Something Like LIVE's Session View

[plamuk]

i also hope to see this feature.

[foxAsteria]

From my use of this feature in Ableton all we'd really need would be the ability to quickly assign a MIDI or keyboard trigger to items with and to organize them in a window, based on track and/or originating items (if we modify them into new clips).

So technically the project bay could be modified to do this, which is partly something I asked for but few seemed interested in. http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ject+bay+track (I actually asked for this because I too missed it from working in Jeskola Buzz tracker, like the OP, more than ableton)

Of course they should have the per-item loop/one-shot/play x-times/randomize and all those types of features as in ableton. what else is there to it? we can record live disk output for the triggered patterns to save our performances. Plus the contents of the media bay can be easily saved and opened in a new project, no? could do multiple versions this way even easier than in Live.

Would this not pretty much cover it?

[plamuk]

Originally Posted by PooFox

From my use of this feature in Ableton all we'd really need would be the ability to quickly assign a MIDI or keyboard trigger to items with and to organize them in a window, based on track and/or originating items (if we modify them into new clips).

So technically the project bay could be modified to do this, which is partly something I asked for but few seemed interested in....

Of course they should have the per-item loop/one-shot/play x-times/randomize and all those types of features as in ableton. what else is there to it? we can record live disk output for the triggered patterns to save our performances. Plus the contents of the media bay can be easily saved and opened in a new project, no? could do multiple versions this way even easier than in Live.

Would this not pretty much cover it?

almost. we also need to be able to direct MIDI items in the bay to specific midi outputs/tracks.

this, + quantized input as bbb mentioned would totally do it for me.

this doesn't address live's ability to record into these clips, but personally i'm only looking for playback for now.

[Susceptor]

I posted about this FR's priority; here's a quote:

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Only moderators can change priority. I don't think this is really a level 2 priority personally.

While I realise that for some this isn't really an important FR (heck, some might never use it and thus never care if it gets implemented), it IS a useful feature that gets implemented in more programs and REAPER will benefit from it as a whole – which is more important for the whole community.

The benefit would be to allow people to couple REAPER's great mixer and routing capabilities with a non-linear production workflow AND the option to use it in a live situation easily. Just as a reminder, here's list of all the software that have this option: Ableton, Sonar, Maschine, FL, Bitwig, Traktor.

So, is there any way to make this FR more obvious to the devs? Or speak with the mods to increase the priority?!

It's just a simple matrix (with MIDI trigger options) that can play audio and MIDI clips independently of the timeline (synced to tempo or not).

[Susceptor]

Any opinions? Anyone else still hoping for this? Should I just switch to Live?

[fwd0120]

Originally Posted by Susceptor

Any opinions? Anyone else still hoping for this? Should I just switch to Live?

I would LOVE to have this in reaper!!! I do like a lot of elements from Live, but it just doesn't have as much functionality as reaper. I just miss a lot of things every time I use it.

Better time stretching gadgets and session view would make reaper pretty amazing. I also wish there was a wrapper to use live devices as VSTs, but that's another post...

[plamuk]

yes this is absolutely my #1 feature... i hope i don't have to wait long, as my live set kind of depends on this. anything i do in the meantime is bandaid...

[Susceptor]

So, how can we make this happen?

There's literally no work in this direction, and I'm not even sure the devs are aware of this request; if they are however, can we at least get a hint if this will or will not happen? Instead of endlessly hoping maybe we could find out – at least for me it would be really useful to know this.

[medicine tactic]

Yup. Not only that, but (and this is pure speculation on my part, and could be *completely* wrong, so take it with a grain of salt) Reaper's current MIDI playback philosophy seems fundamentally incompatible with nonlinear session view-type playback for reasons I touch on in these two comments.

Basically, IMO, the devs would need to change Reaper's MIDI playback philosophy considerably before even thinking about taking on session view. Beyond just scheduling items to play back sequentially in real time, notes would need to be able to ring out past item bounds, or there would be obvious, unnaturally clipped transitions.

Maybe this is easy to fix. I have no idea. But my hunch is that it's buried pretty deep.

[Susceptor]

MIDI playback aside, this is a feature that's getting implemented in most music programs and IMHO it's becoming the norm (i.e. both linear playback and non-linear pattern triggering).

REAPER does have the best mixer and the best plugin engine, it's MIDI editor is decent with the new improvements, but otherwise it's starting to lag.

(as a sidenote, I think bitwig will be my ideal DAW, but it's not launched yet, so I still have to wait before I decide anything)

[plamuk]

i'd be totally happy if this were implemented as an extension, wholly separate from the main sequencer/arrangement view.

[medicine tactic]

Originally Posted by run, megalodon

Actually Live doesn't let notes ring out past item ends, so that's not really an issue if I'm understanding you. You either write something that ends at the item end, or turn up the release on your instrument. There may be other ways of dealing with it. But that's what I do.

Heh, shows what I know For some reason I have a distinct memory of verifying this on a demo install, but I'm sure you're right.

Edit: Ok, here's what I was thinking of. The concept in that video applies just as well to items arranged on the timeline or triggered via session view. Basically, a note will ring out past the item/loop end as long as a note of the same pitch is already ringing before the beginning of the next item/loop iteration.

Edit2: This is actually extremely clever of them. It allows Live the ability to have smooth, musical transitions without having to schedule note-offs far in advance (which I can see now could leave unwanted notes ringing during live arrangement).

[medicine tactic]

Sure, np.

Now that it's come up, I actually think the devs should seriously consider Live's technique for Reaper. Reaper hasn't really committed to a side yet. It still unceremoniously cuts all notes off at item/loop bounds. And every other DAW that I'm aware of schedules note-offs to occur at the note's duration in the future.

Doing it like this would pave the way for a session view. And would also neatly resolve issues with notes looping around back onto themselves, as the video illustrates.

Edit: Er, not meaning to derail the thread, though. Hopefully this is related-enough to earn a pass Back to chat about session view.

[pc999]

+99999999999999999

Cant belive I handt post here before


(when we get the 4.33 pre releases features back)
This feature, linux and a easy way to increase, midi itens in ME, and it would be almost all that I really need and want in a host.

[Garrick]

Thanks nym for pointing this thread out.

Ableton session view is great but you can't tempo map midi after recording sans click.
I think reaper could do a session view better than ableton

[Garrick]

So a matrix of cells, on the vertical axis are the list of regions, horizontal axis the tracks. Make a region in the arrange, drag and drop to the matrix.

And/or
Make a new region in matrix, record directly into cells, drag and drop region into arrange.

I wonder if this could be done with a sws extension?
Someone buy breeder a beer or 10.

[sinkmusic]

I wonder if we could make some kind of a "dummy" JS plugin, with such a line/row matrix, and clicking on one of the pad would trigger the region.
Can we already trig (/jump to) à region using a Midi CC (i never tried) ?
(Ext2 features such a "live jam" mode)

[Garrick]

True. There is also sws region playlist but I have never tried it

[plamuk]

Can we already trig (/jump to) à region using a Midi CC (i never tried) ?

yes, but not to divisions of measures, as per this quote from jeffos:

can't do better ATM :/ in theory, I could sync to any multiple/percent of measures but this does not work (dunno if it's a bug or me expecting too much).
On a sidenote, if it was working, this would be the ticket for some type of arranger/sequencer plugin extensions!

[Garrick]

how about if you tempo mapped the region, split the audio contents, delete the tempo markers?

Or place stretch markers on the one in all the audio items.
Or group the audio contents, place stretch markers on one of the audio items?

I don't know, just throwing it out there

[Garrick]

Any way. Voted

...or a ghost item with media cues.
Or a flamingo holding an axe with a sign saying"I did it"

[pewpewpew]

I wouldn't use this FR but, as for the dozenth time someone mentioned Reaper's lack of it as a stumbling block while learning Reaper (this time someone I work closely with), I'm going to upvote this. It would bring an awful lot of users; it's just plain good for Reaper.

[Susceptor]

Furhtermore, since REAPER is extremely stable, it just doesn't make sense not having this feature. Basically it improves REAPER on the producing/creativity part and also allows one to use it in a pure live situation.

[brisket]

Using Reaper live, the closest I've come to this kind of setup is to have lots of short regions recorded, with different combinations of clips playing across the tracks in each region. (Those that I won't be tweaking in realtime I freeze to save CPU and hopefully avoid crashing.)

Then to skip between them I have 'smooth seek' turned on and set to region in Preferences, ie if I've highlighted region 3 while region 1 plays, 3 will start but not until the moment region 1 has played out. This is my crude substitute for quantising.

I've made a few custom actions and mapped them to a controller, basically allowing me to skip ahead or back to any region, select and highlight it so it will be the next to play at the end of the current region.

with this workflow I can play loop-based music live with reasonable flexibility, especially since i'm more focused on manipulating the synth parameters live (and singing!) Obviously it's not close to what you can do live with Ableton, but Reaper makes up for it in other ways.

[joesacco]

I like this feature request.
Basically a session view is just a vertical type view instead of the usual horizontal view. This brings about different ideas when creating. Being able to drag and drop loops and sections and mix and match until you find something cool is a different process altogether than creating the way you usually do... Section by section... Left to right.
The feature is great because it puts a unique spin on DAW creating music in general and only few have even ventured there.

One thing I found confusing and a bit clumsy in Ableton is when it came to bringing a session clip composition into the arrange view... things always got messy . This could be improved upon in Reaper if and when it does happen. A simple drag and drop section back to the arrange seems to make the most sense.
The auto quantize function would have to mastered before implementing though as someone had already mentioned... In Ableton it's pretty seamless , as is time stretching.

Sorry just stirring the pot here hoping to see some progress in this direction.

[dazastah]

Why do we even need to have a clip session viewer.

If each item has a midi note assigned to it and each item has a way of changing the way it plays back via action(loop one shot note hold) and then a plug in on a seprate track called(item clip trigger) connects the midi to item assignment... OR item play back is a action? like item id plack back?

Your arrangement is then a midi track referencing clips and or regions...
The region arrangement/triggering already exists, as i use it , but live clip triggering doesn't/can't assign clip item to a midi note or triggerable control action.

Most of the interest seems to be a live why of arranging clips ...
Rather than having a different way of visualising how to arrange... Am i wrong ? item clips are blocks of midi and audio already arn't they?

To me the gui going from left to right vs top to bottom is no different really.. But i guess for some The vertical block arranging is easier and equally as important.

I rekon a simple assign item to midi note mite do the trick with a track plugin that connects it??

[perrolunar]

I think is really great idea principally because the Rewire between Reaper and Live sucks always crash.

[xbitz]

check the Scene part of the Bitwig screen

http://ohdratdigital.com/wp-content/...screenshot.png

personally I no need new horizontal structure, u should simply add an other vertical media items (from Project Bay / Media items) collection representational layer (call it to Scene one, hello Bitwig ) to the already exists Regions(actually it would be much more advanced than the Bitwig one because of the middle Region layer in it:Project>Regions>Scenes>Media Items), in this case a Region will be a container and u will able to drop different Scenes into it (ofc. just only one Scene can be active at the same time -if u activate on of them > the visible clips are replaced in the track view with those ones which are inside of the given Scene - inside a Region, mainly this is a switchable projects inside the regions of a project (just with same tracks, as on the picture) feature using this u can keep the consistency with the old projects easily ), so if each Regions will able to contain one or more Scenes(and each Scenes will able to contain one or more Media Items /vertically as u see on the picture/), with : 1/project/:N/region/:N/scene/:N/media item/ connection than I will be a happy man


+1 to this feature

[Vendetta V]

gonna bump this myself. I find this highly usable!! please do it

[joesacco]

Even something as simple as being able to arrange bars more easily would be a small step in the right direction.
Could be as graphically basic as the routing window... Just little boxes that represent a bar. First row would be your current structure and the row below it could be where you want to move it. That simple!

[memyselfandus]

to elaborate

How about some form of Session type view where we can double click on "cells" and it opens a midi editor for each one but is Separate from the main project view. so you can have lets say ezdrummer on one group of cells and compose and play back each Cell without the main project playing back.and add your drum part variations in each cell and drag each one wherever you want. into the main project.

here is one example showing how it could be used

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlYdxc1LnDI

The first pic here shows how it would look if we had a whole separate page for doing this. it show rows of clips. each rectangle or "clip" can be double clicked and edited via a piano roll and linked to a vst.



the second pic here shows how it would look with just a simple column on the right side of the project view. you could compose parts over here and drag the performances as midi files onto any track.

[lxm]

Originally Posted by run, megalodon

A 60 dollar program, with all of Reaper's features, plus this ability to compose in "real time" with loops, would just be so utterly stupendous and superfantastic and great.

What he said. Fantastic creative tool...

[foxAsteria]

We still don't need a separate view!

Recording always happens in linear time, even in Ableton. Session view is just a bloated tool for managing linear clips (Media Items) in a non-linear way.

We already have two such tools; one in the MIDI editor and one in the Project Bay. Either of these lists could be adapted to allow for triggering items in realtime and cover most of Session View's functionality.

What else we DON'T need:

1. To copy ableton!

2. A separate view. A screen full of item "cells," is an unecessary waste of space. They are already easy to edit (Double clicking items in the Arrangement opens them in the Editor and clicking on them once in the Track List of the MIDI Editor also makes them editable).

3. Another "matrix" or "manager" window. We can smooth seek to 40 different regions directly with actions or by selecting regions in the SWS Marker list during playback. We can even use "save live output to disk" to record the performance.

What we DO need:

1. Real-time Item and Region Triggers. It should work like a behind-the-scenes sampler: select the item in the arrangement or list and "learn" the keyboard or controller trigger and assign "follow-with" actions (infinite loop, loop x times, play another item, randomize, route to another track etc).

2. Global Quantize. Smooth seeking as well as anything Transport related should be optionally quantized to the grid, instead of only measures or some limited set of actions.

3. Integration. Provide way to drag items into the arrange from the List (like explorer and Project Bay). Make the list dockable in a window by itself and automatically filter the list (not highlight) based on Track Selection. Also optionally filter the list for items with trigger assignments.

The Item List needs a column to change the playback track for items (thx, nym). This way, retained items that have been removed from the arrrangement can be easily played back through any track's fx chain and MIDI items can send notes to any VSTi.

The Region Manager should also be better integrated to allow for direct reordering, dragging into the arrangement and assigning triggers.

Then with just a few fundamental modifications we'd have a clean, efficient sidecar for both linear and non-linear managing of Media Items without sacrificing much screen space.

Anything left?

can't believe this thread is over 7 years old. so is the the dev quote that they can't find the usefulness in this stuff...surely a lot's changed in that time...

[jimmey]

Originally Posted by PooFox

What we DO need:

1. Real-time Item and Region Triggers. It should work like a behind-the-scenes sampler: select the item in the arrangement or list and "learn" the keyboard or controller trigger and assign "follow-with" actions (infinite loop, loop x times, play another item, randomize, route to another track etc).

2. Global Quantize. Smooth seeking as well as anything Transport related should be optionally quantized to the grid, instead of only measures or some limited set of actions.

3. Integration. Provide way to drag items into the arrange from the List (like explorer and Project Bay). Make the list dockable in a window by itself and automatically filter the list (not highlight) based on Track Selection. Also optionally filter the list for items with trigger assignments.

The Item List needs a column to change the playback track for items (thx, nym). This way, retained items that have been removed from the arrrangement can be easily played back through any track's fx chain and MIDI items can send notes to any VSTi.

The Region Manager should also be better integrated to allow for direct reordering, dragging into the arrangement and assigning triggers.

Then with just a few fundamental modifications we'd have a clean, efficient sidecar for both linear and non-linear managing of Media Items without sacrificing much screen space.

THIS!

Don't care for a copy of Ableton as well. As it has it's own flaws.

Originally Posted by PooFox

can't believe this thread is over 7 years old. so is the the dev quote that they can't find the usefulness in this stuff...surely a lot's changed in that time...

Plenty of time to realise that it's anything but useless.

[memyselfandus]

something like this. you could redirect cells to a selected vst and drag the midi over. this is a start. pic here shows how it would look with just a simple column on the right side of the project view. you could compose parts over here and drag the performances as midi files onto any track.

[todd_r]

While Mr Poofox's improvements would definitely be welcome, it wouldn't really capture whats great about the whole grid matrix thing.

It gives you immediate access to both every item individually, and prearranged scenes/regions. The grid paradigm is pretty much the way I can think this would be possible (without change for the sake of it, like making it a circle or something).

While the most obvious use is for live performance, the most valuable use for it is the sketching out/composition of a strong structure.

This might not be obvious for people from a more traditional recording/band type background, but for electronic it is perfect, and the most natural and performance orientated way way to put a song together (far better than trying to draw in/copy paste loops which I find tedious and unmusical)

Anyway, I really hope this makes it into v5, some kind of feedback from one of the devs on the matter would be good

[jimmey]

Originally Posted by todd_r

While the most obvious use is for live performance, the most valuable use for it is the sketching out/composition of a strong structure.

This might not be obvious for people from a more traditional recording/band type background, but for electronic it is perfect, and the most natural and performance orientated way way to put a song together (far better than trying to draw in/copy paste loops which I find tedious and unmusical)

Anyway, I really hope this makes it into v5, some kind of feedback from one of the devs on the matter would be good

I disagree? (Not sure if you meant it that way). But most music is build in blocks, patterns. Pop, rock, metal, blues, classic etc. So its not only electronic music that'll benefit from that. Electronic musicians only happen to be using it more often.

I hope that as well!

[Evan]

I think a separate view is important for two reasons: for live performance where you want to see all vital info on a single screen, and better/easier controller integration (e.g. direct mapping of pads to on-screen cells).

Reaper doesn't need to copy Ableton, there are other tools with similar functionality (e.g. Cakewalk's -abandoned- Project5 was highly praised). Lots of places to draw inspirations from. I would even suggest to check out music practice tools which work with live looping and playback.

[lxm]

Originally Posted by PooFox

We still don't need a separate view!

Recording always happens in linear time, even in Ableton. Session view is just a bloated tool for managing linear clips (Media Items) in a non-linear way.

We already have two such tools; one in the MIDI editor and one in the Project Bay. Either of these lists could be adapted to allow for triggering items in realtime and cover most of Session View's functionality.

What else we DON'T need:

1. To copy ableton!

2. A separate view. A screen full of item "cells," is an unecessary waste of space. They are already easy to edit (Double clicking items in the Arrangement opens them in the Editor and clicking on them once in the Track List of the MIDI Editor also makes them editable).

3. Another "matrix" or "manager" window. We can smooth seek to 40 different regions directly with actions or by selecting regions in the SWS Marker list during playback. We can even use "save live output to disk" to record the performance.

What we DO need:

1. Real-time Item and Region Triggers. It should work like a behind-the-scenes sampler: select the item in the arrangement or list and "learn" the keyboard or controller trigger and assign "follow-with" actions (infinite loop, loop x times, play another item, randomize, route to another track etc).

2. Global Quantize. Smooth seeking as well as anything Transport related should be optionally quantized to the grid, instead of only measures or some limited set of actions.

3. Integration. Provide way to drag items into the arrange from the List (like explorer and Project Bay). Make the list dockable in a window by itself and automatically filter the list (not highlight) based on Track Selection. Also optionally filter the list for items with trigger assignments.

The Item List needs a column to change the playback track for items (thx, nym). This way, retained items that have been removed from the arrrangement can be easily played back through any track's fx chain and MIDI items can send notes to any VSTi.

The Region Manager should also be better integrated to allow for direct reordering, dragging into the arrangement and assigning triggers.

Then with just a few fundamental modifications we'd have a clean, efficient sidecar for both linear and non-linear managing of Media Items without sacrificing much screen space.

Anything left?

can't believe this thread is over 7 years old. so is the the dev quote that they can't find the usefulness in this stuff...surely a lot's changed in that time...

I respectfully disagree. EVERY DAW borrows from other DAWS. I dont see how a creative tool is a bad thing!? We are here to make music after-all yes?

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by memyselfandus

something like this.

Again? Not to be rude, but for as much as you're spamming that image, why not drag in a pic of the MIDI Editor's Track List instead of something straight out of ableton? Then at least it will look kind of like it actually would.

@todd_r - point taken. The obvious way to see enough items onscreen would be to do that matrix type window like others have suggested, and for it to be truly useful on stage it would need to clearly highlight the active cells a la that big, light-up pad controller they made for live.

A matrix-type solution should show most of its information with colors and icons, rather than text and ideally the grid size should be scalable, unlike our other matrices.

This could still be docked and not always take up the whole screen (which would limit integration/drag and drop etc).

In Windows you can view the contents of a folder as a text list or an icon grid. Similarly, I think the List View ought to be switchable to a grid of colored squares in the same window. The icons should ould change color as stateful indicators and display other useful information for live reference with minimum clutter.

That way we could use the same list as a normal clip list (ME Track List or memyselfandus' pic) docked to the side, or blow it up to screen size and view a grid of all clips for all tracks at once (kind of like the Track Manager or the Grouping Matrix). I might mock that up maybe unless someone beats me to it.

Although...the more I think about it, it does start to sound better to just have both: a more integrated list like the ME Track list (with drag and drop, config columns etc) AND a colored grid matrix where you can trigger individual clips, groups of clips, or regions directly. Might be easier, coding-wise than a "transformer" window...