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Old 12-07-2019, 09:02 AM   #1
Eisenspalter
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Default Reaper 6. A big disappointment!

This update is a big disappointment. This is not a major update! There is nothing new. No added values for the user. For what do I need a GUI in the channels if the internal components (ReaEQ) are not evolving. No filter slopes, no dynamic EQ bands. They are outdated. If Cockos do not want to evolve ReaEQ, why not publish it as Open Source? The community can evolve it. Looking back over the past two years, it is noticeable that Reaper is evolving more and more slowly. Simple innovations, such as Automation Items, were still full of errors even 1 year after publication. In contrast, the competitors deliver one great feature after another the last 2 years. So what's up with Cockos? Do they have stuff problems? Did important developers leave the company? Why this update? Do they need money? Are they broke? I am anxious.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:37 AM   #2
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Maybe it's just a matter of expectations.

I spent more than two decades using Cakewalk/SONAR, which had an annual new version release. I had to pay a fair bit of money for the new version (over twice what Reaper costs), and I expected a significant amount of improvement. Sometimes what I got was not much more than a bunch of new loops and crippled versions of plug-ins, sometimes it was a good bit more.

I just installed 5.999 a week or two ago. I didn't expect 6.0 to be a world changer. I started with 5.0, so I don't have to pay again until 7.0 arrives, but even if 6.0 had cost me $60, I wouldn't say it was a bad deal. Any software that updates as often as Reaper can't be expected to have revolutionary changes with a new version number.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:36 AM   #3
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1. Reaper doesn't save big features for big point upgrades. Big features happen when they're ready.

2. Reaper licenses are good for 2 full versions, cost $60, and will cover MANY big feature additions in that year's and year's-long time-span. Now go back and look at all the features added between 4.0 and 5.99 and when those big feature additions got added.

3. Have the developers changed? Are they going broke? If this post isn't trolling and those are serious questions then you may want to look into who developed and still develops Reaper. Justin Frankel is behind it, isn't doing this to get rich (he's been there, done that), and he codes with Schwa with themes handled by White Tie. It's been like that for a while and nothing's changed there as far as I know.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:51 AM   #4
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Maybe it's just a matter of expectations.

I spent more than two decades using Cakewalk/SONAR, which had an annual new version release. I had to pay a fair bit of money for the new version
And now it's free
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:01 AM   #5
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Haven't noticed other vendors adding so many features during updates. I primarily watch Studio One and Cubase changelogs and they are very humble comparing to Reapers. Amount of Reaper additions through two major versions you get for $60 is tremendous.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:12 AM   #6
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I have to admit there was a twinge of disappointment when I saw the new feature list for the release of 6 (though I do love new midi CC editing) but when you think of all the FREE major 5.xx updates we've had then there's certainly nothing to be disappointed about...Subprojects, Notation Editor, Spectral editing! and a huge amount more. It 6 doesn't float your boat, then I'm sure there'll be an update coming along soon that does.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:28 AM   #7
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There are quite fancy updates in v6 of Reaper. And actually some can be considered major (especially UIwise). The routing GUI for example., the Theme adjuster, MIDI visuals, defaults.

And there we are with new update v.6.01, so a round number version is meaningless, because Reaper is all about evolutionary (day after day) updates.

Let's hope it does not stop.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:33 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Eisenspalter View Post
Looking back over the past two years, it is noticeable that Reaper is evolving more and more slowly.
Righty then. Check out the chagelog over here, and focus on the last two years: https://www.reaper.fm/whatsnew.txt - the section making up the last two years is literally too long to paste into a forum message (it goes well over the maximum post length).

See v5.97 for example, for one single example. Yowza. Not just ARA support, but the video additions as well. Point being, if all the big enhancements of even the "minor" 5.9x numbered releases were held back and used in the v6 pool, you would be seeing a more traditional presentation of a major version upgrade. Alas, stuff like this was pushed out as free updates for everyone on a license that is good until 5.99. How dare they
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:46 AM   #9
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I wasn't expecting anything, so I was pleasantly surprised when I saw Kenny's video on the new version.

A feature like - add a GUI in the channel - I think was a smart decision, simply because that is the type of stuff that a new user might want to see in a DAW, especially when they are thinking about what to buy - so from a business perspective it makes a lot of sense and the same can be said of the new and customizable theme idea.

Basically, I think that jumping from one whole number version to another is probably the time to lure the new users in and thus the changes will reflect this, meaning they are more in the visual realm etc. and adding new "unseeable" features will take the back seat then. (this of course can be upsetting for many long time users who may have hoped for some resolve in the take system or some other long awaited feature etc.)

But Reaper is being updated constantly, so it is not like with many other programs that are rarely updated and even when they are, all you might get is a shiny GUI FOR YOUR MONEY and not much more - in this regard Reaper is in a class of its own with its free updates.

I agree that if they would update Reaeq and add for example 24db (and more) high and low pass filters in to it, especially now that you can have its gui in the channel, it would be a breeze to set all the high pass filters for your (metal) mix in a few seconds and it would definitely be a HUGE improvement over what we now have. Maybe this can happen one day. Cheers.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:46 AM   #10
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Some people will never be happy with anything. I moved to Reaper two years ago, and I've never been more creative in my life. Many thanks to all the people behind the scenes!
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:53 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Eisenspalter View Post
This update is a big disappointment. This is not a major update!
I think you don't understand how Reaper development works. Reaper is not specifically updated to major version numbers when there are necessarily "major" features like other DAWs, but incrementally over time. If you want to see the real difference between major version numbers and Reaper, then look at 5.0 compared to 6.0. Not 5.99 and 6.0. In fact, you might even look at 4.0 vs 6.0 because when you buy a Reaper license, you get TWO generations of Reaper... so for $60 or $225 (depending on the license) you get years and years of incremental updates. But just the difference between 5.0 and 6.0 is vast and worth every penny.

The Reaper developers could have easily chosen any point to call Reaper 6.0, when they added milestone features, but sometimes they are very unconventional and counter-culture (and counter-intuitive) by introducing major features hidden in a .01 update. It's kind of clever and crazy sometimes. But that's how they do it. I find it refreshing and fascinating compared to the conventional product cycle.

So to compare to other developers, you need to really look at 5.0 vs. 6.0 (or 4.0 vs. 6.0), not 5.99 and 6.0.

My favorite features have ALL been introduced as stealth updates in the past, on unexpected intervals. And sometimes I didn't find out about those new amazing features until months later. For example, my favorite power feature -- SUBPROJECTS -- was introduced in Reaper 5.11. It's utterly amazing, and I would have paid an upgrade fee just for that if I knew about it when it came out. Notation added in 5.20, and so on and on. ARA support showed up in 5.97 of all things! That could have easily been a headline feature for 6.0, but the developers decided to do their usual quirky thing and stick it in a .97!

Anyway, Reaper is not a normal product with a "normal" business model if you haven't figured that out by now. I use other DAWs as needed like many of us here, but Reaper is always a fantastic tool on my machine, and I'm thrilled that they continue this very unconventional release practice.

Bravo to the Reaper team and community who helped in the test cycle.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:59 AM   #12
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@fetidus: Good explanation!
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:01 PM   #13
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people get used to pay a lot for a DAW, get used to have major releases that are announced like the first iPhone on social networks! get used to complain about the new features, and soon it comes out complain about what could have be done.

please..make sure Reaper is really for you.
Hands down for cockos team, made of US and TWO great developers..

Another thing i should mention is, version 6 is just a normal update to 5.99 has usual..

There is HUGE list of improvements...and still people just talks about the new Theme system.

To finish

Think like this


What reaper does that other DAWS dont do? this is the main point.
Dont be anxious , is not good for your health
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rst View Post
Haven't noticed other vendors adding so many features during updates. I primarily watch Studio One and Cubase changelogs and they are very humble comparing to Reapers. Amount of Reaper additions through two major versions you get for $60 is tremendous.
And all the 3000 lua scripts and js plugins flying around. saike, kawa...
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:43 PM   #15
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"I basically don't know how Reaper's development works"
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:54 PM   #16
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Many "experts" in this thread.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:19 PM   #17
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I do share the sentiment of the OP that major version numbering is kinda nonsense with the non-stop development that happens with Reaper. I don't have a solution other than suggesting moving to a different numbering system with say YY.MM.DD. Reaper 19.12.07, for example. This way, any expectations for big innovations to coincide with major release numbers are non-existent. It reminds me of Ubuntu release numbers or Cakewalk which simply lists monthly updates...

There are plenty of free or low-cost DAW options in 2019 for everyone (rejoice!). Reaper, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Ardour, Mixbus, Tracktion are some of the best. I've used many DAWs and aside from my classical workflow concerns, any of these would fit the bill admirably. Most recently I've installed Cakewalk as I was a long-time Sonar Platinum user and this has become the platform where I personally have become most productive. For mastering I'm on Pyramix 12 Native. However, Reaper is great and is highly capable in many areas. I've mostly used it as a stable bit-bucket but I've also completed several MIDI sequencing projects and some basic mastering workflows with no real concerns. It's just that CbB made me feel all warm inside having used various iterations since 2003.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:23 PM   #18
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If you think of the major version numbers as simply a way to keep track of the licenses and you won't be disappointed. Go make some hit songs
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
If you think of the major version numbers as simply a way to keep track of the licenses and you won't be disappointed. Go make some hit songs
Agreed. However my suggestion for a different numbering system also works if, for example, you say a license is good for 4 years (or whatever the average turns out to be between the major version releases).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
"I basically don't know how Reaper's development works"
This isn't helpful or respectful.
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Old 12-07-2019, 02:01 PM   #20
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Agreed. However my suggestion for a different numbering system also works if, for example, you say a license is good for 4 years (or whatever the average turns out to be between the major version releases).



This isn't helpful or respectful.
Not respectful? I have no idea how their development works either but I just use the product and Keep On Truckin. To say I have no idea how their development works though is not disrespectful. I've even said in the past that the development seems to be based on the shiny object hey squirrel theory.
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Old 12-07-2019, 02:30 PM   #21
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I was referring to another poster's response if you look closely. A critique of an idea or product does not warrant a belittling of the OP.
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Old 12-07-2019, 02:37 PM   #22
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I've even said in the past that the development seems to be based on the shiny object hey squirrel theory.
Interesting take. I think of their development process as an ongoing never-ending expression of coding art to create art in a giant brilliant feedback loop of organized coder-artist-artist-coder inspired mayhem. Either that or it's Justin's attempt at fulfilling a secret political agenda for world domination. I have no idea. In any case, the dev's process is totally unique and doesn't play by any "normal" business rules. And for that, I'm thankful and I hope they keep doing it. It's working.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:07 PM   #23
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There’s not really enough there to make me pay again. I’m frankly a bit worried about the new theme. Never got used to 5 because not only did the buttons move but they also changed so now I don’t know where to look or WTF I’m looking for! Somebody I was watching (Reaper Blog?) showed the Theme menu real quick, and it didn’t include 4, so I’d be screwed right out of the gate.

Some of the new stuff sounds nice, but if switching means interrupting my actual work for a training session, I’m not sure I’m up for that just now. I’m not really trying to complain, but I may not renew my liscence until they include something I want.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I may not renew my liscence until they include something I want.
Sounds logical! No rush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
...if switching means interrupting my actual work for a training session, I’m not sure I’m up for that just now...
YMMV, but so far for me, it has not disrupted anything I'm working on, haven't had any hiccups so far. Cross fingers.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:24 PM   #25
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but I may not renew my liscence until they include something I want.
Very sensible. DAWs are so powerful now there must be a lot of people who have what they want/need with what is already available. My license goes to the end of v6, that is probably 3 years away and I can imagine that will be about it for me outside of external compatibility issues with the OS/hardware that are outside the control of DAW developers anyway
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot View Post
1. Reaper doesn't save big features for big point upgrades. Big features happen when they're ready.

2. Reaper licenses are good for 2 full versions, cost $60, and will cover MANY big feature additions in that year's and year's-long time-span. Now go back and look at all the features added between 4.0 and 5.99 and when those big feature additions got added.

3. Have the developers changed? Are they going broke? If this post isn't trolling and those are serious questions then you may want to look into who developed and still develops Reaper. Justin Frankel is behind it, isn't doing this to get rich (he's been there, done that), and he codes with Schwa with themes handled by White Tie. It's been like that for a while and nothing's changed there as far as I know.

This sums it up perfectly. The development team is very small, and they are not in it for the money.

If you look at value for money, Reaper is very hard to beat, especially given its quality and stability and the terrific user community.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:59 PM   #27
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Reaper 6 I have to agree that it's
pre-release hype sounded great but now so very disappointed.
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fetidus View Post
I think you don't understand how Reaper development works. Reaper is not specifically updated to major version numbers when there are necessarily "major" features like other DAWs, but incrementally over time. If you want to see the real difference between major version numbers and Reaper, then look at 5.0 compared to 6.0. Not 5.99 and 6.0. In fact, you might even look at 4.0 vs 6.0 because when you buy a Reaper license, you get TWO generations of Reaper... so for $60 or $225 (depending on the license) you get years and years of incremental updates. But just the difference between 5.0 and 6.0 is vast and worth every penny.

The Reaper developers could have easily chosen any point to call Reaper 6.0, when they added milestone features, but sometimes they are very unconventional and counter-culture (and counter-intuitive) by introducing major features hidden in a .01 update. It's kind of clever and crazy sometimes. But that's how they do it. I find it refreshing and fascinating compared to the conventional product cycle.

So to compare to other developers, you need to really look at 5.0 vs. 6.0 (or 4.0 vs. 6.0), not 5.99 and 6.0.

My favorite features have ALL been introduced as stealth updates in the past, on unexpected intervals. And sometimes I didn't find out about those new amazing features until months later. For example, my favorite power feature -- SUBPROJECTS -- was introduced in Reaper 5.11. It's utterly amazing, and I would have paid an upgrade fee just for that if I knew about it when it came out. Notation added in 5.20, and so on and on. ARA support showed up in 5.97 of all things! That could have easily been a headline feature for 6.0, but the developers decided to do their usual quirky thing and stick it in a .97!

Anyway, Reaper is not a normal product with a "normal" business model if you haven't figured that out by now. I use other DAWs as needed like many of us here, but Reaper is always a fantastic tool on my machine, and I'm thrilled that they continue this very unconventional release practice.

Bravo to the Reaper team and community who helped in the test cycle.
Your post should be a sticky on this forum! Great job explaining this!!
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenspalter View Post
If Cockos do not want to evolve ReaEQ, why not publish it as Open Source?
ReEQ comes at no cost, It's published completely for free as part of the "ReaPlug" distribution, So it's just a courtesy item bundled with the Reaper distribution. If you don't like add-ons that come with the Reaper v6 distribution, why not just use those 3rd party ones that you might like better (free - even open source - or payed for) ? Supposedly there is no need for yet another open source EQ plugin.

And nobody at Cockos ever suggested that there would be any major change from v5.99 to v6.0.

-Michael

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Old 12-08-2019, 04:13 AM   #30
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ReEQ comes at no cost, It's published completely for free as part of the "ReaPlug" distribution, So it's just a courtesy item bundled with the Reaper distribution. If you don't like add-ons that come with the Reaper v6 distribution, why not just use those 3rd party ones that you might like better (free - even open source - or payed for) ? Supposedly there is no need for yet another open source EQ plugin.
You're wrong. The "free" ReaEQ is not the same ReaEQ as the one that comes with REAPER.
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:34 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by fetidus View Post
I think you don't understand how Reaper development works. Reaper is not specifically updated to major version numbers when there are necessarily "major" features like other DAWs, but incrementally over time.
I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, however:

Have you built your understanding on how REAPER development works just by following the statistics in the "Whats's New" text, or do you have actual behind the scenes knowledge about the REAPER development?
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:36 AM   #32
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"Do they have stuff problems?"

Better sort them quick: Xmas is coming>
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:39 AM   #33
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Default Reaper V4 Theme

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
... Somebody I was watching (Reaper Blog?) showed the Theme menu real quick, and it didn’t include 4, so I’d be screwed right out of the gate ...
I installed Reaper 6 over my previous installation and all my previous themes (including V4) were maintained.

By the way, you can also copy the V4 theme from the ColorThemes folder now and later on copy it back in should the need arise.

Click [Options] > [Show REAPER resource path] in explorer/finder...] to get to the REAPER resource folder, then change to the the ColorThemes folder.
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:47 AM   #34
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You're wrong. The "free" ReaEQ is not the same ReaEQ as the one that comes with REAPER.
Supposedly the ReaPlugs distribution file needs to be updated. Unfortunately they don't do version numbers to the single plugins to better keep track ...)
-Michael
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:52 AM   #35
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Reaper 6 I have to agree that it's
pre-release hype sounded great but now so very disappointed.
Sorry, but what pre-release hype would that be then? What were you expecting, if you are so disappointed? The Reaper Paperclip? Here, Reaper runs smoother, more solidly, there's no v6 learning curve (unless I want to), the MIDI editor is making leaps in the right direction and the whole thing's even more customizable than it was before (bigtime). I couldn't wait to pay for the upgrade.
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Old 12-08-2019, 06:41 AM   #36
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Reaper 6 I have to agree that it's
pre-release hype sounded great but now so very disappointed.

If you heard or read pre-release hype, it wasn't from Cockos.
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:07 AM   #37
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Many "experts" in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valle View Post
I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, however:
I'm not sure you can help it. (That's supposed to be joke in case you took offense)

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Originally Posted by Valle View Post
Have you built your understanding on how REAPER development works just by following the statistics in the "Whats's New" text, or do you have actual behind the scenes knowledge about the REAPER development?
I'm just a regular user like you. I have no knowledge of Reaper other than what anyone else can get putting 1 and 1 together observing Reaper and this community for years, plus my views on public info about Justin and his approach over his long and unusual career. I'm guessing you'd draw similar conclusions, but maybe not. Just looking at the changelog is a pretty good clue by itself of course. But if you go back to his Winamp days, transition out of AOL and early Reaper days there were some pretty interesting articles and interviews that gave some cool insight into how he works IMO. And objectively speaking (leaving me out of it) it's pretty clear he's marching to the beat of a different drummer and doesn't play the typical corporate game. He appears to be a fundamentally unconventional person from the info I've read about him over the years, and that's had direct impact on the philosophical and business approach to Reaper. But as with everything, YMMV, and everything I say here is purely personal opinion.

As to your comment about "experts" (in quotes) here and in this forum in general, I've found this forum to be one of the most helpful forums of any DAW I've ever used, maybe the best overall, and while there are plenty of people with snarky attitudes and the normal garbage and BS that happens anywhere, it's a surprisingly well grounded forum with *highly* knowledgeable folks, yes, experts (without quotes) even on a technical level who are willing to generously share their time. I'm not an expert on Reaper for sure, but every once in a while when someone sarcastically brings up "experts" in quotes like that it makes me want point out how lucky we are here in this forum that we actually DO have a technically engaged and vibrant community with real experts (without quotes) and that's one of the things that makes Reaper very special IMO. Each of us obviously can (and should IMO) choose to filter out or ignore some people like with anything else in life.

Cheers!
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:20 AM   #38
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Still no Dinky Doo as an easter egg.. so disappointed...

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Old 12-08-2019, 11:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by fetidus View Post
I'm just a regular user like you.
Ah, OK!
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Old 12-08-2019, 11:32 AM   #40
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I installed Reaper 6 over my previous installation and all my previous themes (including V4) were maintained.

By the way, you can also copy the V4 theme from the ColorThemes folder now and later on copy it back in should the need arise.

Click [Options] > [Show REAPER resource path] in explorer/finder...] to get to the REAPER resource folder, then change to the the ColorThemes folder.
Thanks. I knew there had to be ways to do it, but not really sure how, and not exactly patient enough to bother.

I certainly don’t begrudge the liscence fee. I will pay when I choose to upgrade and that’s not the thing that’s stopping me. I’ve never been one to upgrade every time anyway, and I don’t see a good reason for me to jump right now. Especially not if it’s going to disrupt my entire environment. I think the point above about making cosmetic changes on the full version jumps makes good sense, but I’m not a new user, didn’t ask for it, and don’t want it.

I DO want colored Track Control knobs and track channel names and ReaExpand and a bunch of other stuff, but this isn’t a feature request thread.
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