Old 08-19-2018, 12:06 PM   #41
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Well, I do a lot o kontakt too.
And you have any complains on workflow for that?
Other then probably expression Maps reaper workflow is clean. There is no need of extra requirements as far as i AM aware. Might be wrong Tho
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:06 PM   #42
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MikComposer is, for a big part, a Kontakt based musician. If I'm not awfully mistaken [Edit: echo : P ]
Yeah, a lot of kontakt, but also a lot of synth production in recent years.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:08 PM   #43
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And you have any complains on workflow for that?
Other then probably expression Maps reaper workflow is clean. There is no need of extra requirements as far as i AM aware. Might be wrong Tho
Expression maps would be great, as well as easier access to all important cc's.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:09 PM   #44
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There is no need of extra requirements as far as i AM aware. Might be wrong Tho
There isn't just one "Kontakt workflow", it's a combination of a load of different working habits and composing preferences and technical ways of constructing and editing your projects and on and on. For me, Reaper has been a blast in this sense. And I don't doubt one second that for MikComposer it hasn't been as pleasant, for reasons that are completely legit in his Kontakt workflow.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:31 PM   #45
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What this ALL boils down to is that everyone has their own preferences and it all gets a bit pointless trying to enlist everybody to your cause(s) when there obviously must be a pretty large number of users who are pretty happy with the way things are progressing.
FWIW I have a couple of minor niggles with Reaper (mostly on MIDI editing) but I dont bother moaning about ti since I accept that my workflow from a previous and sadly discontinued software is not going to interest either the devs or the rest of the reaper community much.

@Nik - you and I have sorta gotten along for a while as I do get where you are coming from, but it is a bit absurd to keep banging on about what you DONT like about Reaper when you dont even use it much any more.

Obviously you found a better fit for the way you like to work, but it leaves me wondering if you are bombarding the Cubase forums with a similar list of things you DONT like in CB.

And yes this last comment is supposed to be mildly funny, mate. Have fun!
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:41 PM   #46
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FWIW I have a couple of minor niggles with Reaper (mostly on MIDI editing)

I am curious of what they are ..
Can't imagine, whith almost everything possible in Reaper () , we can't solve them ..
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:49 PM   #47
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. But I have to say, I've been surprised at how the pure editing side feels more comfortable in Reaper for me these days.
Broken copy paste of automátion, different shortcuts for same task, dynamic split broken.
This is pure edition which i miss. I wish i felt the same as you, but i cant.
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:58 PM   #48
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Broken copy paste of automátion, different shortcuts for same task, dynamic split broken.
This is pure edition which i miss. I wish i felt the same as you, but i cant.
I use automation items, have specified my own shortcuts that are well unified for my needs, and haven't had a reason to think of the dynamic split as broken . I also like how you can directly increase and decrease any single item's rate, pitch and volume directly with the mousewheel (simply depending on the modifier), in increments convenient to your needs. Timestretching right in the arrangement view is also super quick once you sort it out to your personal preferences. But yeah, after I started doing micro edits with a combination of these ^ I have wished it was possible also in Live. All subjective, though, again I know you have valid issues with the copy paste and the like.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:03 PM   #49
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I started using Reaper because it was a super-simple DAW with a logical work flow and none of the legacy BS of Pro Tools. I started getting deeper into features and actions as I started working more and needing specific tools to solve problems that kept coming up, but to date it's always flowed naturally from my usage needs and never been the result of just seeing that something is available.

Reaper still works quite well as a DAW, and as my needs have grown so have the available options. I wouldn't consider it cluttered, but that's because I've only added things as I've needed them.

There are more technically adept guitarists out there, but I have never wanted to emulate them.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:12 PM   #50
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I use automation items, have specified my own shortcuts that are well unified for my needs, and haven't had a reason to think of the dynamic split as broken . I also like how you can directly increase and decrease any single item's rate, pitch and volume directly with the mousewheel (simply depending on the modifier), in increments convenient to your needs. Timestretching right in the arrangement view is also super quick once you sort it out to your personal preferences. But yeah, after I started doing micro edits with a combination of these ^ I have wished it was possible also in Live. All subjective, though, again I know you have valid issues with the copy paste and the like.
1 ) dynamic split is broken:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209977

2 ) different behaviours and shortcuts:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209999
I will have to spend time on config some of this things, anyway, I still don't get who benefits of having a glue shortcut for AI, another shorcut for Item and another for join midi editor notes.

Even if i could do all of them, (which i can't), every user would need to make this changes. I don't know for who this design is ment for, it seems oriented for the design itself, scripts and bots but not for users (IMO).

3) Automation - much already been said

I am not sure of the subjectivess of what i am telling, but might be point of view, but ..! i don't know

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Old 08-19-2018, 01:18 PM   #51
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@Nik - you and I have sorta gotten along for a while as I do get where you are coming from, but it is a bit absurd to keep banging on about what you DONT like about Reaper when you dont even use it much any more.

Obviously you found a better fit for the way you like to work, but it leaves me wondering if you are bombarding the Cubase forums with a similar list of things you DONT like in CB.

And yes this last comment is supposed to be mildly funny, mate. Have fun!
Luckily for you, I already posted couple of nitpicks on steinbergs forum, so crack up But those are some super minor issues that don't even come close to issues I have had in reaper. I bet anyone of you would get aggressive, when after grinding for days complex track for client, part of it starts sounding off all of the sudden, and sometimes days will pass before you even notice because it's a part of the track you considered finished and moved on. But first intuition I have is that I have done something wrong, just then to hours later find out that it's a snapping bug. And this had happened many time. So its issues like this and many more that have been very disheartening, and frankly as I said before, I have wasted a lot of time. And I bring up them often, cause I do like a lot about Reaper, and would like to work in it more, but as it is now, I can't.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:18 PM   #52
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FWIW I have a couple of minor niggles with Reaper (mostly on MIDI editing)

I am curious of what they are ..
Can't imagine, whith almost everything possible in Reaper () , we can't solve them ..
For me there is one aspect of midi editor which looks unresolvable. Functionally Reaper MIDI editor is very good. I also like its simple clean look. But feel is not good. The way how it responds to click and drag actions, speed of zoom changes is somehow wrong. Especially CC line editing requires too much clicking, those CC bars are too thick, overlap too much and behave unintuitive, I always miss the right one and keep drawing and redrawing them.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:23 PM   #53
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@deeb:

1) Haven't bumped into this, it seems to manifest in a specific way of using dynamic split I don't regularly use. Good thing it's already being worked on.

2) I have unified the shortcuts I use, so I don't have any issues with these.

3) Yep, I've seen the conversation, and it would be great to have the selection workflow more flexible in version 6. Hasn't bothered me personally, as I've built my workflow around item actions, and they work fine for me.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:27 PM   #54
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And I bring up them often, cause I do like a lot about Reaper, and would like to work in it more, but as it is now, I can't.
I have been exactly like this on other DAWs' forums in the yesteryears, so I haven't held back in the past when I thought "if they just added this and fixed this, I'd so like to work in it more, but it's just too much as of present" -- then I realized, at some point it's just not about the DAW but the user. If there are multiple major things that bring grief time after time, instead of small "oh, it would be cool if this detail worked this way", the more there are of those major things that bug you the less likely it is you will be satisfied with your chosen environment any time soon. And then you need to move on.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:31 PM   #55
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1) Haven't bumped into this, it seems to manifest in a specific way of using dynamic split I don't regularly use. Good thing it's already being worked on.

2) I have unified the shortcuts I use, so I don't have any issues with these.

3) Yep, I've seen the conversation, and it would be great to have the selection workflow more flexible in version 6. Hasn't bothered me personally, as I've built my workflow around item actions, and they work fine for me.
ok thanks : )

1) good for you! unfortunately not the same here
2) I had to spend more than an year to find out this was 1 of my problems (and every new user will have to go thrue the same). Still, .. who benefits with this design?
3) good for you! unfortunately not the same here
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:39 PM   #56
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2) I had to spend more than an year to find out this was 1 of my problems (and every new user will have to go thrue the same). Still, .. who benefits with this design?
Nobody benefits. In my opinion it would make more sense if they were unified out of the box.

However, if you're an experienced audio/music person inclined to shape that malleable workspace of yours , and you already know the way you want to work, you just go "oh, looky that, the shortcuts don't match" and fix it then and there.

Having everything sorted out like in Studio One, for example, would be better for beginners and for those who are more "give me an out of the box experience to learn, I don't want to do this meta stuff" minded. Nothing wrong with that. There are also lots of options for those fixed workflows already. It would be really coooool to have it both ways, make it super slick and accommodate both types of users. It's the same as when I was with Studio One, asking for this and that, and I just understood I wasn't exactly in the target audience. Yeah, lots of things would be realy coooool .
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:49 PM   #57
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Nobody benefits. In my opinion it would make more sense if they were unified out of the box.

However, if you're an experienced audio/music person inclined to shape that malleable workspace of yours , and you already know the way you want to work, you just go "oh, looky that, the shortcuts don't match" and fix it then and there.
It's Not that simple in my experience!
- It's takes a lot of time and focus **, then needs some Specific reaper config experience.
- ** When i am in composing mode i don't want to be thinking in anything else or fixing (maybe that's my problem)

And i am not afraid of configuration and learning ... most users i guess would just go! and i would too but i am kind of a geek guy which loves the API : )
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:56 PM   #58
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And what would happen to existing users if all the shortcuts were revised at some date..?
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:56 PM   #59
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Meanwhile, total DAW noobs jump right in on REAPER and use it no problem
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:06 PM   #60
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It's Not that simple in my experience!
- It's takes a lot of time and focus **, then needs some Specific reaper config experience.
- ** When i am in composing mode i don't want to be thinking in anything else or fixing (maybe that's my problem)
When I transitioned from Studio One, it took about one month (give or take a week) to delve into all of it and build it for my needs from the ground up. Working on commissions in the day, learning and building the Reaper environment at evenings and night, methodically going through it and trying out whether it's a good fit for my needs or not, recreating project templates and workflows and so on.

A month sounds like a long time, but compared to getting a superb fit for your workflow that you can benefit from for years, it's not long at all. And if it turns out it's lacking and you don't want to use it, then move on.

So... Hmm, a month, with an extensive background in DAWs, computers and so on, and already knowing the actual principles and practices of audio/music production. For someone starting out, the main problem would simply be... not even knowing what is possible, what production methods are applicable in different situations, what methods even exist, and so on. Learning both the craft of producing/composing/mixing AND trying to figure out how to construct your working environment would be a no go (for me it would have been, back in the day, at least). In those cases it would just be, as said above, jump in and use it as is. And hope it works for you as your first DAW har.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:15 PM   #61
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Meanwhile, total DAW noobs jump right in on REAPER and use it no problem

maybe! well i changed many many many things : ) TBH i don't know how to use reaper other than mine.
Anyway! Just keep my experience as a single user experience. Reaper is not not very conventional by default. Software tends to be pretty much the same on usability and main shortcuts. And users are "trained" and start expecting same way of working between different vendors. IMO. (because some usability stays almost as standards)

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Old 08-19-2018, 02:19 PM   #62
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When I transitioned from Studio One, it took about one month (give or take a week) to delve into all of it and build it for my needs from the ground up. Working on commissions in the day, learning and building the Reaper environment at evenings and night, methodically going through it and trying out whether it's a good fit for my needs or not, recreating project templates and workflows and so on.

A month sounds like a long time, but compared to getting a superb fit for your workflow that you can benefit from for years, it's not long at all. And if it turns out it's lacking and you don't want to use it, then move on.

So... Hmm, a month, with an extensive background in DAWs, computers and so on, and already knowing the actual principles and practices of audio/music production. For someone starting out, the main problem would simply be... not even knowing what is possible, what production methods are applicable in different situations, what methods even exist, and so on. Learning both the craft of producing/composing/mixing AND trying to figure out how to construct your working environment would be a no go (for me it would have been, back in the day, at least). In those cases it would just be, as said above, jump in and use it as is. And hope it works for you as your first DAW har.

Even knowing and having different DAWs experience I took much time! since i changed so many things. And configuration in reaper as no parallel with any other DAW - it's a WORLD. Before i concluded about the shortcuts i had many other issues which i could resolve one by one. : ) After that i stuck in 2 or 3 things which i can't do anything about.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:23 PM   #63
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And what would happen to existing users if all the shortcuts were revised at some date..?
That i don't know! : )
Keep the old and make the new magic functions on the same menu? And so user might delete the ones he does not want from menus and so just needed to change the keyboard shortcuts to the useful one?
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:28 PM   #64
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IMO that would be a big pain!
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:29 PM   #65
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So many answers but no one gets to the point. He doesn't mean Reaper is not cool or super. Its the opposite. He criticizes, it more and more turns into a nerd workstation instead of getting more easy and more user friendly. Reaper is great, but it needs way more usability. I also criticized that in many posts.

I talked with a lot of people about how they got into Reaper and EVERYONE told me, they first tried it several times (over years) and just gave up several times before realizing what power in Reaper sleeps. This is a hint which the developer and the community should consider for further developments.

When I see how all the geeks are jumping around in happiness when another weird tiny "FEATURE" gets into a new version while the workflow gets more and more complicated with a thousand scripts and workarounds i ask myself: where will this end? Will Reaper turn into worlds most complicated DAW but with the worlds most available possibilities? Its just annoying to see how every other daw tries to simplify every step while Reaper just stays the same and adds more and more features.

Reapack and SWS are indeed great features but for beginners its time consuming, irritating and "NOT making music". Yes of course, most of you programmers and scriptwriters don't see a thing, because its your world. But new users and beginners don't have a clue. They read: "install this and that, put this and that into a folder, make these five steps to create a shortcut and put script a, b, c, d, e, f and g together to have a custom script to get the standard feature of an other DAW." And then they try Live or FL Studio and wont come back.

Just my thoughts. And in the forums are lots of questions or simple requests about how the sampler, the media browser etc. should be more user friendly. It sounds of course boring. But ...

Greetings from Cologne

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Exactly! I love Reaper, but I wish it had a more user friendly interface "out of the box," so to speak. I'm a programmer, but when I go to make music, I want to make music, not program the thing to help me make music.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:42 PM   #66
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IMO that would be a big pain!
probably! but compromise the usuability on the future based on just that would be sad. And i am sure they would know a solution. I guess reaper heads had already faced the same situation for other things.

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Old 08-19-2018, 02:48 PM   #67
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Reaper slowly becomes IDE, not DAW.
More like an audio OS: providing a versatile infrastructure and offering the tools that allow "basic" users to work with same, plus the tools for developers to make use of it.

-Michael
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:51 PM   #68
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More like an audio OS: providing a versatile infrastructure and offering the tools that allow "basic" users to work with same, plus the tools for developers to make use of it.

-Michael
the thing is that most things that are written in this thread i think wouldn't change anything on your statement. It would be just more easy out of the box for anyone IMO and wouldn't change REAPER Philosophy at all. It's just usability and connecting the dots for a much wider range of users.

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Old 08-19-2018, 03:08 PM   #69
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It's just usability and connecting the dots for a much wider range of users.
I agree, and that's what I was getting at with my "yeah, lots of things would be realy coooool" comment

It's the same thing in something like Studio One, and me going (not literally, but basically meaning this) "make it more like Reaper" -- that is, more open-ended, more scriptable, more open routing, better custom template support, all-around more custom this and that and... so on.

It would be really cooool.

Just like Reaper would be really coool if it had a user experience of Studio One's stature, as a starting point, out of the box.

The thing is, both of these scenarios are unlikely, each of these environments have their strong points and their respective core audiences, they will both slowly evolve also in those areas that they are lacking in, BUT if you personally prioritize key areas that aren't represented in either software at present, and feel stressed after choosing the "wrong one", the logical thing isn't to wait for all of that coooolness to arrive, it is to switch your main application to one that does the things you prioritize in the manner you want to do them, today.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:13 PM   #70
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a much wider range of users.
OK. So please do a decent psychological / statistical research on what exactly will benefit potential new users (as well DAW newbies as converters from lots of other DAWs.

If you have some 1000 results, the viability of any of the potential requests might be discussed in depth. (Of course the obvious current benefits stated here by multiple posters are not to be compromised.)

Right here, we have nothing but personal feelings (mine and yours included).

If the research does not provide some definite result, it might be a better idea to recommend the really unhappy ones to try some other software.

-Michael

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Old 08-19-2018, 03:14 PM   #71
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In summary, by all means let's have a better user experience and an easier to jump into DAW, with a clearly laid out GUI and a streamlined workflow out of the box , without taking away any of the current open-endedness and efficiency. And then smoothly accommodate all the new users who are there to enjoy the software from square one.

That would rock.

In the mean time, though....
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:14 PM   #72
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Right here, we have nothing but personal feelings (mine and yours included).
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:18 PM   #73
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It seems like a lot of the sentiment in threads like this seems to lean toward "I want this software to suit my workflow, but I'm not willing to invest the time and energy into making that happen."

Maybe someone could design an "Installation template" for Reaper that includes configuration files, menus, tweaks, etc, all bundled into one package. Kind of like how there's Ubuntu, and then there's Ubuntu Studio, etc.

Or maybe we could ditch this sense of entitlement, that Cockos' $60 program should cater to everyone's needs simultaneously, even though that sort of bloatware-esque mentality is the opposite of the core design philosophy of the devs. Their design philosophy is the biggest selling point for me, personally; it's why I left Cubase and never once looked back.

I agree with Pipeline's succinct observation above, having introduced Reaper to some DAW-illiterate musician friends who were able to figure out everything they needed to figure out within a couple hours. I mean... plug in a microphone, make a new track, and hit record; that covers probably 90% of use cases as far as a musician is concerned. If not, Kenny Gioia's videos are an awesome resource.

People are out there making albums, without ever installing plugins or ReaPack or even SWS. I know a few of them personally. Hell, one of them can't even figure out where to put VST plugins on his Mac, and he still makes music in Reaper just fine.


If no tool in existence suits your workflow, then maybe your workflow is the problem, not the tool. Or maybe you just need to accept the necessity of having a varied assortment of specific tools for specific tasks, like they do in, oh, every industry ever.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:22 PM   #74
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Their design philosophy is the biggest selling point for me, personally; it's why I left Cubase and never once looked back.
Replacing Cubase with Studio One in that statement, for me, and this is exactly how I feel about it as well.

I'd also like to add, waiting for that near-perfect tool to drop is usually futile, and instead, grab the one that suits your creative goals and habits best, with warts and all, and work from there.

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Or maybe you just need to accept the necessity of having a varied assortment of specific tools for specific tasks, like they do in, oh, every industry ever.
Also well said
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:23 PM   #75
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I agree, and that's what I was getting at with my "yeah, lots of things would be realy coooool" comment

It's the same thing in something like Studio One, and me going (not literally, but basically meaning this) "make it more like Reaper" -- that is, more open-ended, more scriptable, more open routing, better custom template support, all-around more custom this and that and... so on.
ok! : ) hope some other users might agree also, otherwise that they manifest their point of view


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The thing is, both of these scenarios are unlikely, each of these environments have their strong points and their respective core audiences, they will both slowly evolve also in those areas that they are lacking in, BUT if you personally prioritize key areas that aren't represented in either software at present, and feel stressed after choosing the "wrong one", the logical thing isn't to wait for all of that coooolness to arrive, it is to switch your main application to one that does the things you prioritize in the manner you want to do them, today.
yes i get it! Thanks for the heads up! there are things i won't be able to do anything about, but the "unification" of shortcuts and behaviour i will be able to do in 80%. I will! and Hopefully will do my next album in reaper : )
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:23 PM   #76
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... I expect that soon there will be sites that sell "personalized" DAWs built from Reaper (OEM) plus dedicated extension plus support offer for those who are willing to invest money in getting the workflow they desire in a speedy and secure way.

-Michael
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:30 PM   #77
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OK. So please do a decent psychological / statistical research on what exactly will benefit potential new users (as well DAW newbies as converters from lots of other DAWs.

If you have some 1000 results, the viability of any of the potential requests might be discussed in depth. (Of course the obvious current benefits stated here by multiple posters are not to be compromised.)

Right here, we have nothing but personal feelings (mine and yours included).

If the research does not provide some definite result, it might be a better idea to recommend the really unhappy ones to try some other software.

-Michael
Can you do the study/psychological / statistical research and proove otherwise?

- how can area selection not benefit anyone and much more users? it's just as useful as copy paste if you think about it (or more... since area selection owns copy paste).
- how having the same short cut for same "function" not help most people?
You would prefer a different shortcut for copy paste item? other for copy paste note, and other for copy paste AI?


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If the research does not provide some definite result, it might be a better idea to recommend the really unhappy ones to try some other software.
If you don't prove with your statical research/study otherwise, i don't recommend you to change DAW , because the DAW will stay perfect to you as is, even if they change the points i am refering. More: even without you knowing , .. you would even like it more ...

Last edited by deeb; 08-19-2018 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:57 PM   #78
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By default, with the default settings, DAW noobs and ancient analog engineers use it no problem. The problems I always see are when people coming from other DAWs try to use their old styles with it. A biggie used to be mouse tools, people would be pissed that they couldn't figure out how to switch mouse tools in REAPER, but i remember seeing the same thing when people were trying to use Vegas....Noobs have no expectation of needing to do that, so they just carry on getting their songs recorded and mixed
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:01 PM   #79
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By default, with the default settings, DAW noobs and ancient analog engineers use it no problem. The problems I always see are when people coming from other DAWs try to use their old styles with it. A biggie used to be mouse tools, people would be pissed that they couldn't figure out how to switch mouse tools in REAPER, but i remember seeing the same thing when people were trying to use Vegas....Noobs have no expectation of needing to do that, so they just carry on getting their songs recorded and mixed
Well that might be a fact! but that does not change if reaper makes it better usability out of the box for not noobs. And DAW and software noobs will benefit with it either. Who does not benefit?
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Old 08-19-2018, 04:03 PM   #80
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I have been using Reaper for a long time now, and I am used to much of it's ways. But if I were just jumping into Reaper today I would likely be dizzied by it all and thinking about looking for something simpler. I think it is very easy for people who have grown into using some system to lose sight of a beginner perspective.

That said, there isn't a daw being developed that I would rather use over Reaper. I think it is the best there is.

If you are feeling overwhelmed (reasonably so), try keeping your music making time separate from your 'figuring out Reaper' time. Work within your abilities during your music making time, but keep a pad handy for quickly jotting things down that you would like to be able to do, not getting so involved with it to let it interfere with your music making time. At some point when you aren't making music, go back to your pad, brainstorm a bit, prioritize what you have, and start trying to figure those things out and/or searching for answers on the forum, in the manual, in videos. And try to optimize doing those things for how you would like them to work. Alot of processes in Reaper are a bit like commandline utilities. Once you know how they work, you can string them together in an automated fashion. You don't necessairly have to jump into scripting things. Custom actions can be quickly put together with just a little searching and clicking in the actions list. And custom keys and mouse actions can be setup. But do all this when you aren't making music, and I think you'll have a better time with it all.
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