Did Reaper jump the audio shark ?

[Borodog]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Thanks for telling me what to do. I had no idea. "Carefully thought out"? not always.

Reaper is probably the most well thought out piece of software I've ever used. There doean't seem to be any part of it that is slapdash. It's hugely powerful yet lightweight and very stable. That doesn't happen by accident. It happens with a tremendous amount of planning and attention to detail. It comes from making sure that each enhancement is caredully integrated and doesn't break something else. I imagine that the dev team has a pretty deep set of feature requests that have to be prioritized. Stuff gets prioritized according to both what the users want and how difficult it is to implement.

I've never had a problem tracking live bands with Reaper.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Borodog

There doean't seem to be any part of it that is slapdash.

I wouldn't say that... there are quite some parts that are half-assed and left that way... Also there are tons of workflow inconsistencies (let's just start with names of actions which are all over the place), which shows not enough thought being put into things. On the other hand, there are certain aspects that ARE in fact extremely well thought out. But it is not the case for the whole of Reaper as a program.

[esosotericmetal]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

Last I checked (yep, just double checked) you can make tracks, set inputs, and press record. Everything else you need is outside the DAW.

Instead of being vague, list the features you find are missing for live tracking, or link to previous feature requests.

While that comment was hyperbolic, the guy has a point (sort of). I think the main issues are related to grouping, takes, comping and their related features (or lack of). They work fine with single tracks but doing large track counts that all need to stay in phase can get cumbersome when you get into editing, comping, and take management. Especially when the band wants you to do some of those things simultaneously and interchangeably during a tracking session. I run a recording studio and use Reaper mainly now, but it's taken me a few years of using it on the side to be comfortable using it for those kind of sessions with paying clients. And it still is cumbersome and messy in certain situation. Not a big deal when you're working by yourself, but it can really kill the flow of a tracking session when there are musicians in the other room waiting on you.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Coachz

The last mix I did was 150 tracks with 70 musicians on it. Just the choir was 25 tracks. Yeah Reaper kicks butt but I'm a power user and like power features when tracking/mixing.

Hey Coachz, you do seem to have some pain and frustration. Personally I give you about 90% credit for the VCAs that we have now, you certainly complained enough until it got done.

Here you're talking about "power features", but that is a very vague description that don't mean much. A power feature to me, or some other guy, might be totally different then your concept of it.

To me when I think of "power features", I look at all the actions in Reaper, and the way you can put them together to do almost anything. I don't think there's another DAW in the world that can do that.

I must say, a project with 150 tracks with 70 musicians, is not your normal type project and can very easily be overwhelming. But the way I see it, no matter which DAW you use, you're going to have to set up all the tracks and routing so that you can deal with it. Is this where Reaper's falling down for you?

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

I wouldn't say that... there are quite some parts that are half-assed and left that way... Also there are tons of workflow inconsistencies (let's just start with names of actions which are all over the place), which shows not enough thought being put into things. On the other hand, there are certain aspects that ARE in fact extremely well thought out. But it is not the case for the whole of Reaper as a program.

It's what super talented cyberpunk coders mash together when there's no professionals managing the project.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

As a joke, I think Justin made a mode so you could hide the contents of events when they were being moved, then it can be as awesome as those alleged pro apps if you really want

I think that joke (and that complaint) played out a few years back. We must regularly update the PT bashing talking points to stay up to date.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Tod

To me when I think of "power features", I look at all the actions in Reaper, and the way you can put them together to do almost anything. I don't think there's another DAW in the world that can do that.

Reaper's great, but just because something can be done doesn't mean that thing is best case or even close to it. It's not a contest really but there are obviously features and workflows out there beyond Reaper's current capability.

(Don't ask, the subsequent meta-discussion of that has an express ticket to the bottom of the cherry picking toilet bowl.)

[Tod]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

I wouldn't say that... there are quite some parts that are half-assed and left that way... Also there are tons of workflow inconsistencies (let's just start with names of actions which are all over the place), which shows not enough thought being put into things. On the other hand, there are certain aspects that ARE in fact extremely well thought out. But it is not the case for the whole of Reaper as a program.

Agreed, and I think they've been cleaning up some of these things here of late, haven't they?

Heh heh, yeah, the name of the actions can be a little strange, and take some trial and error to find what you want. Of course the most important part is having the right search words, and this is where there are some inconsistences. Like "remove" or "delete" to mention just one. The big problem here, is that these things can't be changed without messing up a lot of Reaper users shortcuts and toolbars.

[Lawrence]

^^^ True. ^^^

It's a different philosophy, to try that hard to not break any previous workflows. That has both clear upsides and downsides, with one downside being there likely won't ever be a "lessons learned" re-imagining of Reaper.

That is to say, some products do morph over time, re-design, change, with the downside of breaking previous workflows at times, but the large changes are typically for the better. I mean, Logic isn't the same as it was, neither is Cubase, Sonar, DP. They all fundamentally re-designed along the way. Reaper probably won't ever do that.

I also expect to see a new Sony Vegas at some point now that the Samp people have it.

It will be interesting to see where Reaper is in 15-20 more years.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Reaper's great, but just because something can be done doesn't mean that thing is best case or even close to it. It's not a contest really but there are obviously features and workflows out there beyond Reaper's current capability.

Aah Lawrence, I truly love you, you are truly out best philosopher.

But to say "there are obviously features and workflows out there beyond Reaper's current capability", without explaining the details to back it up, is really just more hearsay, right?

I think the main thing about Reaper, is that it has the biggest learning curve of any DAW, especially to turn it into your own super DAW that's going to do what you want.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I think that joke (and that complaint) played out a few years back. We must regularly update the PT bashing talking points to stay up to date.

I think it still stands well to show the design philosophy mindset behind it, and really, why REAPER ever really came to be. Long before there was even a REAPER, all the alleged toy, hobby apps had this most fundamental basic. The idea that the alleged pinnacle, the education industry standard, wouldn't have immediately rectified this basic omission speaks volumes

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

It will be interesting to see where Reaper is in 15-20 more years.

Probably open source, and sooner than that.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by Borodog

Reaper is probably the most well thought out piece of software I've ever used. There doean't seem to be any part of it that is slapdash. It's hugely powerful yet lightweight and very stable. That doesn't happen by accident. It happens with a tremendous amount of planning and attention to detail. It comes from making sure that each enhancement is caredully integrated and doesn't break something else. I imagine that the dev team has a pretty deep set of feature requests that have to be prioritized. Stuff gets prioritized according to both what the users want and how difficult it is to implement.

I've never had a problem tracking live bands with Reaper.

I disagree. I wrote an entire Reaper document on comping because the tracking/punching modes are so confusing. Even after I clearly documented the modes it is still confusing as hell to me and most users.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hey Coachz, you do seem to have some pain and frustration. Personally I give you about 90% credit for the VCAs that we have now, you certainly complained enough until it got done.

Here you're talking about "power features", but that is a very vague description that don't mean much. A power feature to me, or some other guy, might be totally different then your concept of it.

To me when I think of "power features", I look at all the actions in Reaper, and the way you can put them together to do almost anything. I don't think there's another DAW in the world that can do that.

I must say, a project with 150 tracks with 70 musicians, is not your normal type project and can very easily be overwhelming. But the way I see it, no matter which DAW you use, you're going to have to set up all the tracks and routing so that you can deal with it. Is this where Reaper's falling down for you?

I think esotericmetal (post above) is understanding the challenges. For me the vca solution is "ok" but would have been more intuitive with just a feature to allow sends to follow parents. The over 5000 actions in Reaper really make it whip the Llama's ass compared to other DAWs.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

It's what super talented cyberpunk coders mash together when there's no professionals managing the project.

So true!!!

[James HE]

Originally Posted by Coachz

The last mix I did was 150 tracks with 70 musicians on it. Just the choir was 25 tracks. Yeah Reaper kicks butt but I'm a power user and like power features when tracking/mixing.

Sorry, I'm really curious here. Please defend, or explain. Why does recording a choir take 25 tracks?


*edited for clarity

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by Coachz

The last mix I did was 150 tracks with 70 musicians on it. Just the choir was 25 tracks. Yeah Reaper kicks butt but I'm a power user and like power features when tracking/mixing.

The last mix I did was with 700 tracks with 300 musicians on it. I'm a power user.

[MikComposer]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

if only

Haha True

[Borodog]

let's just start with names of actions which are all over the place

You got me there.

[semiquaver]

Justin has most recently been working on transient markers. audio. Also recently ambisonics and multi-channel stuff have received a little love. stretch markers, input and monitoring fx. ..

Audio has been moving forward

[insub]

I must admit, take comping in REAPER is still elusive to me. I was used to the way one would comp takes in Cubase. I always end up exploding my takes to separate tracks to comp. Luckily, I just haven't been working on projects where comping was possible. No extra takes to comp, or collaborating with people online who already comped their own takes.

[esosotericmetal]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Probably open source, and sooner than that.

Care to elaborate on why you think that?

[FKAB]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Probably open source, and sooner than that.

That's brilliant. Maybe I can recompile it with the Mixbus Mixer code.

In my opinion, and which I have been asking for for years, is a proper Mixer in REAPER, so I tend to agree with OP as such. Reaper's Tracking and Editing and Mixbus's Mixer. Done!! And I did buy Mixbus because of Reaper's lack of a Mixer and I dumped a large swathe of time and money wasting plugins. And no MIDI shall enter here.

REAPER - Rapid Environment for AUDIO Production etc, has become a MIDI and Video toy.

And just to point out, that the current competition has NO MIDI instruments, all recorded musicians.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by James HE

Sorry, I'm really curious here. Please defend, or explain. Why does recording a choir take 25 tracks?
*edited for clarity

Nice to see you James HE ! I didn't record the choir, I just mixed those tracks but there were a ton of them with Males on some Females on others, Alto, Tenor, Sopranos etc... It made mixing easy.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by JamesPeters

The last mix I did was with 700 tracks with 300 musicians on it. I'm a power user.

You might be a super power user in that case.

[rog951]

Originally Posted by James HE

Sorry, I'm really curious here. Please defend, or explain. Why does recording a choir take 25 tracks?


*edited for clarity

Perhaps each choir member got a scat solo?

[FKAB]

Play the Ball, not the Man!

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Tod

But to say "there are obviously features and workflows out there beyond Reaper's current capability", without explaining the details to back it up, is really just more hearsay, right?

Nope. It's avoiding the repetitive daw war drama that happens whenever that discussion comes up. The above is clearly true about - every - pro audio workstation (no exceptions) and if you think it's not true about Reaper, you're not really looking. It's not up to me to continually explain what anyone can see if they really need to know.

It has nothing to do with not being able to make music. We can make music with any of them. If you want to know what some of those things are, there's a really easy way, look in the FR forum.

[Coachz]

Yes Lawrence. By the way......Happy Friday everyone. Reaper is great !

[lolilol1975]

Honestly, people have been waiting for MIDI improvements for so long that it's hard to complain.

I will also certainly not complain about the fact that bugs are being taken into account and sometimes fixed between 35 mn and 60 mn after they are reported !

[ivansc]

Just the devs being flash and showing off...

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by lolilol1975

Honestly, people have been waiting for MIDI improvements for so long that it's hard to complain.

I will also certainly not complain about the fact that bugs are being taken into account and sometimes fixed between 35 mn and 60 mn after they are reported !

I totally understand that users have waited for MIDI improvements. Since I don't really use midi though I can't wait for the return to audio. It's been a couple of years now of midi focus, but i'm patient but old. :-)

[Borodog]

Those bug fixes are midi related, and hence do not count.

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by Coachz

It's been a couple of years now of midi focus, but i'm patient but old. :-)

Not really if you look at the patch notes for old releases.

http://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php

There were a couple of releases early this summer with more MIDI content than usually, but you only have to go back until January for an update with no MIDI fixes at all. As I already noted above, there's no real focus in REAPER development- which isn't necessarily a bad thing imo, there's tons of things that need attention.

[onebaldbloke]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

I

Clip-based plugins? Pro Tools just added that to 12.6 but only with their channelstrip plugin. Reaper you can put any plugin you own on a clip. Mind blowing.

Point of order - Samplitude has had this since its beginning, over 20 years ago. It's called the "Object Editor".

Cheers,
Bob.

[champ]

Originally Posted by Coachz

I disagree. I wrote an entire Reaper document on comping because the tracking/punching modes are so confusing. Even after I clearly documented the modes it is still confusing as hell to me and most users.

man, i've read that thing many times over the years and still have a hard time as well. sorry to hear the author also does!

[Icchan]

C'mon people...

they work on MIDI -> Audio guys whine.
they work on audio -> MIDI guys whine
they work on video -> Audio and MIDI guys whine...

Just... please!

Reaper's MIDI has gotten a long awaited face lift and it's much better to work with (even if there's still big things to get included to Reaper) so don't rip your pants on it :/

Just be happy they work on it at all

[EpicSounds]

I can't be the only one that needs audio, midi and video in one app. Very thankful for what we have and whatever is to come.

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by FKAB

That's brilliant. Maybe I can recompile it with the Mixbus Mixer code.

Or you can add this plugin to each track/bus, using a tiny fraction of CPU:

http://www.airwindows.com/channel4vst/

Oh wait you can do that now!

BTW his "Pressure4" compressor is pretty awesome too, and "FathomFive" is cool. Save yourself some time and don't watch the videos, just download the plugins. Then after you've used the plugins, go watch the videos for a chuckle.

Originally Posted by FKAB

REAPER - Rapid Environment for AUDIO Production etc, has become a MIDI and Video toy.

A great one! A very useful professional toy.

Originally Posted by FKAB

And just to point out, that the current competition has NO MIDI instruments, all recorded musicians.

I'm sure you'll survive.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Icchan

C'mon people...

they work on MIDI -> Audio guys whine.
they work on audio -> MIDI guys whine
they work on video -> Audio and MIDI guys whine...

Just... please!

Reaper's MIDI has gotten a long awaited face lift and it's much better to work with (even if there's still big things to get included to Reaper) so don't rip your pants on it :/

Just be happy they work on it at all

</THREAD>