MIDI CC Editing

[DarkStar]

Originally Posted by fandango

DarkStar: If you could make "allow the line to tool to DRAW controller values" (or part of it) into a hyperlink here: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=838

^^^ done.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile here's a pic of the features in XT2, for some ideas:

-- the CC80 lane is using CC events sent to the VSTi
-- the CC81 lane is an envelope, converted to CC events and sent to the VSTi
-- the Glide Time lane is an envelope, for a VSTi parameter
-- the lowest two lanes show the CC events actually sent to the VSTi.

[bradleyfilms]

Just been thinking about a cc selection method. Currently right-click drag draws a selection marquee everywhere except the cc lanes. Also currently, right-click drag, alt+left-click and alt+right-click all delete cc events. One of these is redundant and I suggest it's alt+right-click. I suggest this is used to draw a selection marquee. But wait, there's more. For the sake of conformity with the rest of Reaper, I suggest a tick box in the ME options that says "right-click draws cc marquee, alt toggles". This will keep those used to right-click deleting happy.
Now with a selection method, moving copying and pasting should be a breeze.
I'd love to see envelopes in the cc lanes.
Anyone up for right-click lasso instead of marquee?
Steve

[gofer]

Time for a new bump on this.

Can I select a CC event for Xmas?

[Sound asleep]

I like the idea of CC envelopes just thought i'd add a +1 for that one.

[Iqbahl]

Pretty please! ++1

T

[Simple Simon]

I just want to add my small voice to this concern of Lawrence's. While I think it's great that folks like DarkStar make very cool and useful midi plugins, they tend to fulfil different needs to actual data editing tools. Ideally, both are needed.

Originally Posted by Lawrence

My fear - well not fear since it's not that critical to me personally - maybe concern is a better word... ... is that people get so caught up with this "midi plugins can do anything in Reaper" idea that they forget that plugins cannot go backwards and edit data. They can only affect the stream.

Plugins are not a replacement for back-end data editing functions.

[acebanner]

Hi I started reading all these great post on cc editing and thought I'd chime in. I have attached a picture of my favorite music sequencer. Music 2000 aka Music generator. It is a picture of the piano roll view and there is a dedicated colum on the right hand side of the editor that lets you change cc style events for each individual note. This is different that typical cc lane editing as this version is more surgical for each note. So when you are selecting notes you will see the cc section change its values accordingly. I have never liked the way you have to draw in a section just for the attack envelope and then another for the release and that is for any big name midi sequencer. You know what I mean? I put my main points in yellow and red text. The green and purple are also important matters but somewhat off topic. Please ask questions as its late and my brain is going out so I might not be explaining this the best I can.

UGhh I am having troulbe geting the picture to a decent size for upload!! I will repost tomorrrow. sorry

regards

[Klemperer]

Well might gofer have all his midi wishes fulfilled by the end of the year, as it seemed to have gone under the radar of the christmas bunny (might have mixed together something here, well, religion, you know...kind of er, anyway,

bump

Actually since this thread is many moons old I, like a lot of Reaper users, should definitely bump this. Just that the devs know it is really, really important...(all those lots of grey hair coming from discussions with Cubase and Logic and Sonar users over at other forums )

[Subz]

was looking for a midi CC line tool & a forum search brought me here,

so i guess there is no line tool/mod key to draw straight lines of CC data?

or CC envelopes or select copy & paste of CC data as of yet?

the midi editor has come a long way since my last test of reaper 2! i guess they cant do everything all at once

are there open FR's i can vote on for this?

or even better have i missed something & some of this is possible in the reaper midi editor?

XT2's non tool midi tools would be hard to turn my back on! but the line tool is the main one!

Subz

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Subz

so i guess there is no line tool/mod key to draw straight lines of CC data?

Press Shift and then start drawing a line, you'll get a linear increase/decrease in CC lanes.

Originally Posted by Subz

or CC envelopes or select copy & paste of CC data as of yet?

Yup, not yet. Anxiously awaited for.

Originally Posted by Subz

are there open FR's i can vote on for this?

Yeah:

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=978
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=124

and also:

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=154
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=28
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1330
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1336

[Subz]

Thanks

of to vote then play with my shift key

Subz

[fandango]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Press Shift and then start drawing a line, you'll get a linear increase/decrease in CC lanes.

But this doesn't 'Draw' though? (i.e., just modifies existing drawn data, which has to be added in freehand first?) (unless I've missed something in a new update)

I'm still at the point of wanting to sell Cubase, but every time I come back to Reaper I'm reminded how much I love Cubase in this regard. Been waiting a long time for improvements and I'm beginning to think the "Elevated FR" forum is actually "FR Cemetery".

I know... I know... best things come to those that wait. (unless you're on death row, I guess)

[the brok]

exactly, it doesn`t draw the data, i`ve been requesting this since ages, no luck ... i really don`t understand that the midi section doesn`t get much love in the very basic things.

[fandango]

Because we're old, brok. We remember the good old days. The golden age of CC editing...

At this stage, I think the best one can hope for is some sort of envelope-based system as shown in your other topic (FL automation clip), but this has it's own problems with regard to accurate MIDI file import and export. (unless MIDI file CC data is imported into an envelope where each node is a "Jump" node, I guess) It would also handle the rubber-band view nicely as well (so you can see what CC is in place several measures afterwards).

[the brok]

Originally Posted by fandango

Because we're old, brok. We remember the good old days. The golden age of CC editing...

ahhh, don`t remind me, i just got 40 ... and suddenly less hair!? :/

Originally Posted by fandango

At this stage, I think the best one can hope for is some sort of envelope-based system as shown in your other topic (FL automation clip), but this has it's own problems with regard to accurate MIDI file import and export. (unless MIDI file CC data is imported into an envelope where each node is a "Jump" node, I guess) It would also handle the rubber-band view nicely as well (so you can see what CC is in place several measures afterwards).

well, you`re right with the import thing, though that could be done the "old" bargraph way, i wouldn`t drop that, it has its uses, like i said in my first post ... but that rubberband way is prefered when it comes to drawing automation ... you have to see thatone in studio one, they actually don`t use midi data (if the cc is sent to avst/i), and it`s accurate as hell ... the new, upcoming version (1.1) allows for manually adjusting the curves, too ... cc-editing heaven ...

[CNW]

+1
- Mass repositioning non-note midi events: Select a bunch of midi notes and move them, then their temporally related midi events should move with them too.

Everything else I can live with status quo.

[gofer]

Originally Posted by CNW

+1
- Mass repositioning non-note midi events: Select a bunch of midi notes and move them, then their temporally related midi events should move with them too.

Everything else I can live with status quo.

That one is basically there. 'Move CC events with notes' does it. It still doesn't copy CC events when copying notes, though. And it doesn't work for ctrl+c/ctrl+x maneuvers.

Anyone else think 'move cc with notes' should be obeyed when quantizing?


Another detail I am dearly missing is copy/paste events between piano roll and event list.

[EricM]

Originally Posted by gofer

Anyone else think 'move cc with notes' should be obeyed when quantizing?

+1 as an option.

[strunkdts]

Originally Posted by EricM

+1 as an option.

..............yep.

[Jeffos]

Originally Posted by gofer

Anyone else think 'move cc with notes' should be obeyed when quantizing?

as discussed elsewhere -if I was using quantize- yes I'd expect that: following that discussion, I did a quantize test on real e-drum hardware outputing CC4 for the hithat openess level: man!! awfull!
Tho, later, I re-thought to that.. complicated stuff, I think that what quantizers would need is rather something like 'move cc with *some* notes', no? e-drum example: move CC4 events only with hithat eddge & bow notes

sidenote: gofer (and others), I can't wait to see you in the pre-release forum when we'll see:

+ CC events: select/copy/paste and stuff

[gofer]

sidenote: gofer (and others), I can't wait to see you in the pre-release forum when we'll see:

+ CC events: select/copy/paste and stuff

I hope "stuff" includes 'move'.

That'll be like a wet dream come true. Though, with the pre release they just scraped one of my other pet peeves off the list. I feel quite pleased right now.

About CC and quantize, of course it must be an option in the quantize dialog. In your (jeffos) case, you would quantize in two runs, one with the selected hihat notes and 'move cc' enabled and another one with the rest of the kit and this option disabled.
Where it maybe gets complicated is when notes from different pitches of a melodic or harmonic instrument overlap.

[Jeffos]

ha ha! ok..

Originally Posted by Jeffos

(see you in the noob forum if I have silly Q's about quantize!!!)

.. promise, I'll indeed do that next time I have a question about quantize

[Dstruct]

Can someone explain NRPN editing to a stupid?


I have the Ohm Force OhmBoyz plugin and would like to control some parameters via NRPN.


For example it says NRPN number 55 = Delay Line 1 Level.


So WHAT to draw WHERE in the MIDI editor to adjust that knob?


In the manual it says

About Control Change (CC) Messages

Although you can assign most of the CC numbers to plug-in parameters, there are things to consider:

- You cannot use certain CC numbers like Data Entry (6 and 38), Data Button Increment (96), Data Button Decrement (97), nor you can use RPN and NRPN Parameters 98, 99, 100 and 101, because they are used for RPN and NRPN coding.

- It is possible, but not advisable, to use the fine tuned section at the lower end of the controller range (32 to 63). This will work, but if plug-in parameters are assigned to coarse parts of the low controller range (0 to 31), the plug-in will also output the fine commands, resulting in possible interference. For example, if you assigned Knob A to CC 20 and Knob B to CC 52 (= 20 + 32), twisting Knob B would output CC 52 messages, whereas twisting Knob A would output both CC 20 and 52! Trying to record automation in this manner could result in a host of unnecessary complications.

I simply don't get it

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by gofer

Anyone else think 'move cc with notes' should be obeyed when quantizing?

Yes. ...............

[Susan G]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Yes. ...............

Me, too.

-Susan

[captain caveman]

And it should catch the CCs inbetween notes where a contiguous selection is made and should stretch CCs when groups of notes are timestretched.

[Dstruct]

Originally Posted by Dstruct

Can someone explain NRPN editing to a stupid?


I have the Ohm Force OhmBoyz plugin and would like to control some parameters via NRPN.


For example it says NRPN number 55 = Delay Line 1 Level.


So WHAT to draw WHERE in the MIDI editor to adjust that knob?


In the manual it says

I simply don't get it

Nobody?

[EvilDragon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRPN



You need to use 3 or 4 CCs to set one NRPN parameter and its associated value. As described above.

[Dstruct]

I still don't get it. Can't someone explain it in detail?



Example: NPRN 55 -> What values do I have to draw on CC 99 and CC 98 to choose/set NPRN 55?

[lowellben]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Assuming there are no standard CC envelopes, has anyone FR'ed that?

Side note:

What program are you using that lets you create those arrows and text boxes?
I like that...

Mine never look like yours What's your secret?

[EvilDragon]

I guess he's using Camtasia.

[Susan G]

Hi Ben-

HyperSnap also works nicely for that sort of thing.

-Susan

[lowellben]

Thanks

[cyberturbo]

Just checking back. Any of this implemented yet? Using 3.66 and drawing CC is still pain to make it smooth.

[hantymansy]

my suggestion is to forget about that kind of stuff. thaere are a lot of nice things about GUI and MIDI editor improvements suggested 2-4 years ago but seems that devs don't give a fuck to that. reaper is so reaper

[AgiReaper]

Originally Posted by hantymansy

my suggestion is to forget about that kind of stuff. thaere are a lot of nice things about GUI and MIDI editor improvements suggested 2-4 years ago but seems that devs don't give a fuck to that. reaper is so reaper

Really???
I can't believe it :-(

[gofer]

I'm quite comfortable with the changes that have been made since this thread was created. All those points I was complaining about on the first two pages are solved and work quite nice. I'm a happy camper. The main basic editing has a good foundation. Of course I have always some niggles left.

One of my concerns the time when this thread was born was that people shouted for advanced stuff like groove quantize and curve editing of CC data while the basics had holes like a swiss cheese. This is no problem anymore, Cockos can conveniently go ahead for the bigger aims in terms of MIDI now. YAY

So I find Reaper's v3.x cycle made a huge leap forward. Let's see what the next year brings .

Still ways to go, but it is constantly moving into the right direction, methinks.

[AgiReaper]

Originally Posted by gofer

I'm quite comfortable with the changes that have been made since this thread was created. All those points I was complaining about on the first two pages are solved and work quite nice. I'm a happy camper. The main basic editing has a good foundation. Of course I have always some niggles left.

One of my concerns the time when this thread was born was that people shouted for advanced stuff like groove quantize and curve editing of CC data while the basics had holes like a swiss cheese. This is no problem anymore, Cockos can conveniently go ahead for the bigger aims in terms of MIDI now. YAY

So I find Reaper's v3.x cycle made a huge leap forward. Let's see what the next year brings .

Still ways to go, but it is constantly moving into the right direction, methinks.

Sorry,can you post me the links with the improvements?
How you manage midi cc drawing actually?



ps:I'm still using Reaper 3,do you suggest me moving to 4 even if it's alpha?...

many many thanx!

[gofer]

Originally Posted by AgiReaper

Sorry,can you post me the links with the improvements?

What for? I'd really like to forget about how CC editing was until version 3. something . Why should I go and search for what has changed in the past when it's better to look at what is currently there. The most significant change is obviously that we can actually marquee select them and edit all selected CC as a group.

Originally Posted by AgiReaper

How you manage midi cc drawing actually?

Don't understand the question. There is not much sophisticated drawing stuff there. I just paint them in where needed (often with a snap to 64th to not flood the MIDI stream) and edit them to taste. Sometimes editing still feels not right and I have to re-edit to get what I'm after, but I am more than glad that it at least is possible now.

I don't like how the same CC number on different channels can't be displayed in separate lanes. That and how single-click select a single event works are my current pet peeves .

Originally Posted by AgiReaper

ps:I'm still using Reaper 3,do you suggest me moving to 4 even if it's alpha?...

many many thanx!

Alas, there haven't been many changes in terms of CC editing yet in the alphas. But the whole MIDI editor benefits from mouse customization quite a lot. For example you can now set it up to scrub MIDI (and CC, which is cool) by dragging on the note's area instead of the ruler area, which helps me a lot (also for quick auditioning CC movements). There are some nice additional options for note input.
I wouldn't suggest moving to an alpha version to anyone for serious projects. It's alpha after all and therefore supposed to have bugs and constantly change from one version to another, sometimes breaking stuff from a previous alpha due to basic changes.
But it doesn't hurt to check it out. If you install as portable you get a completely separate install which doesn't affect your 3.x install.

All in all, v4alpha is not a giant leap in terms of MIDI as of now. From the top of my head the biggest changes are in-project ghost items (called "pooled items") and MIDI capable faders in the mixer and track headers. The rest is small changes and tweaks. But a) the alpha cycle is not nearly finished yet, so some things may still be up the sleeves and b) last time around some of the most significant changes were not done in 3.0, but during the 3.x cycle.

[AgiReaper]

Ok,wise words,now I've understand.
Thank you for the tips