORMAT)
+ Automation items: remove preference to attach automation items to the underlying envelope (superseded by per-automation-item transition time setting)

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Old 04-09-2019, 03:09 PM   #2
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Where can I find info on how to use GetSetProjectInfo_String in my scripts? I'd like to test out a script for changing channel output from mono to stereo
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Old 04-09-2019, 03:28 PM   #3
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woop. crash when mousing around the corners of this AI:

looks like more than just the corners. i can't even create an AI and move it without this crash.

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Old 04-09-2019, 03:57 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Nostrap View Post
Where can I find info on how to use GetSetProjectInfo_String in my scripts? I'd like to test out a script for changing channel output from mono to stereo
https://github.com/Ultraschall/ultra...rings-docs.txt
https://github.com/Ultraschall/ultra...ruary-2019.txt

...by mespotine.

Not sure though does it works same on different machines and is it possible to simplify it (like available format + flags) and apply as integers or some kind of data using lua string library (like GetSetAllMIDIEvts) or right from REAPER.

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Old 04-09-2019, 04:01 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
woop. crash when mousing around the corners of this AI:

looks like more than just the corners. i can't even create an AI and move it without this crash.
Hmm can you give me a .rpp and reaper.ini?
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Old 04-09-2019, 04:04 PM   #6
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Where can I find info on how to use GetSetProjectInfo_String in my scripts? I'd like to test out a script for changing channel output from mono to stereo
Mono/stereo isn't in the render format, but you can use
Code:
reaper.GetSetProjectInfo(0,"RENDER_CHANNELS",2,true)
for stereo (1 for mono, etc)
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
woop. crash when mousing around the corners of this AI:

looks like more than just the corners. i can't even create an AI and move it without this crash.

Thanks, fixing. Turns out all you need to do is drag the first envelope point in an envelope to the right, then mouseover the left segment. oops.
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:13 PM   #8
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Mono/stereo isn't in the render format, but you can use
Code:
reaper.GetSetProjectInfo(0,"RENDER_CHANNELS",2,true)
for stereo (1 for mono, etc)
Thanks!
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v5.974+dev0409 - April 9 2019
+ Automation items: remove preference to attach automation items to the underlying envelope (superseded by per-automation-item transition time setting)
Hm. Not sure if I'm a fan of this. These feel like two different things altogether. Visual feedback of attaching the AI to the underlying envelope I find very important to have. Please don't remove this.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-10-2019 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 04-10-2019, 04:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
+ API: add support for GetSetProjectInfo_String(RENDER_FORMAT)

Great! Thank you so much!!!
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:05 AM   #11
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if anyone has a licecap of the new AI settings in play, i'd like to see it. i don't use underlying envelopes, nor plan on ever using them (making up for the years and years i spent creating project-long envelopes just for ~4 seconds of volume automation), but i'm hoping that this means "AI crossfade" is on the way.

i never want stacked AI on the same envelope. it's a cool function, but i draw the envelope i want 90% of the time and the ability to create stacked AI just forces me to spend more time on cleanup
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:07 AM   #12
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Hm. Not sure if I'm a fan of this. These feel like two different things altogether. Visual feedback of attaching the AI to the underlying envelope I find very important to have. Please don't remove this.
Hm, right now, I can't really conceive what this does.
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:08 AM   #13
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There's just a per-AI setting for transition time. That's it. You can still stack AIs on top of each other.

I want connecting to underlying envelope modes back...
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:11 AM   #14
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I second what mccrabbney wrote: a licecap would be great. I'm not using much automation right now, but getting rid of prefs is always a major step.
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:16 AM   #15
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There's nothing to LICEcap. We lost settings to connect AIs to underlying envelope from the right, or both sides. Which is a huge bummer IMHO, breaks my workflow. AI transition time (that needs to be adjusted for each individual AI) is not a replacement.
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:36 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
woop. crash when mousing around the corners of this AI:

BTW, that project you sent had extension data from the "SOWER_v2.0" plug-in, which is writing its state incorrectly. I'd suggest removing that plug-in unless you use it a lot. It could prevent other plug-ins from saving their state correctly.
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:40 AM   #17
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There's nothing to LICEcap. We lost settings to connect AIs to underlying envelope from the right, or both sides. Which is a huge bummer IMHO, breaks my workflow. AI transition time (that needs to be adjusted for each individual AI) is not a replacement.
The automatic edge connection is a lot of code and complexity. Would you mind explaining your use cases for it?
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:44 AM   #18
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AI transition time (that needs to be adjusted for each individual AI) is not a replacement.
Maybe it could be a good idea to add an action to set AI transition time for all existing AI of the project ?

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Old 04-10-2019, 06:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
+ Automation items: remove preference to attach automation items to the underlying envelope (superseded by per-automation-item transition time setting)
Semi-related, but since this is overhauled currently, maybe a related API bug could be looked at.

(Seeing being discussed if this preference should stay or not. Maybe if it's removed, above API bug is also solved, not sure.)
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:20 AM   #20
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The automatic edge connection is a lot of code and complexity. Would you mind explaining your use cases for it?
I like seeing how things connect rather than going to individual AI's properties to see what the transition time is. Edge connection shows me things as they are without requiring me to open a window to check the setting. It's better UX for the end user.

Of course, the connecting modes are less useful when you have stacked AIs. But truthfully, I don't use stacked AIs at all (maybe this is something that should be an option, or removed instead Not really, but it would make more sense to have AI takes than stacking AIs...)

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Maybe it could be a good idea to add an action to set AI transition time for all existing AI of the project ?
Not really, because with connecting modes it all depends where the last envelope point was in relation to the start (or end) of automation item, resulting in a different transition time...

It's not the same.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-10-2019 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:26 AM   #21
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I like seeing how things connect rather than going to individual AI's properties to see what the transition time is. Edge connection shows me things as they are without requiring me to open a window to check the setting. It's better UX for the end user.
What would be really helpful is a description of the use case for using automation items with the underlying envelope enabled, and and the underlying envelope edges sticking to the start/end values of the automation items after edits. Like, here is why I set up the envelope this way, and here is why I want the envelope to attach.
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:29 AM   #22
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That's simple, say you have a base envelope that you either recorded or hand-drawn, and you just want to take a segment out of it and copy/pool it elsewhere in the project. You don't want to touch the rest of the envelope nor do you want to convert it wholly to an AI, but you want it to be a continuous change from the base env to AI.

This is how I basically use AIs. Not as the only thing there is (like mccrabney does), but as an adjunct and occasional pooling of parts of the regular envelopes.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-10-2019 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
v5.974+dev0409 - April 9 2019
+ API: add support for GetSetProjectInfo_String(RENDER_FORMAT)
Full changelog / Latest pre-releases

YEEEESSS!!! THANK YOU
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That's simple, say you have a base envelope that you either recorded or hand-drawn, and you just want to take a segment out of it and copy/pool it elsewhere in the project. You don't want to touch the rest of the envelope nor do you want to convert it wholly to an AI.

This is how I basically use AIs. Not as the only thing there is(like mccrabney does), but as an adjunct to the regular envelopes.
So what's a situation where the edge point attachment is preferable to transition time? The aspect of edge point attachment that makes it less useful from my perspective is the big jumps it often causes, affecting the envelope far away from the automation item itself:


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Old 04-10-2019, 07:40 AM   #25
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This is something I would expect since AI is in front of the envelope, to me there is nothing wrong in the example you showed... AI takes precedence over the underlying envelope and there's no fixed transition time but it depends on the other envelope points. Strangely enough (maybe?) it makes perfect sense to me Actually it's not strange - because I see what's happening to the underlying envelope, it all makes sense. It's kinda like the trim behind items mode with regular audio items.

With transition time stuck in preferences I don't see what's happening to the envelope. This should be WYSIWYG.
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:03 AM   #26
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Where can I find info on how to use GetSetProjectInfo_String in my scripts? I'd like to test out a script for changing channel output from mono to stereo
Just wait for it. Next month, I'll release an update to my Ultraschall-API that will have functions for creating and analysing such strings, so you don't have to do that yourself.

To some extend, you can already do that with the current version of my Ultraschall-API, as they have many functions for creating render-cfg-strings already.

Here's the docs for that:
https://mespotin.uber.space/Ultrasch..._Renderstrings

In short: you can already create these strings fullfeatured for mp3, wav, wavpack, aiff, ddp, flac, with the other ones partially.
Gif, lcf and mp4 still missing, but will come next month.


These strings are cross-platform compatible, so you can safely use them on all platforms, but need to keep in mind, that not all platforms support all formats in general.
Mp4 is mac only, Linux is missing some (like ddp afaik).
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Old 04-10-2019, 08:05 AM   #27
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Not trying to be combative, just genuinely trying to understand: what is the use case where this is the desired behavior? When would you want this volume cut to become a fade-in just because you moved the automation item a little bit?

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Old 04-10-2019, 08:18 AM   #28
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If I'm moving AI somewhere, I'm aware of possible implications on the underlying envelope, so I would move it where such things wouldn't happen, or if they really need to go to a such location that it does what you show (which I guess would be rare, but you never know...), I'd fix it afterwards if I found it was necessary.

But I'm aware at all times that AI takes precedence and underlying envelope is following AI's edges. And that Reaper shows me (used to show me) this is (was ) really appreciated.


Now I know I could be considered a power user and that the above behavior might be considered weird by an ordinary user... but still I think it's really nice that it's a WYSIWYG thing. Which is good UX on the whole!
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:26 PM   #29
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Not trying to be combative, just genuinely trying to understand: what is the use case where this is the desired behavior? When would you want this volume cut to become a fade-in just because you moved the automation item a little bit?

There's a few scenarios where I find this useful:

1. I prefer this when doing any sort of VCA/Group/Master automation because it prevents me from making some serious mistakes. The proposed default behaviour would allow a user to accidentally put an AI with automation that could blast their ears. The ramp behaviour gives you some warning.

I know that sounds silly, but it's saved me a few times.

2a. I often use AI's as a patch. I want a small bit of automation, that I can move around, to adjust a section of automation. The ramp behaviour allows me to move this around as I need without any issue.

As far as I can remember, I never want any other behaviour because of this. A key command or setting for this would be tedious at best.

2b. I almost always create AI's by drawing over an existing envelope and then sometimes need to move them. Being able to forget to change a setting on the AI and wonder why I have little blips in my mix would drive me crazy.

3a. Before we had this option, if you created an AI over an existing, it would consume the points and the underlying envelope would be corrupted. This needs to not happen (I haven't tested the release)

3b. Adding edge points to the underlying envelope to fix the drawing issue was problematic as it screwed up existing curves. This also needs to not happen.

...

I was going to write more, but it turns out that the tldr; is:
  • If you use AIs to make adjustments to existing envelopes then you always want this option on.
  • If you use AIs to create new data, then it makes sense for it to be off.

If it's possible that it can be an action/per-item setting, why can't there be a preference that basically runs the action on newly created AI's?
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:11 PM   #30
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re AI's

i find it troublesome that an auto item is tied to an audio item for movement etc. but if i delete the item the AI remains.

recently got into trouble after i accidentally mass copied a load of audio items (this occurs q easily when drawing item take volume envelopes, miss the target zone and you can copy the item), which created *duplicate AI's out of sync & layered with the originals*

i deleted the new accidental audio items (they were already selected) easily and thought all was well -

but didn't realise i had all this 'doubled out of time automation' on the automation lane until some time and edits later, ( it didn't get deleted.)
the result was bad visually and audibly and hard to fix ( i need to compare latest .rpp with bak ups to find point when AI's were ok then copy that automation to most recent proj version..)

i had presumed they acted like a group when 'move AIs with audio item' is enabled.

TLDR
an option to also remove an audio item's AI when removing an audio item would be the best option imo.

little example of the above that is very mild compared to the real mess i made
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Old 04-11-2019, 04:20 AM   #31
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i find it troublesome that an auto item is tied to an audio item for movement etc. but if i delete the item the AI remains.
Hmm, this is a bit tricky. I can see the argument for either behavior.
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:04 AM   #32
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Hmm, this is a bit tricky. I can see the argument for either behavior.
Cheers for response.


Also as you move items they 'collect up' other AI's and you can quickly create a multi layered mass of many AI's , that if you fail to use Undo at the time it occurs, gives user a problem to unpick/fix.

Edit: found the pref option to not have AI's overlap, but i generally like overlapping..
perhaps there should be an overlap limit for neatness/clarity?

Few users want a stack of 8 AIs squished onto a lane, shirley?

Edit2: a separate undo path for envelope lanes (or maybe tracks) could work.

So one can revert an envelope only to a previous state, leaving rest of project intact.

Just an idea as undo history didn't help in resolving issue.
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