>>V4 : Theme 22 March Discussion - Read First Post

[Mercado_Negro]

I love pan knobs!

[jdutaillis]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

I love pan knobs!

<3 <3 <3

[Wilkesin]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

I love pan knobs!

Ditto. I want the width knob in there on all stereo tracks too. Why have a feature not readily accessible? I am also probably the ONLY person who wants the Master Mixer Panel to take on the same style as the MCP style (sidebar) but I can still hold out hope....

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by Wilkesin

Ditto. I want the width knob in there on all stereo tracks too. Why have a feature not readily accessible? I am also probably the ONLY person who wants the Master Mixer Panel to take on the same style as the MCP style (sidebar) but I can still hold out hope....

The problem is there's not such thing as a 'stereo track' in REAPER so it's up to the user to show the width knobs by setting them to 'Stereo Pan'.

[EDIT] I'll just sneak this in http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=266 Huge time saver!

[henge]

Great theme WT!

[Pfhuck]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

I love pan knobs!

Meeee toooooo! ( . ) ( . )

It should be possible for the default theme to have layouts with both knobs AND sliders for panning.

No?

How many tcp/mcp layouts are possible?

The v3 default theme has always been my favorite. Nice that the v4 is headed in the same direction.

XOXOXO to the Theme Team!!!

[geoslake]

Great theme !
When I chose NOT to display the "playback rate control", its still displayed, at the left, under the global automation override thing, guess it's a bug.

[strinxx]

This theme is great! Thank you WT!
We got color AND contrast! And it "runs" really smooth!
Yipppiiiiieeee!

And Waiter... a portion Pan-Sliders for me please!

[rumpelfilter]

I can confirm that the Theme is just as great in use as I expected it to be. Huge kudos!

My only gripe remains the toolbar buttons (as has been already pointed out).
The thing is: they look good, they just lack the usability you would expect from toolbar buttons.

I'll try to be more precise.

- the lcd-like aestethics work really well and make the buttons stand out in the interface (maybe this logic chould be applied to all the buttons in the UI, not just the toolbar, to make it all more consistent)

-The choice to make them buttons (with a pressed and non-pressed state), is a good idea. Also I find the suggestion to further differentiate the state by lowering contrast on the non-pressed state a good one.

- The choice of using green and red (and grey) to differentiate the buttons is also a good one

- there is just too much detail, for example: I don't need the checkboxes next to the lock or the track beneath the envelope to understand what the icons means. Some icons like the ripple editing button are quite hard to interpret if you don't know what it means already.
I'd just take away everything that is not essential...

[karl]

Originally Posted by rumpelfilter

Some icons like the ripple editing button are quite hard to interpret if you don't know what it means already.

Maybe, but I think that's true of many GUI icons anyway - and the ripple edit button in particular! In previous versions of Reaper I had no idea what it was or what it did until I investigated. Of course, I didn't know much about ripple editing either - or rather I understood the concept, just didn't know that's what it was called!

But I digress - the point is though that I don't think it matters how much detail it has or not - you either know what it does or you don't, but once you do know what it does you recognise it from its icon.

Basically, whatever software you're using, there are icons that have to be learnt before you know what it is they do!

Besides, I think the new ripple button, with the addition of the little hand, tell you more about what it does than previous version ever did!

[mrelwood]

Originally Posted by karl

I don't think it matters how much detail it has or not - you either know what it does or you don't, but once you do know what it does you recognise it from its icon.

Unless all icons look like greenish blur at a glance. My story on the ripple is identical, and it would've been the same with the new icon also. Having to learn once is normal. Having to glimpse and stare every time is bad.

On the panning, user selectable could be good. I'd be happy with either slider or a pot. Even watched Pan's Labyrinth yesterday. Still can't decide.

But a pan slider would be easier to handle if it had a 2:1 motion. 20px of mouse movement would move the slider 10px.

[hihat]

just sincerely hope to help

theme should be performed in gamma starting from icon - splash - main theme and even official site colors being logic and laconic as well!

now we have light green icon follow with green-gray splash and finishing with theme tending black -
or check credits in last theme-you'll see dissonance in gamma or kind of verbosity

i have some education imho-second moderate green-gray theme was closer to target

and rounded transport 'start-end' buttons reminds me washing machine or old fridge(especially in previous light theme))

[AdamWathan]

Originally Posted by mrelwood

Unless all icons look like greenish blur at a glance. My story on the ripple is identical, and it would've been the same with the new icon also. Having to learn once is normal. Having to glimpse and stare every time is bad.

Agreed, the buttons are so detailed that from a quick glance they are not easy to tell apart.

[Evan]

More constructive feedback:

1) I agree about the buttons. They do not have to be in color, unless perhaps they are enabled (like others said). They are not clear to me as they look now. AdamWathan's monochromatic mockup looks great!

Also, the v3 buttons had healthy margins between them, which made them both easier to see and to distinguish their active state. The v4 buttons could use some margin as well (maybe not as much because they're not as rounded).

2) The TCP/MCP tracks look ok in general (minus the boot). I would prefer them darker. That would make the 'selected' state more pronounced as well.

I miss some darker tones in the theme, for contrast, where it matters. Like in the track name backgrounds.

3) The arrangement view looks very good. Good balance between background, grid lines and items. I wouldn't mind if it was a tad darker because that's the area you're looking at the most, and takes a lot of screen space. But it's great as it is already. Love the items, would want them in reverse (selected ones = brighter). And normal items, a little darker than what they are now.

The MIDI editor is too bright, a lot of light grey. Could use a style similar to the main arrangement view.

Thanks!

[Tomm]

Originally Posted by Evan

3) The arrangement view looks very good. Good balance between background, grid lines and items.

Mine is completely unusable, when selected everything is black? Am I missing a setting somewhere? Same goes for the MCP slots:



Also notice the hidden button behind the transport. I think that came up in an earlier build... anyone else getting this? It's when collapsed vertically

[Wilkesin]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

The problem is there's not such thing as a 'stereo track' in REAPER

Understood, but R4 does have a differentiation on the input selector as to whether is is a mono source or a stereo source. Couldnt that signify to the track that the width button needs to be there?

[mrelwood]

Originally Posted by Wilkesin

Understood, but R4 does have a differentiation on the input selector as to whether is is a mono source or a stereo source. Couldnt that signify to the track that the width button needs to be there?

I don't think so, since for example a mono input channel can contain two items panned L and R, or an FX that outputs stereo.

You can create a custom action that adds a track from a template that has the stereo panner.

[jazzdude]

Great work devs. the Theme is really shaping up

This toolbar appears everywhere....With the docker and folder options, why can't we use the "home" position of the main toolbar for soemting else?

The master TCP? Maybe some metering options? Input output metering...etc

[AdamWathan]

I think the TCP label backgrounds could be a bit darker for better contrast, as well as maybe a font change on the titles. Arial bold looks great and is super easy to read as proven by the REACTION theme.

On top is a mockup of some contrast changes and the font change, below is how it currently looks:

[two stars]

Really like the direction the theme is going in, just a few comments (including some super minor niggles), apologies if these have already been brought up elsewhere...

Toolbar Icons: Agreed that they don't need to tell the whole story of what they do, and that their on/off states need less subtle differences - simpler icons with a desaturated off state, as mentioned already, would be preferable.

MCP Record button: i think the boot really sings. Perhaps, though, the curve around it could be softened to mirror the Master Track's menu inset (or whatever it's called, bottom right of the master channel) The point where those two arcs meet looks a little harsh at present.

Pan sliders/knobs: don't mind which is the default as long as there's the option to have either, and for them to eat up less vertical space on the MCP channels.

MCP: would definitely be nice to get a bit more vertical space allocated to the faders and metering. Also, dragging the transport bar upwards to allow more (docked) mixer real-estate currently racks up extra track insert FX and I/O send slots instead of elongating the channel faders, maybe the latter would be more useful - if i'm dragging more space up for the MCP it's usually to get a bit more fader/meter depth.

MCP: the Master channel doesn't line up vertically with the track channels, it's slightly taller, but not by enough for it to not look odd. This channel could maybe also use a pixel of space around the meter numbering?

TCP: the sliders and metering might as well not be there if they're going to be squashed onto the same line as the title, I/O, Mute and Solo buttons. Could we have a layout option where they have their own lines? Or at least for them to assume their own lines when tracks are stretched deep enough to accommodate?

DOCKER: Would it be possible to enable splitting of the vertical side-dockers as well as the horizontal ones? Might be useful for stacking some smaller panels down one edge - a goniometer and snapshot list for example.

I can see myself docking track fx to the docker now that it can be split, i'm wondering if it's possible to build in a catch-all fx docker that'll show fx for the selected track (or whichever track's fx button was last hit, if you prefer) instead of having to manually open the fx for each track and dock them and then have a separate tab for each one.

[strinxx]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

I think the TCP label backgrounds could be a bit darker for better contrast, as well as maybe a font change on the titles. Arial bold looks great and is super easy to read as proven by the REACTION theme.

On top is a mockup of some contrast changes and the font change, below is how it currently looks:

More contrast...?...always a good idea!!!

[d. gauss]

Originally Posted by two stars

b
MCP: would definitely be nice to get a bit more vertical space allocated to the faders and metering. Also, dragging the transport bar upwards to allow more (docked) mixer real-estate currently racks up extra track insert FX and I/O send slots instead of elongating the channel faders, maybe the latter would be more useful - if i'm dragging more space up for the MCP it's usually to get a bit more fader/meter depth.b

yes, yes and yes. stubby faders are driving me nuts.

[pw3]

Originally Posted by strinxx

More contrast...?...always a good idea!!!

+1 - I like Adam's mockup lots.

[Susan G]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

I think the TCP label backgrounds could be a bit darker for better contrast, as well as maybe a font change on the titles. Arial bold looks great and is super easy to read as proven by the REACTION theme.

On top is a mockup of some contrast changes and the font change, below is how it currently looks:

+1 Yes, please, for both the better contrast and font change!

-Susan

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Susan G

+1 Yes, please, for both the better contrast and font change!

-Susan

+2, Yes better contrast and font change.

[Amberience]

I really hate pan knobs. Makes looking at the panning of a mix more difficult than a fader.

[Susan G]

Originally Posted by Amberience

I really hate pan knobs. Makes looking at the panning of a mix more difficult than a fader.

+1 to that, too. The setting is easier for me to see at a glance with a slider, and I've never liked dragging up/down for clock/counter-clock-wise movement. Pan (of all things!) should let us drag left/right, IMO. I understand there are space considerations, though.

-Susan

[hopi]

I perfer faders myself, but see, MN LOVE knobs.... and gosh after all the excitement of people being soooooo thrilled about getting knobs, whachagonna do?

I even like thinner pan sliders myself and have them in what I use... but I only have to make 'me' happy...LOL

[BenK-msx]

Originally Posted by Amberience

I really hate pan knobs. Makes looking at the panning of a mix more difficult than a fader.

i'm planning on having a long toolbar covering up the ****** pan knobs on mcp, providing me with both useful stuff on my semi-permanant mixer layout and shielding my eyes from the uber-pannness which i dislike a bit too much.

[politcat]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

the contrast is much better

but the text can be whatever we like anyway, right? I don't like this (or arial) so I change it to comic sans

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Amberience

I really hate pan knobs. Makes looking at the panning of a mix more difficult than a fader.

I have to agree about faders are easier to see plus on a personal note my wacom pen pad cannot deal with any knobs in Reaper without the devs changing them to allow absolute instead of just relative control

[AdamWathan]

Devs must be pissed reading about this slider love right now after all the begging for knobs, haha... I also prefer sliders for pan, sorry :/

[WyattRice]

I might as well join in on this as well. I've always liked the faders.

[xpander]

I could easily go either way with pan, but let's just say I surely don't hate the knobs. Maybe fader would be more clear visually, but can't beat the way these clever knobs work. Many people have complained about the up/down movement, but that's just one way to adjust the knob. One could as easily grab from anywhere within the active area and drag into any direction, it works sideways as well. I use exactly the same kind of slightly arched motion as I do with faders too.

I have to confess another sin also, I like the toolbar icons. Initially I thought like so many have already said, that while nice looking, they are also too busy for easy/fast recognition. But now after couple of days of getting used to their look, they don't bother me at all. Quite the opposite. But I feel that if the coloring would have to be reduced, then the icons themselves have to be simplified as well.

Overall, great job WT.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

Devs must be pissed reading about this slider love right now after all the begging for knobs, haha... I also prefer sliders for pan, sorry :/

Humm, well heh heh, I also like the sliders better than knobs.

I have to confess another sin also, I like the toolbar icons. Initially I thought like so many have already said, that while nice looking, they are also too busy for easy/fast recognition. But now after couple of days of getting used to their look, they don't bother me at all. Quite the opposite.

This is so true, once you get used to the way an icon looks and what it accomplishes it sort of gets fixed in your mind.

[airon]

I like the knobs a whole lot more for pan. They're just not that easy to read, but I find them much easier to use.

How about making them less sensitive to mouse motion. They're very fast at the moment.

[hihat]

airon check this

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=73186

[strinxx]

Originally Posted by AdamWathan

Devs must be pissed reading about this slider love right now after all the begging for knobs, haha... I also prefer sliders for pan, sorry :/

Me too sorry!
Though I never begged for any knobs....

[Coachz]

For me sliders have two advantages. They are thinner and easier for me to glance at to get a visual of where the track is in left right space so having an option for sliders i think is important.

[Dstruct]

Originally Posted by airon

I like the knobs a whole lot more for pan. They're just not that easy to read, but I find them much easier to use.

How about making them less sensitive to mouse motion. They're very fast at the moment.

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=375 (Hide mouse-pointer on all mouse drag actions)
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1005 (User definable mouse speed setting for normal and fine tune modes)