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Old 05-12-2014, 09:11 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
The file attached to this thread as a repro. It shows clipped in reaper when playing back....
It doesn't show clipping for me in Reaper:

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Originally Posted by AmmoniumNitrate View Post
... When I import it into Reaper, the meter peaks at "-0.2"....
While I was importing it, Reaper asked me if I wanted to import it at the "source tempo", and I answered Ok to that. Did you import it at the source tempo?

It didn't show clipping for Tod:

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
My Reaper meter on the test tone shows -0.2 until the end where it goes to -0.1db.
It didn't show clipping for Lawrence when he retested after his festivities:

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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
... peaks at ... -0.17
It didn't show clipping for Mordi:

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Originally Posted by Mordi View Post
I can redo the test with a specified lossless file (see attachment).... Imported into reaper, it peaks at -0.2 dB....
It didn't show clipping for xpander:

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Originally Posted by xpander View Post
... Test tone file (post #14).... no matter how I try to play it back, it won't clip.
Peak meter shows steady -0.2 dB all the time. SWS Analyze and display item peak/RMS gives peak levels of -0.15 dB and RMS levels of -5.68 dB. SWS/BR Analyze Loudness gives integrated LUFS -3.5, max short-term and momentary LUFS -3.5.

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Old 05-12-2014, 09:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
The file attached to this thread as a repro. It shows clipped in reaper when playing back but if you turn off snap, zoom in and place the cursor at different positions and start play back from those, the clip amount changes based on start position. If you move the cursor to a zero crossing it will not show clipped at all.

Part of what I think the confusion in the overall thread is that the peak meters (in my config) remain illuminated on the very first peak encountered until you reset it by clicking the meter... so the file isn't constantly peaking, it's just holding the very first miscalculated over that was encountered and I think that is a miscalculation or similar based on these finer details and the fact that viewing the file data in any static viewer says there are zero clipped samples.

I think the ask here is to find out more and/or address it since it will freak people out and make them post asking what's wrong with Reaper's metering.
Aah, okay, your right. I hadn't tried starting with the cursor on the item. I'm getting a +0.8 most of the time. Now that is very very strange, I've never encountered anything like that before.

It has something to do with that file, it's basically 3 octaves of what appears to be a C.

I've tried to duplicate it with a stereo file using 3 octaves of a C sine wav starting with a C2 at about 130hrz, and I can't get it to do what that file does.

Heh heh, pretty strange.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:46 AM   #43
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While I was importing it, Reaper asked me if I wanted to import it at the "source tempo", and I answered Ok to that. Did you import it at the source tempo?
I think I tried both but not near Reaper right now to confirm.

Quote:
It didn't show clipping for Tod:
It does now.

However, I'm TLDR guilty as charged and didn't see so many not reproing this but as Tod shows, it's possible to repro.

Lastly, I'm a few revs back (need to check) at least a couple months back so might check the change list on landoleet just to make sure this wasn't partially addressed and no one is aware.

Might try my steps to get it to repro since start position appears to be entirely related. Let's be aware of peak hold as well so we know what we are seeing is a single "peak" or multiple, I think it is still single and an incorrect assumption on the code's behalf or the file. Will check the tempo option on import tonight and see if anything changes.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:49 AM   #44
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It has something to do with that file, it's basically 3 octaves of what appears to be a C.
Neat huh? If you look closely at that waveform (and listen to it) I think it is plausible that this particular waveform being played this close to zero may expose the display issue/calculation/anomaly/bad file whatever it turns out to be.

Has anyone looked at the freq response of this file yet out of curiosity.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:53 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Might try my steps to get it to repro since start position appears to be entirely related.
What start position did you use to get it to clip?

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Aah, okay, your right. I hadn't tried starting with the cursor on the item. I'm getting a +0.8 most of the time.
Did you start it anywhere particular on the item? Did you import the WAV at the source tempo?
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:01 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Might try my steps to get it to repro since start position appears to be entirely related. Let's be aware of peak hold as well so we know what we are seeing is a single "peak" or multiple, I think it is still single and an incorrect assumption on the code's behalf or the file.
When I tested it, I tried starting playback from anywhere and everywhere inside and outside the item but that didn't make any difference here. Sticky clip indicator was useless since the item didn't clip to begin with but I tried with it also. Also with Reset meter peak indicators on play/seek while jumping and stopping everywhere on the item and with different Meter update frequences too. Couldn't repro here.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:02 AM   #47
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What start position did you use to get it to clip?
"Almost" anywhere except a zero crossing and when doing so and if it reproed, the amount of clip changed depending.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:03 AM   #48
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When I tested it, I tried starting playback from anywhere and everywhere inside and outside the item but that didn't make any difference here.... Couldn't repro here.
Same, except I didn't really try it everywhere because that would be a lot of places.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:04 AM   #49
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When I tested it, I tried starting playback from anywhere and everywhere inside and outside the item but that didn't make any difference here. Sticky clip indicator was useless since the item didn't clip to begin with but I tried with it also. Also with Reset meter peak indicators on play/seek while jumping and stopping everywhere on the item and with different Meter update frequences too. Couldn't repro here.
Did you zoom in so that you could see the waveform,? If zoomed out or snap is on, I don't think it will ever or always will land in the right spop. It does seem to vary some between us so I don't really know.

I'll post my rev. tonight when I can check or earlier if I get a chance to remote into the studio.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:04 AM   #50
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"Almost" anywhere except a zero crossing and when doing so and if it reproed, the amount of clip changed depending.
That's messed up. Even if you resampled it, that's still messed up.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:05 AM   #51
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Neat huh? If you look closely at that waveform (and listen to it) I think it is plausible that this particular waveform being played this close to zero may expose the display issue/calculation/anomaly/bad file whatever it turns out to be.

Has anyone looked at the freq response of this file yet out of curiosity.
Yes, like I mentioned above, it's basically 3 octaves of C starting around 130hrz. So it's 130, 260, and 520-hrz give or take a few hrz.

I just did all this testing with the latest Reaper pre, 4.62rc3 I think it is.

Heh heh, I'd like to see this resolved, like you said karbo, something like this could cause considerable confusion, and who knows what kind of files it could show up in down the road.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:07 AM   #52
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karbo and Tod if your reinstall Windows and Reaper and leave everything at the defaults do you get the clipping?
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:07 AM   #53
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Same, except I didn't really try it everywhere because that would be a lot of places.
Again, looking at the waveform zoomed in there is a very narrow area (number of places) because it is a tone so the waveform repeats. Meaning the entire area of interest is between the first zero crossing and the next one (actually the second for a full waveform). You have to zoom in so you can see the actual calculated waveform and choose where to place the cursor, zero crossing, half way up the first hump etc., etc,. Once placed in varying places on that waveform, press play and see if it does it for you.

Once you see it, you'll know why tod said it is octaves because the waveform looks like the result of similarly combined sine waves. Hearing it is what made me want to zoom in to begin with because it sounded complex/synthesized aka wasn't a pure sine wave and I wanted to have a look to see why it sound that way.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:09 AM   #54
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Haha, well, like AmmoniumNitrate pointed out, I didn't try every single sample position within the file...but I did zoom into sample level and tried from the peaks on both sides, zero crossings and rising/falling edges, snap on and off. Nope. There must be something not tested yet, but surely nothing I would normally do seem to make it happen.

edit: ok, finally got something but can't make it steady. Zooming out step by step, I managed to first reach a stage where the peaks were getting lower (down to -0.5) then up to +0.5. Just one-offs, resetting the meters and then using the same zoom level and starting point will produce -0.2 again.

edit3: nevermind, I had already changed samplerates earlier while trying...something karbo points out in post #67.

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Old 05-12-2014, 10:14 AM   #55
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karbo and Tod if your reinstall Windows and Reaper and leave everything at the defaults do you get the clipping?
Well I won't be reinstalling Windows per se but I can install multiple portable versions of Reaper on different same, different machines and maybe a VM or two but not sure I have the time.

Portable installs of Reaper are my mainstay though. You can bypass some of that by choosing the dummy driver if you are thinking it is in anyway audio driver related or in the audio driver/stack/path.

FYI: I have tested on my main DAW (Win 8) Fireface UFX and my laptop (Win7) and some cheap M-Audio SC I bought just for that room and testing stomp boxes when building them.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:15 AM   #56
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Okay, if you import media at source tempo it doesn't clip, it just shows -0.2db.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:15 AM   #57
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Apologies if I am misunderstanding the comments in this thread, but I can say for sure that REAPER's peak meters show the maximum sample value that is output from REAPER (or from the track, in the case of track meters).

If the source media is a lossless file that is played back at the original sample rate, the meters should show the maximum sample value contained in the file. REAPER does not interpolate intersample peaks or make any assumptions about what will happen to the audio signal after it leaves REAPER.

If there is sample rate conversion, MP3 decoding, or any other processing happening, the meters will show the maximum sample value after processing, which will be difficult to compare to the output of another audio application.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:15 AM   #58
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Again, looking at the waveform zoomed in there is a very narrow area (number of places) because it is a tone so the waveform repeats. Meaning the entire area of interest is between the first zero crossing and the next one. You have to zoom in so you can see the actual calculated waveform.

Once you see it, you'll know why tod said it is octaves because the waveform looks like the result of similarly combined sine waves. Hearing it is what made me want to zoom in to begin with because it sounded complex/synthesized and I wanted to have a look.
It 0-crosses at least 4 times per period. At 44,100 Hz, the period of 130 Hz tone is 339 samples -- a lot -- and Reaper lets me place the start position between samples, which is a lot more places.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:19 AM   #59
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Haha, well, like AmmoniumNitrate pointed out, I didn't try every single sample position within the file...but I did zoom into sample level and tried from the peaks on both sides, zero crossings and rising/falling edges, snap on and off. Nope. There must be something not tested yet, but surely nothing I would normally do seem to make it happen.
That makes me want to check the change lists or at least confirm what version we are all using. I mean AFAIK reaper has to read that data from the file and decide what the values are at the track level before anything else occurs. But we are at the edge of my knowing beyond that.

Not sure if I pointed out I see the faux clip at the track meter and the master so I was simply concentrating my efforts at the source aka the track.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:22 AM   #60
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It 0-crosses at least 4 times per period. At 44,100 Hz, the period of 130 Hz tone is 339 samples -- a lot -- and Reaper lets me place the start position between samples, which is a lot more places.
I just concentrated on 1 period or less if memory serves and visually or. If you can't repro it within three or four quick tries, something is different between your repro and mine or some other variable. Based on my repro yesterday, it was harder to make it not peak than to peak. Placing at the zero crossing never peaked IIRC.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:28 AM   #61
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Apologies if I am misunderstanding the comments in this thread, but I can say for sure that REAPER's peak meters show the maximum sample value that is output from REAPER (or from the track, in the case of track meters).

If the source media is a lossless file that is played back at the original sample rate, the meters should show the maximum sample value contained in the file. REAPER does not interpolate intersample peaks or make any assumptions about what will happen to the audio signal after it leaves REAPER.

If there is sample rate conversion, MP3 decoding, or any other processing happening, the meters will show the maximum sample value after processing, which will be difficult to compare to the output of another audio application.
I'll double check my testing but IIRC the track was at zero, the file data shows no overs or clipping but reaper (depending on where in the waveform playback is started) shows a single over who's value varies based on start position. I'll recheck my settings but I'm baffled as to why reaper can show +.12 the first time, + .8 the second then -.18 etc. by doing nothing more than moving the start position in relation to the waveform of the test tone. Remember this is simply a repeating tone, it's not different 2 seconds in than it was at 1 second in, it's just a waveform and when I tested I stayed on the same iteration of the wave. I do suggest it be tried with a pure sine wave though just for kicks.

Happy for that to be me though but not sure what I missed.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:33 AM   #62
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Okay, if you import media at source tempo it doesn't clip, it just shows -0.2db.
Sample-rate conversion while importing could turn an intersample clip into an explicit clip on a sample.

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Old 05-12-2014, 10:33 AM   #63
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Okay, if you import media at source tempo it doesn't clip, it just shows -0.2db.
I'll also add, if you set your project to 100-BPM then it won't matter how you import the file, it will show just -0.2db anywhere in the item.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:34 AM   #64
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At 44,100 Hz, the period of 130 Hz tone is 339 samples.
FYI and off topic to your point above, it isn't a 130 hz tone, it's a mixture of more than one tone based on what I heard and saw but assuming 130 is the fundamental. Just pointing out it isn't a pure tone, doesn't sound like one either if I remember but let's not trust my memory fully just yet.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:41 AM   #65
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... this is simply a repeating tone, it's not different 2 seconds in than it was at 1 second in....
The digital signal isn't periodic unless the tone's fundamental frequency divides your sample rate integrally, which isn't a warranted assumption here.

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Old 05-12-2014, 10:43 AM   #66
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FYI and off topic to your point above, it isn't a 130 hz tone, it's a mixture of more than one tone based on what I heard and saw but assuming 130 is the fundamental. Just pointing out it isn't a pure tone, doesn't sound like one either if I remember but let's not trust my memory fully just yet.
Like I mentioned above, it's 3 octaves of C starting at 130hrz or closely there of.

I actually sounds like an organ with a three octave stop.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:44 AM   #67
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Bitten by on the fly real time conversion. I did not notice mine was converting but it was, I can repro until I match the rates. If anyone else can repro with matched rates (project, file and soundcard) I'd consider it pursuable but otherwise the behavior I saw, its from the real time conversion.

I still have a machine to check on but I'm assuming it will be the same.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:58 AM   #68
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Yep. Tried so hard to make it happen that forgot I had already changed samplerates at some point too. Still took a while to get it going, lol.
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Old 05-12-2014, 11:12 AM   #69
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Yep. Tried so hard to make it happen that forgot I had already changed samplerates at some point too. Still took a while to get it going, lol.
You are a real trooper and I must apologize for taking you on that journey. I was sure I checked it properly but forgot the project settings will override. Schwa's comments reminded me to double check one last time. Thanks again, and sorry again.
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Old 05-12-2014, 11:43 AM   #70
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No need to apologize karbo. It was an interesting test session and a good reminder to keep better track of my test steps too, so thanks to you.
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