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Old 12-15-2010, 04:32 PM   #201
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I dipped my toes into Walter this eve (that sounds all wrong..)

and tinkered with some personal tweaks in the mcp.

doing this showed me A:
that yes this is indeed an Alpha as those 'how about moving that a pixel here, a pixel there' tweaks and things like exact symmetry are not A1 spot on - which is not a bad thing, its reassuring.
The fact that a beginner such as i could tweak a few things and try a couple of adjustments, (as well seeing WTs homemade dream gui's) brings much hope for the refinement stage of V4 default by the Theme Team folk.
-

anyway may as well show my tweaked MCP. subtle like.
including thinner pans.. [waves fist]
little less space between buttons and the top of mcp window, I tried out a gap between mute and solo to 'compensate' -
created more room fader and meter - which are quite a bit longer for a given mcp height.
quick bodge of arm button for visibility and touch lower, v.slightly thinner meter. etc.

1st the tweakd, followed by default - look closely now!



bearing in mind WT's recent comments, this is just me goofing about with walter seeing what it can do and is indeed more satisying than a mockup
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:45 PM   #202
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I don't so like the style of V3 default theme. It looks toy, not enough "professional". But it is much more accurate and ergonomic, than V4 default.
It has big meters and convenient buttons in right places. Tracks in TCP and MCP takes much less place and at the same time their design is more functional.

I really liked the style of RADO theme. It looks much more solid than both V3 and V4 default. And it is slill very ergonomic.
If it a few to finish (to change colours a bit, and may be a design of some elements, etc.), it becomes the most successful choice as a standard V4 theme, I think.
No doubt, many users will agree with me.

Now a few words about flexible interface:
It is always necessary to browse menu to change a track layout, it's very unhandy. It would be cool, if on each track there was a button for changing a track layout.

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Old 12-16-2010, 01:48 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Maybe showing you all the alpha theme, letting you use it and watch it develop and expecting that everyone would 'get' that its an alpha was a bit naïve. ...
I agree – watching all these threads about "4", I don't understand the difference between "alpha" and a "beta" anymore. I thought "alpha" means die-hard coders should discuss some basic faulty aspects of a not-really-working software.

I decided not to join the discussions about an alpha version, because my input wouldn't be of any help here. I wanted to step in during the beta stage. But now, everybody is acting like we are already in the beta stage.

My misinterpretation, or (understandable) overreaction of Reaperians, or wrong labelling from Cockos???
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:32 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Maybe showing you all the alpha theme, letting you use it and watch it develop and expecting that everyone would 'get' that its an alpha was a bit naïve.

I still think it was the right thing to do.
Yes, I think so too. But there was little of significance in it except the new track modules (which I like).

Perhaps I was a bit naive to think there would be a significant new look other than all shades of gray. I know your work, WT, and it is usually top notch. I expected that with your involvement a lot would have changed from the start.

Quote:
There's a wealth of professional design experience in the theme team, alongside some seriously talented amateurs. So please stop this 'pro designer' nonsense. With some clients you learn not to show them sketches because they can't 'see' past the rough'n'ready sketch quality to the things you are actually trying to get feedback on, they feedback as if its finished. These clients get a poor service and a big bill because you have to work everything right to the edge of finished just so you can see if they're happy with the basics. A waste of everyone's time.

Please don't be one of them.
I assure you I'm not. And I realize 100% what you're saying above. What you're describing, however, are the amateurs of the "Pro" world. There's a lot of them.

You're not going to get great results having the client come up with ideas for you, starting with an almost blank canvas.

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I may be slightly defensive here, but I would suggest less so than you might think. Please recognise that this entire voluntary exercise and experiment in doing this in public is entirely based on the assumption that feedback will be useful, and of course the expectation that some of it will be negative. We're here for your negative feedback, we're asking for it, we have the strength and willingness to hear it - surely this is proved by the very existence of this thread? All we ask is you think about where we are, what we're doing, why we're doing it and how best that experiment can be moved forwards.
Actually, you seem a lot defensive which surprises me. Just as I was very surprised at your complete dismissal of Liteon's post. The points could have been made more coherently, but they were clearly there.

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Step 1, lesson 101, hello is this microphone on? did you read the first post? ...is that this is an alpha. Try hard to understand that first. The more time consuming it is to pick through this thread and extract the germs of wisdom from you the community, the less likely it is we'll do it successfully. That's just how it is.
Fair enough. But with your obvious design talent, why not LEAD rather than wait for ideas to roll in? Give us something stylish as a starting point to work from other than Reaper-drab. You'll get a lot more ideas and constructive feedback. There are many excellent themes already out there (including your own) that could easily serve as a start point, plucking ideas here and there.

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Old 12-16-2010, 05:31 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by bblue View Post
Yes, I think so too. But there was little of significance in it except the new track modules (which I like).

Perhaps I was a bit naive to think there would be a significant new look other than all shades of gray. I know your work, WT, and it is usually top notch. I expected that with your involvement a lot would have changed from the start.

I assure you I'm not. And I realize 100% what you're saying above. What you're describing, however, are the amateurs of the "Pro" world. There's a lot of them.

You're not going to get great results having the client come up with ideas for you, starting with an almost blank canvas.

Actually, you seem a lot defensive which surprises me. Just as I was very surprised at your complete dismissal of Liteon's post. The points could have been made more coherently, but they were clearly there.

Fair enough. But with your obvious design talent, why not LEAD rather than wait for ideas to roll in? Give us something stylish as a starting point to work from other than Reaper-drab. You'll get a lot more ideas and constructive feedback. There are many excellent themes already out there (including your own) that could easily serve as a start point, plucking ideas here and there.

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Excellent post.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:37 AM   #206
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In the tracks, when armed I get the the leds representing the sound starting half way the size of the table they fit in.

If this is obscure language, see the attachment because it´s it´s easier
to understand. I mean whta´s with the space from the arm track red light
to the start of the sound representation itself?

Is this happening to everyone?
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:42 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonyjazy View Post
In the tracks, when armed I get the the leds representing the sound starting half way the size of the table they fit in.

If this is obscure language, see the attachment because it´s it´s easier
to understand. I mean whta´s with the space from the arm track red light
to the start of the sound representation itself?

Is this happening to everyone?
That's the space for your track label.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:06 AM   #208
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This is a common "nitpick" I have with lots of themes:



thanks wt for your passionate persistence
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Old 12-17-2010, 05:17 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
I'm terribly colourblind (as are some prominent members of this very forum), and as a result of that I tweaked the current theme's rec enable knobs to different colours.
Please please don't go for red/green as rec state colours in the Community theme... Red and green (in similar luminosity values) are not really distinguishable for "us" (: .

- red/blue = no problem, green/blue = difficult, green/yellow = no problem, black/red= no problem
- red/gray = problem, red/brown = problem (same for green/gray and green/brown)

My 2€ct...
Now there's a good reason to provide an alternate theme or layout set.

I wonder what the fully blind would require. They're using screenreaders most of the time, so they'd need pure text descriptions most of the time.

Are any blind users amongst us in this thread ?
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:58 AM   #210
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Sorry, if I mention things that have discussed to death before. I didn't have the time to read the whole thread, so bare with me.

Looking briefly at the new TCP I noticed a few things that are IMO quite annoying, but at least confusing (especially for noobs). Some of them apply to the MPC as well.


1. I don't see a reason, why the elements have to be exchanged when changing to record mode. This is confusing.




2. The Input FX function is only available in record mode, but when changing to record mode, the I/O button shouldn't be touched. Yes, you can still click on the symbol when the track is record armed, But to have different functions at the same location in the TCP depending on mode is also confusing IMO.




3. The read/write modes for the envelopes can't be easily distinguished by the color even for someone who isn't color blind. Yes, theres written text, describing the mode, but one can tell different states better by written text and another better by looking at the color, so why not have both?




4. All pressed buttons indicate an activated function, except the monitor button. if monitor is off, the button is pressed and "lit". This IMO is somewhat inconsistent.






-Data
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:29 PM   #211
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How can GlobalLayout be used?

I would like to define/assign different layouts to function keys.
Switch between Entended Mixer and Big Meters say.

Can this be done? Using GlobalLayout?
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Old 12-30-2010, 02:48 PM   #212
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alpha22 is released with a new revision of the theme, and here are my first impressions:

The pluses:

+ I like the highlighted selected items. In general I like whatever is selected, to be very obviously so.
+ Much better handling of folder tracks (TCP buttons). Less prone to errors (distance between two folder buttons)
+ Better looking scrollbars, now very readable
+ Liking the new toolbar buttons style, monochrome and neutral
+ The 'monitor' button feels right. Not pressed when not active.



The minuses:

- (TCP) Still no pan control on relatively medium track sizes

- A lot of grey gradients. I preferred the previous v4 alpha theme in the sense that it was flatter. The MCP especially looks washed out. The buttons and labels are hard to read, especially when they are colored. Pastel colors over light greys = not a good idea. I definitely liked the previous iteration of the theme in regards to the MCP look. Cleaner and more readable.

- Horizontal meters on the TCP on medium-small track heights. Don't like it. Vertical meters and more room for track label and a pan control please.

- Dislike the new transport a lot (i.e. big round buttons). Loved the previous one. Purely aesthetics.

- Cannot get the mixer to be as small (height) as in previous versions. (?)

- Horizontal fader knobs still bigger than they need be (unchanged)

Last edited by Evan; 12-30-2010 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:16 PM   #213
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I really dislike the Apple glass highlighting on the midi items. It looks tacky. Even Apple is moving away from contoured surfaces -- if we're going to ape lets at least not be oh-so-last-season.

Those vertical meters on narrow tracks are sorely missed. Each revision seems to try and force working with less elements on the screen, effectively eliminating functionality.

Everything looks more like plastic. I know that is the fad, but why is this desirable?

Everyone raved about Imperial -- a simulation of a giant hunk of metal and wood. The new transport looks like my Frontier Tranzport. Its an obvious conclusion that this is going in the wrong direction. I think the space usage of imperial was off for a default theme, but at least it wasn't trying to look like a microwave or HDTV remote control.

Please start designing for functionality. I want to fit as much as I can into the limited pixels my screens offer (2 - 1680 X 1050) while maintaing a somewhat attractive surface. The fact that the fader throw is less than half the height of the mixer panel is pretty silly.

Thanks,
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:38 PM   #214
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Great theme update!

The Good:
- Folder icons position.
- Unindented labels, but equal meters.
- New transport bar.

The Bad:
- It's SOOOOOOOO gray. Blech! Are you planning on including a bunch of color themes to tint it? Because if so, that would be awesome. Otherwise, yeeeeesh. The default REAPER should make new users flock to it.
- TOO MUCH TEXT! There's really no need to use words to describe what an icon can convey. REAPER themes are littered with excellent icons that convey the three-part information of the IO controls. The same goes for the automation button and the FX's 1 1/2 buttons. The "input" button is useless, as it's just the right-click of the record button.
- The phase button should be linked to the pan, not the volume. At a medium width, it gets connected wrongly.
- The indentation is too big.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:49 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
The minuses:

- (TCP) Still no pan control on relatively medium track sizes

- A lot of grey gradients. I preferred the previous v4 alpha theme in the sense that it was flatter. The MCP especially looks washed out. The buttons and labels are hard to read, especially when they are colored. Pastel colors over light greys = not a good idea. I definitely liked the previous iteration of the theme in regards to the MCP look. Cleaner and more readable.

- Horizontal meters on the TCP on medium-small track heights. Don't like it. Vertical meters and more room for track label and a pan control please.

- Dislike the new transport a lot (i.e. big round buttons). Loved the previous one. Purely aesthetics.

- Cannot get the mixer to be as small (height) as in previous versions. (?)

- Horizontal fader knobs still bigger than they need be (unchanged)
You can change all. WALTER is easy....

I have make my own Themes.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:54 PM   #216
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...

...but at least it wasn't trying to look like a microwave or HDTV remote control.

...
I laughed at that one. Good line.
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:08 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stop Continues View Post
- TOO MUCH TEXT! There's really no need to use words to describe what an icon can convey. REAPER themes are littered with excellent icons that convey the three-part information of the IO controls. The same goes for the automation button and the FX's 1 1/2 buttons. The "input" button is useless, as it's just the right-click of the record button.
- The phase button should be linked to the pan, not the volume. At a medium width, it gets connected wrongly.
I completely disagree with you Not that it matters though, just pointed it out because it still amazes me how different we are as human beings.

Cheers
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:21 PM   #218
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It makes sense to offer non-textual layouts for the default theme...
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:32 PM   #219
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It makes sense to offer non-textual layouts for the default theme...
Yep, it makes sense, totally. Maybe the theme team is reserving more layouts for the end of the alpha/beta/rc cycle so they don't have to update them continuously? I've heard they're a pain to do and maintain.
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:52 PM   #220
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The reduction of ambiguity is a stated aim for the default theme. So, stuff is going to get written as text wherever and whenever possible, and if that means taking more space to do it, then that's what's going to happen. If you the user know what buttons do, then cryptic icons will do the job for you, and you'll get the benefit of the space saved. But the new/casual user would definitely suffer, and for the default theme that's a no-no. No discussion.

Other DAWs / software indeed make great use of cryptic icons, but we have theming, so we don't need to compromise the new/casual user's needs for the benefit of experienced users.

If we were doing this theme to be ideal for my needs we wouldn't do it. The same for yours. But we're not. Make sense?

-------------------------

We have a new thread for theme discussion.

-------------------------
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:49 PM   #221
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White Tie
Thank you for the cosmetic work for new default theme! Although I was hoping that this will be yours "Imperial".
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:45 PM   #222
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Hi everyone.

First post in '11.

The Christmas presents I got were a broken central heating (running again) and that my monitor (screen) went poof both on Christmas eve, so I have to settle for a flickering CRT for the next few days which is NO FUN!!

So just a short thanks to you White Tie for considering a few changes. I think the overall look of the default theme is getting better now.

Thanks again.



-Data
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:46 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
The reduction of ambiguity is a stated aim for the default theme. So, stuff is going to get written as text wherever and whenever possible, and if that means taking more space to do it, then that's what's going to happen. If you the user know what buttons do, then cryptic icons will do the job for you, and you'll get the benefit of the space saved. But the new/casual user would definitely suffer, and for the default theme that's a no-no. No discussion.

Other DAWs / software indeed make great use of cryptic icons, but we have theming, so we don't need to compromise the new/casual user's needs for the benefit of experienced users.

If we were doing this theme to be ideal for my needs we wouldn't do it. The same for yours. But we're not. Make sense?

-------------------------

We have a new thread for theme discussion.

-------------------------
yes WT please do carry on... after all, when things settle down, people can have their 'icon' only pngs instead... your teams task is clearly to make a great default theme first ...the others will surely come along in time.
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:51 AM   #224
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Mr. Data.... you gif of the changing position of elements when rec enabled... the logic behind this might become more clear to you if you start with a minimal height track and then rec enable it...and visa versa also. To me it is really cool that Walter\Reaper can actually do this now. That WT guy is one clever ducky.
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Old 01-05-2011, 12:59 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
Mr. Data.... you gif of the changing position of elements when rec enabled... the logic behind this might become more clear to you if you start with a minimal height track and then rec enable it...and visa versa also. To me it is really cool that Walter\Reaper can actually do this now. That WT guy is one clever ducky.
is it possible to keep the elements static until the track is resized too small to show all the options?
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Old 01-05-2011, 03:28 AM   #226
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is it possible to keep the elements static until the track is resized too small to show all the options?
Yup. Simply lock them to left [x x x x 0 x 0 x]

Example
Code:
w<150 [0] [8 130 20 20 0 0 0 0]
to move them with the right edge of the parent: [x x x x 1 x 1 x]

e
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:17 PM   #227
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Mr. Data.... you gif of the changing position of elements when rec enabled... the logic behind this might become more clear to you if you start with a minimal height track and then rec enable it...and visa versa also.
Yeah Hopi, thanks. I did that actually and in this case I find it quite neat as well, but if there is room enough I don't find it that cool. I also always disliked that the record button moved when clicking on record arm in the old themes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
To me it is really cool that Walter\Reaper can actually do this now. That WT guy is one clever ducky.
100% agreed on both!!



-Data
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:22 PM   #228
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Hi everyone. ...
so I have to settle for a flickering CRT for the next few days which is NO FUN!!
...
I had to sit in front of one of these flickering/seizure provoking flicker devices for several hours the other day. It makes water boarding seem humane.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:34 AM   #229
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Default Default Theme Look

Some comments and suggestions:

I and others have made comments about this default theme notion of extreme grayness (read that: dull, dreary, or monotonous), very low contrast buttons with lettering that you have to squint to read, etc.

Over the last few days I have worked with Sony Vegas 9 for some video editing, and Adobe Photoshop Elements 7 building some icons. Both of these programs have a decidedly heavy gray basic UI but are very nice when using them, even for long periods of time.

Why? Because the background of the UI is the only thing that is gray. Everything else, icons, tracks, intermediate text, buttons, you name it, are very sharp and clear with good contrast and color. The gray background is your 'desktop' so to speak, designed to be non-obtrusive. Everything else is quite visible, colorful and sharp, quite the opposite from Reaper. IMO the Reaper default theme could greatly benefit by adopting this approach.

PSE has an adjustable UI brightess control. I don't recall if Vegas does or not. PT has both brightness and saturation global adjustments. These approaches give a great deal of additional flexibility to a given theme. If it's too bright or colorful, turn it down -- or vice versa.

It seems like PT's approach to fine tuning UI brightness and saturation could go a long way on many Reaper themes and make a well contrasted and colored theme just as dull or monotone as some might want it without annoying those who prefer sharpness and contrast.

--Bill
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:59 AM   #230
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Nuendo and Cubase also have this kind of control. They even have a global colour tint, but I don't suppose anyone wants to replace Reapers per-track and per-item colours with that.

Of course themes will become even harder to do then, as they need to work on a range of contrast, saturation and brightness values.

Still, I think it's something to aspire to. It does give people more freedom to get what they want with a minimum amount of fuss. That, and they can screw up the visuals much easier as well.

So on the pro side you have easy control for different situations and tastes, such as sessions in a darker settings(this was a big negative for Protools before version 8), sessions in more lit condisitions such as daytime lighting without displays automatically adjusting brightness, high contrast views for detail work, low contrast views for work that requires focus on the big picture like live recordings.

On the contra side, well it's a lot of work I imagine. And where do you put such controls ? Theme editor page ? Separate window ?

One idea, a colour pallette window for drag'n'drop of colours from that window to items, tracks and so on. Make the global colour control a tab in that window. That kind of colour handling has been requested for ever, and this is the place I would actually look for it, because contrast, brightness and saturation is not theme specific after all, but a preference of the user.

The default theme does look a bit washed out, but it's for a reason. When no element stands out in stark contrast to its surroundings it's less clutter to distract you. The things that do stand out are the items, the track labels, track names and the mute and solo buttons.

The FX button is not so great for me. When FX are on the track, the green text on the button has the same look as that on the automation mode buttons, and they're both hard to read. The FX text is extremly hard to read in fact, as is the 'Read' mode text. Not hot just yet.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:27 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Nuendo and Cubase also have this kind of control. They even have a global colour tint, but I don't suppose anyone wants to replace Reapers per-track and per-item colours with that.

Of course themes will become even harder to do then, as they need to work on a range of contrast, saturation and brightness values.

Still, I think it's something to aspire to. It does give people more freedom to get what they want with a minimum amount of fuss. That, and they can screw up the visuals much easier as well.
In the brightness and saturation settings, there would be a point indicated (notch) of 'normal', or 'flat' in audio terms. Of course that would be the preferred setting when developing a theme.

Quote:
So on the pro side you have easy control for different situations and tastes, such as sessions in a darker settings(this was a big negative for Protools before version 8), sessions in more lit condisitions such as daytime lighting without displays automatically adjusting brightness, high contrast views for detail work, low contrast views for work that requires focus on the big picture like live recordings.

On the contra side, well it's a lot of work I imagine. And where do you put such controls ? Theme editor page ? Separate window ?
Extreme lighting conditions (live work, vs outside work, etc) would have to be delt with by the monitor's contrast and brightness. The brightness and saturation controls in Reaper would in comparison be more like trims, or finer tuning. And of course we make the assumption that the user's monitor is at a reasonable setting, i.e. somewhat calibrated to be within a reasonable range. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the more extreme themes contrast-wise haven't been influenced by an out of calibration monitor!

I think the controls for the Reaper trims would need to be in a pop-up window that could stay up as long as you wanted to make adjustments, and didn't interfere with your work. When comfortable with those settings, just dismiss it. Having the controls inside some other box like theme settings or preferences would interfere with work and make it harder to use.

Quote:
One idea, a colour pallette window for drag'n'drop of colours from that window to items, tracks and so on. Make the global colour control a tab in that window. That kind of colour handling has been requested for ever, and this is the place I would actually look for it, because contrast, brightness and saturation is not theme specific after all, but a preference of the user.
That's a cool idea but I can't imagine it ever happening. It's actually pretty close for most things because of the theme editor in preferences->themes. You can call up items by graphic file name or by function to see which items on your layout highlight, but you can't make a color assignment. That would certainly be a place to put it. I'm not sure quite how that idea could be integrated in with sizing and layout parameters, unless they become two separate capabilities.

Quote:
The default theme does look a bit washed out, but it's for a reason. When no element stands out in stark contrast to its surroundings it's less clutter to distract you. The things that do stand out are the items, the track labels, track names and the mute and solo buttons.
Actually, I think it looks more cluttered now than it should, even with the washed out look. It's because there are so many little shades of gray in boxes, slots, around items. It's far too complex visually just because of those things. Add some contrast and take out all the tiny little variations and it will look simpler and more uniform. (My opinion, of course)

Quote:
The FX button is not so great for me. When FX are on the track, the green text on the button has the same look as that on the automation mode buttons, and they're both hard to read. The FX text is extremly hard to read in fact, as is the 'Read' mode text. Not hot just yet.
Yeah there's that. The minimal shading differences of effects, bypassed effects and offline effects in the MCP are quite bizarre, too. That's a very important area. The lack of detail around the iO buttons (washed out color) and the input FX box is another issue for me. I kinda like the general track layouts as far as where things are, conditions just need to be more obvious at a quick glance or distance view.


There's one other thing I should mention that would probably helping themers a bit/lot. There is one setting in the theme editor called Main Window Text. But that's not what it really is. It is THE setting for things like the Selection boxes in the transport (those that people are always complaining about how small they are), and they include text in Big Clock, the little line at the bottom of the tracks in arrange view on the left that gives your various status settings, the x-in-a-box for docked toolbars, all the text and graphing lines in the track routing and track qrouping window, and a few other places.

This grouping should be broken up so at the very least, transport Selection boxes and big clock have font descriptions/colors apart from all the rest of that stuff. I can't imagine why they are lumped together like that, except for historical reasons.

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Old 01-14-2011, 09:36 AM   #232
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This might sound silly but I'm serious:

Is the logo/icon suppose to look like a stethoscope?



Or are my eyes inverting the "3D" part of it and I'm really confused as to it's actual shape? Like, is it a silver moon? It hurts my brain and I'm scared...
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:43 AM   #233
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Please move on to NEXT THREAD
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