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View Poll Results: Do you think REAPER should stop working after the trial period?
YES! 33 11.58%
NO! 252 88.42%
Voters: 285. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-07-2013, 06:26 AM   #1
HugoRibeiroDotCom
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Default Do you think REAPER should stop working after the trial period?

YES!!! I think it should!
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:36 AM   #2
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No.Absolutely not.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:36 AM   #3
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I think it's a shame that some people will use software without paying for it but some models work trusting their customers (Reaper) and others require people to jump through hoops to secure their purchases.

Hopefully Reaper is successful despite the users that probably never pay.

There is a theory that says it's better to support your paying customers (constant updates and bug fixes) rather than chase down the thieves. I happen to agree with this but sadly we have lost some good companies due to people not paying for their hard work.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:41 AM   #4
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The question is what they would really be gaining from making that change...

I think its fine the way it is.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:47 AM   #5
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Yeah! I guess Cockos trusts people to make the purchase.. but I think I would like to see it happen just to see the difference. By that I mean, a lot of people who find it ridiculous working after the trial period. The so called "shareware nay sayers" for example.

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Old 06-07-2013, 06:59 AM   #6
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I really like how they assume I'm a decent dude by default. That pretty much secured my purchase decision and update purchases too (even if I have no earthly idea what the new features do - I'm here for the record button mainly).
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:01 AM   #7
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I voted no. Not only does Reaper's current licensing model work as is, but Justin already made a good chunk of money when he sold Winamp (and probably some more with Gnutella), so he doesn't need every penny from every user right up front. Better to let users get familiar with the program now and let them buy a license down the line when they can. This is an interesting marketing strategy and seems to be working out really well.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:03 AM   #8
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To the OP's question / poll, no, not now after 7-8 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I think it's a shame that some people will use software without paying for it but some models work trusting their customers (Reaper) and others require people to jump through hoops to secure their purchases.
There is also a lot of middle ground in there where there is no hoop jumping and a good amount of trust and customer comfort along with some level of product security. It's not all good vs. evil. Software licensing and activation methods and relative user comfort are somewhat diverse.

Quote:
Hopefully Reaper is successful despite the users that probably never pay.
Yes. It appears to be working very well for them.

Quote:
There is a theory that says it's better to support your paying customers (constant updates and bug fixes) rather than chase down the thieves. I happen to agree with this but sadly we have lost some good companies due to people not paying for their hard work.
Some people will always do immoral things and software copy protection (and car alarms ) will always be a fact of life because of it.

Summary: The wide open "we trust everyone to do the right thing" Cockos model is an anomaly in commercial software. It works very well for them (and users) but quite literally nobody else in the industry does it ... and from what I can tell anyway .... no Reaper users who like that model, promote it, who also develop and sell software themselves do it.

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Old 06-07-2013, 07:46 AM   #9
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The thinking behind the 'honesty box' business model is the same as for the old serial number protection, which was, of course, almost no protection at all.

It allows a SW package to spread rather like a virus and in particular, spread to young users who would not have the money for a legitimate copy. Everything from Page Maker (now InDesign) to MS Office spread like that.

The competition does something very similar, in that professional software is sold to schools and students at ridiculously low prices - get 'em young and get 'em hooked.

Once you have spent years working with a specific package, you cannot afford to learn something new, just because it is cheaper. You have 'invested' years of training in, say, ProTools and jumping ship is more than just buying CuBase or whatever - it means dumping all those years of learning.

Reaper is marching inexorably into the bedrooms of youngsters who are never going to pay for it - until one day, they find themselves in a corporate situation and having the words 'Evaluation' and a nag screen becomes embarrassing.

"What the hell! Sixty Bucks ain't much! I'll pay this time!"

And slowly, bit-by-bit, Reaper replaces other packages as these youngsters enter the workplace.

It also means that all the many, many people around the World, for whom $60 is a real burden, they have access to the best recording/editing SW available.

The alternative is to make more money (possibly!) in the short run, by selling a dongled version for c.a. $250+ and having to put half that into marketing to pay for fair stands, magazine ads and sponsorship deals. That leads to a far, far smaller user base and therefore a less well-researched and QC'ed product.

I have converted two engineers to Reaper this week and in the long run, both will un-trouser $60 and one will almost certainly move into a large company and Reaper will spread throughout that company, when the others see what it can do and how quickly you can work.

If Reaper ticks a few more boxes, such as Eucon hardware support and post-prod video tools (I know they're coming!) I can't see how this process of 'infecting' the whole market can be stopped!
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:12 AM   #10
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I voted no, being that I lightly demo'ed it far past the first 30 days while waiting for some features to be implemented before buying and using it full-time. They probably would've lost me to another product had the program timed out.

Maybe do a yearly promotional period (week or month long) where it's 50% off or you get one choice from the fabulous schwa/stillwell collection of plugins. That might help motivate lollygaggers like me
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:14 AM   #11
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No.

If reaper did this, within a month (probably much sooner) someone will have cracked it and it will be up on torrent sites without the nag screen (so there'd be even less of a chance of someone paying).

Some people are always going to pirate. Whether it's because they don't have the money, they feel entitled, or whatever is irrelevant. After the 60 days they would either stop using the software entirely or find a way around it (ex. uninstalling and reinstalling to try to get around it)


Ignore these people. Focus on treating your paying customers well and they will spread the word and keep paying. Just my thoughts.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:46 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoRibeiroDotCom View Post
Yeah! but I think I would like to see it happen just to see the difference.
First off why do you care? It's not your company or profits.
What difference? If more people pay will it run more smoothly on your comp?
Some people will pay and some will steal regardless of having to pay or not...which should make no difference to you.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drtedtan View Post
I voted no. Not only does Reaper's current licensing model work as is, but Justin already made a good chunk of money when he sold Winamp (and probably some more with Gnutella), so he doesn't need every penny from every user right up front.
I think that's an unfair statement to make. How Justin profited before Cockos is none of our business and sounds like a rationalization for stealing to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drtedtan View Post
Better to let users get familiar with the program now and let them buy a license down the line when they can. This is an interesting marketing strategy and seems to be working out really well.
I think that's why they give us 60 days. More than enough time to figure out if Reaper works for us.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:20 AM   #14
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The Byre makes an excellent point.

It isn't just inexpensive, it's good in what is probably every sense of the word.

The positive experience one has with getting it, installing it, starting it, learning it, getting help for it and then paying for it is all good. Long term good, though not all good but that's fine.

Which is why I voted No.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:21 AM   #15
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No. As far as I can tell, Reaper is the ONLY DAW that doesn't treat you like a potential criminal, and that is very refreshing. Obviously the devs aren't worried about lost sales or anything.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argle View Post
No. As far as I can tell, Reaper is the ONLY DAW that doesn't treat you like a potential criminal, and that is very refreshing. Obviously the devs aren't worried about lost sales or anything.
I see it the same way.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:38 AM   #17
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Since there isn't a "I should worry more about song writing, performance, tracking and mixing than whether someone else may or may not be getting a free ride" option. I voted No

Cockos have decided on the model that works for them
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:52 AM   #18
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There is a large group of people who are not ever going to be in the market to buy a DAW. For that group of people to be referring to Reaper is a bonus for Cockos. This amounts to "free" advertising.

For everyone else, Reaper being priced sensibly places it into a category whereby if the hypothetical user *is* likely to buy software, they're most likely to buy Reaper.

For those sitting on the fence - it's a fence that doesn't exist without Reaper. If people can use it a lot with the nag screen - I don't see that happening, so it's inversely proportional to desire for the product IMO. So again, there is a portion of the population who is at least advertising for Reaper.

For some people, 30 days is not enough to evaluate such a deep product. Not even 6 months; people might be flipping back and forth over a period of time with another product. That portion is a small amount of people IMO; Cockos may lose some there, but again - better to have people using the product than not, effectively.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:09 AM   #19
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yeah i gotta say that pirating is kind of a game, and cockos have imo made the genius decision to throw a curveball.

i think it's kind of hilarious that ppl still pirate reaper...essentially just for the sake of pirating something.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:12 AM   #20
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No no and NO
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:33 AM   #21
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I voted "NO", because I think that current business model is the most honest one and it is really attracting customers. It's also unique. And part of this is the fact that Reaper always works.

Besides - no piracy method except iLok or eLicenser works nowadays, so, unless Cockos wants to change its whole business model entirely, there is no point in making this step. There are pirate versions of Reaper nowadays, but what is unique (AGAIN!) is that even on pirate sites, people that usually steal software very often post comments like: "Hey! Don't crack Reaper, it is cheap and the developers are very fair with their customers". Those posts are made by pirates, funny, huh? So I think that current business model wins.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:54 AM   #22
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The fact that Reaper never stops functioning after the trial period, is a CORE point of the philosophy of Cockos. It is deeper than it seems... it is a message, a paradigm. Reaper wouldn't be Reaper if it behaved otherwise in this respect.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:00 AM   #23
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We need to keep in mind that this works because for $60 (non-pros) you're getting software worth 10X that amount. It's piggish not to pay for it.

If Pro Tools offered the same trusting deal for their $599 software, who would pay for it?
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:07 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henge View Post
First off why do you care? It's not your company or profits.
What difference? If more people pay will it run more smoothly on your comp?
Some people will pay and some will steal regardless of having to pay or not...which should make no difference to you.
Just curious of the nay sayers which I know a few that criticize Reaper for being cheap and continuing to work after the trial period.. for them.. the trial period is pointless if it continues to work after it expires.

Not that it matters to me.. but just curious!

cheers
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:14 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
We need to keep in mind that this works because for $60 (non-pros) you're getting software worth 10X that amount. It's piggish not to pay for it.

If Pro Tools offered the same trusting deal for their $599 software, who would pay for it?
Lol, very true. Like Sony or Apple would ever just pass out Vegas Pro and Final Cut Pro and trust that most people would - on their personal honor, yeah right - pay $5-600 for it if they didn't have to. Most commercial $20, $40, or $60 apps don't even do that.

If anyone believes that's likely to ever happen, that capitalism will suddenly shift into a Star Trek society model, I have a really nice bridge for sale.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:15 AM   #26
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Yes.... The comments about treating people like crimonals is silly. I know people will find a way to steal Reaper if they really want to but.... do we really have to make it that easy??? OK, I'm willing to compromise, make the nag screen last one hour :-)
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:24 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoRibeiroDotCom View Post
Just curious of the nay sayers which I know a few that criticize Reaper for being cheap and continuing to work after the trial period.. for them.. the trial period is pointless if it continues to work after it expires.

Not that it matters to me.. but just curious!

cheers
Some of the criticisms are from people who view it as an unfair business model... because, as you say above and as we all know, nobody has to ever pay for it.

Personally I'd say those people are somewhat delusional. There's no such thing as an unfair business model, not within typical legal and moral boundaries anyway. On the other side of that spectrum is another delusional group, the ones who actually think the Cockos free will model will spread.

The rest of us rational people in the center enjoy the benefits of good will like this when and where we can and try to live on planet Earth most of the time.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:31 AM   #28
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I was very enthusiastic to pay for Reaper just because of this buisness-model.

1. Reaper is totally worth the money
2. It gave me the feeling that the developers and the customers are not devided into to seperate camps. So reaper stands for a whole community. For a better world... with REAPER... join now!




edit:
btw. "NO!"
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:54 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
We need to keep in mind that this works because for $60 (non-pros) you're getting software worth 10X that amount. It's piggish not to pay for it.

If Pro Tools offered the same trusting deal for their $599 software, who would pay for it?

It couldn't work. Protools is too much trouble for most people to them to see it as being worth $600.

The people who really get a lot out of it are engineers, editors and mixers who work on it full time. That's a $600/$5000(HD Native) target audience.

To everyone else Protools is nothing but a good audio tracking and perhaps editing program.

To me it's a tool for very specific purposes, and in some cases the only of two options, the other being Nuendo for mixing reasonable-budget TV and Film projects in the box on a real-world schedule.

But it's old. It's old in much of its capability, its stability compared to other DAWs for general use, and some features others introduced a decade ago just passed it by.

It's living in the professional market now, where it can leverage its engineering efficiency, which is dropping by the day. The TV and film people will keep it and some of the music guys too who are lack the ability to push themselves in to trying new tech.


The possibility of paying $600 for Protools is fairly low I'd wager. Most folks would have to be forced to do so just because it's not great for so many people.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrkDadin View Post
I was very enthusiastic to pay for Reaper just because of this buisness-model.
Likewise.
I am continually impressed with both the product quality and with the product community. It's hard to find such a spirit of good will and fine craftsmanship occupying the same arena.
It's like a well adjusted family in here.

In addition:
There are many young and even some no so young people who can not afford even a small amount of money to get started in such a constructive and educational pastime. The availability of this product with it's potential can be positively life changing for them.

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Old 06-07-2013, 12:07 PM   #31
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Voted a big fat NO! And I'll gladly renew my license when Reaper v5.x is there. Cockos's business model is so refreshing, finally a company who trust its users, and on top, it seems to be working fine since so many other DAW makers are taking notice

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Old 06-07-2013, 12:18 PM   #32
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My vote for silliest poll of the year.

One of the best things about REAPER is the stand-up guys that make up Cockos.

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Old 06-07-2013, 12:46 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Voted a big fat NO! And I'll gladly renew my license when Reaper v5.x is there. Cockos's business model is so refreshing, finally a company who trust its users, and on top, it seems to be working fine since so many other DAW makers are taking notice

Chuck
Precisely my thoughts! In fact, I was going to start my post exactly the same way you started yours.
Obviously, I voted NO.

I actually have two REAPER licenses. I really only need one but when I went from version three to version four, I purchased another license even though my previous one would've given me V4 updates. It is actually refreshing to be able to support a company that listens to their users and directly interacts with us during development, adding features and tweaking functions that we actually use and, oftentimes, suggest. Kudos to JCS.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:51 PM   #34
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FWIW, I was a long time ProTools user before I jumped ship to REAPER. The thing that really sold it for me was the stability and speed with which REAPER launches. I was recording live gigs of international touring artists and hiring various devices for the recording sessions when I decided to switch over to my own dedicated rig. I decided to try REAPER for this task and it NEVER let me down in an environment where you only get one shot at capturing the event. I had backup systems running at first but I never once needed to rely on them.
At first, I used REAPER simply for tracking and ProTools for mixing but, after being blown away by REAPER's stability, I switched to mixing and mastering on it too and have never looked back.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:07 PM   #35
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i think its clever genius.

they have the little counter that shows how many times youve run reaper.

sooner or later people will get to where its a dollar for every time theyve run it, then a quarter, then a penny

meanwhile the guilt, and i don't think anyone is really free from feeling guilt at all, builds.

so the ratio for how bad you feel and how much money you're saving to feel that bad gets ridiculous.

so that leaves only people who have no souls at all, and you cant do much about that, and people who have no money at all which you kinda feel bad for and wanna help anyways...but you have to wonder where they got the computers but then again reaper probably runs fine on a $5 computer nowadays.

its bold, it flies against the obsessive money addicted scamming that plagues us, its refreshing, its even lovable.

i paid the full, i had paid for nuendo 3 and i figured since reaper was serving me way better for my onstage rig they deserved 1/5th the money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ar_3nGx2w
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:22 PM   #36
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NOOOO.

I was using sonar before and had trouble with latency and slow reaction on start stop etc, so I decided to give REAPER a try. At first I didn't like it and I thought that there was a lot of stuff missing compared to sonar. I put it aside and continued with sonar for a few months and then I discovered the SWS extentions. They got me 95% of the stuff I missed. So I bought REAPER and never looked back, I even got it to be our recording and editing software at the radio station I work, kicking audition out.

If REAPER had stoped working after 30 days, I would have never bought 6 licences: 1 for home and 5 for work.

End of story.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:43 PM   #37
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I never look back... cuz you never know what might be gaining on you... LOL

but to answer the [dumb?] question: No, No, No... a thousand times NO

and besides that, what do you care? what balls off your skin would make it matter to you?


Cockos guys have a way about doing things that is unique, brilliant and refreshing in today's world. The best 'you' could do is learn from them.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:04 PM   #38
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Quote:
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FWIW, I was a long time ProTools user before I jumped ship to REAPER. The thing that really sold it for me was the stability and speed with which REAPER launches. I was recording live gigs of international touring artists and hiring various devices for the recording sessions when I decided to switch over to my own dedicated rig. I decided to try REAPER for this task and it NEVER let me down in an environment where you only get one shot at capturing the event. I had backup systems running at first but I never once needed to rely on them.
At first, I used REAPER simply for tracking and ProTools for mixing but, after being blown away by REAPER's stability, I switched to mixing and mastering on it too and have never looked back.
Similar path to mine. I discovered Reaper some 3 years ago when, on a lark, I thought I'd see if any of the newer DAW's could run stably at 11ms or less latency and let me mix live music. ProtoolsHD was never even a candidate since even at its best it always required very extreme high latency to operate. And wow! Reaper did it. My world changed.

Then immediately after that cue:
The bug riddled disaster that was ProtoolsHD v9.
Pulling v9 from store shelves (literally) and releasing v10 with the price hiked up an extra $1000 ($1400 total and that's the discounted upgrade price).

So apparently I'm supposed to trust that they fixed everything in v10 and spend $1400 on faith (and circa 2008 functionality).


Yeah, I think Reaper has the better approach.

Pretty obvious too.

"Here check this product out. We think we nailed it."

vs.

"No I'm not even going to tell you what the features are. You need to pay full price first. Trust us."
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:08 PM   #39
Sambo Rouge
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Absolutely not!

And nag screens and noise inserts were concocted by warped minds.

The Cockos model is so fresh and has a feel good factor. Sure, you'll get the odd weirdo who will never pay and then the very poor people who want to but can't and yet crave to produce music.

But the rip off merchants are in the minority -- sort of like the ten per cent here who support the OP's mean-spirited proposal.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:43 PM   #40
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I wonder how many of the 'No' camp are volunteers for their employers. Or only want to get their salary at the discretion of the employer.

How many interns would continue to work for their employer if the employer chose not to pay them after their internship? I guess not many.

Yes, it is the same thing. People who do not pay past the trial period are making volunteers of the developers for them.

I think the paid version should be different to the expired/extended trial, otherwise there is no real benefit to buying a licence, especially if others are going to pay for it. The hour-long nag screen was a good idea. Or maybe a nag screen that pops up for 10 minutes every 5 minutes, but the paid version should have more features than the exteneded trial.

It is less fair for some to pay and others not to, and for all to get exactly the same thing. That in itself is unethical.

The point of any business is to make money, secure the lives of their employees and suppliers. Yes, give some stuff away, but not the main product. Profit is not a dirty word. Those who think it is probably never had much. The amount of profit can be an issue if it is obviously a reflection of greed, in which case consumers will be getting ripped off.

New poll: Should clients have the choice to pay you or not for the services you provided them?
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