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Old 01-12-2009, 11:56 PM   #1
220volt
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Default Recording acoustic/electric via effects pedal

This is my first post so be gentle.
Hopefully I posted this in correct forum.

I have a little dilemma about recording acoustic/electric guitar along with vocals via my GNX3000 by Digitech. Look at the photo to see all available In's and Out's.
Image of the back of my GNX3000
http://www.vanjaburic.com/images/GNX%20back.jpg

Basically I need to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the same time, and I don't want to MIC the guitar. I want to use my acoustic guitar pickup only. I also need to get them on the separate channels onto the PC.
My acoustic guitar doesn't have a preamp (just EQ with tuner), but the only preamp my GNX has is that MIC in you see on the left of the photo.
Now, I could run DI Box and record acoustic via that, but then I would not have anywhere to plug in vocal MIC. I tried plugging my guitar directly into the "guitar input" (where I plug my electric in) but the sound is so weak and low.

I am thinking about getting acoustic guitar preamp, but I wanted to see if there's any other way of recording vocals and guitar at the same time. I can do all of the above with my electric with no problem, but it's just my acoustic/electric (Yamaha FGX720SCA) that I have issues with.

I know many of you don't own GNX3000, but it should be same with any other workstations.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks in advance
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Old 01-13-2009, 06:12 AM   #2
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Do you have a guitar amp for your electric guitars?If so does it have a line out,aux,pre-amp out?If so you could plug the acoustic into that and then take the higher level output from the amp into your device.The amp's aux output should raise the voltage to a decent amount to drive the input of your device.

HTH
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:15 AM   #3
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I have Fender Champ 110 so these are ins and outs:

Guitar In
Foot Switch
External Speaker 8 ohms
Head phones

Will any of these do?

But that is a great idea though.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220volt View Post
I have Fender Champ 110 so these are ins and outs:

Guitar In
Foot Switch
External Speaker 8 ohms
Head phones

Will any of these do?

But that is a great idea though.

http://www.fender.com/support/manual...ampion_110.pdf

The headphone out would do.It may be stereo so you could use either the left or right feed or just buy a stereo to mono converter plug(they are dead cheap) and make a cable up,whatever way works

You would have to play with the settings to get the best none noise and none over-driven input to your device and the best sound but it's quite doable
Basically the headphone output of amps is at the same impedance as most pre-amps e.g a line output voltage.
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:36 AM   #5
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That is a great idea. I ask this question in many local stores and forums online, and you're the only one taht came up with the idea of using an amp.
Well, when someone knows, they know.

I will try it in couple of days. My guitar is in the shop right now.

One more question: Would I be getting better audio quality if I bought an acoustic preamp? Or it wouldn't make much difference? I want to get best audio quality possible, and I don't want to spend $100 + on preamp if headphones jack would do the same. But if preamp is the way to go, I am willing to spend money.

Thanks in advance
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:13 PM   #6
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It is a very difficult question to answer. Obviously the best option is to mic the guitar (I'm not sure why you don't want to do that), but it's a hit-or-miss with DIs and dedicated acoustic preamps. I say just try it with what you got and see if you're happy with the result.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Obviously the best option is to mic the guitar (I'm not sure why you don't want to do that)
Just a thought here - it could be because the environment is noisy and micing won't result in a good signal.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220volt View Post
That is a great idea. I ask this question in many local stores and forums online, and you're the only one taht came up with the idea of using an amp.
Well, when someone knows, they know.

I will try it in couple of days. My guitar is in the shop right now.

One more question: Would I be getting better audio quality if I bought an acoustic preamp? Or it wouldn't make much difference? I want to get best audio quality possible, and I don't want to spend $100 + on preamp if headphones jack would do the same. But if preamp is the way to go, I am willing to spend money.

Thanks in advance
It may or may not make a difference.There's a lot of variables.Is the guitars's PUP giving a good tone output,is the guitar a good sound.Try my suggestion 1st and see what you can get out of it.Your ears will tell you.
The next cheap suggestion is any cheap mixer pre-amp,even battery powered,

Even something like this,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guitar-Headpho...3A2|240%3A1318
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Last edited by Sheppola; 01-13-2009 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 01-13-2009, 05:16 PM   #9
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. I am still not sure how to hook everything up.
You said to connect my acoustic guitar to the headphone OUT on my amp. But where do I connect my effects pedal to (see photo above for available connections). Guitar IN on my amp to line OUT on the effects pedal?
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220volt View Post
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I am still not sure how to hook everything up.
You said to connect my acoustic guitar to the headphone OUT on my amp. But where do I connect my effects pedal to (see photo above for available connections). Guitar IN on my amp to line OUT on the effects pedal?
Nope.You have misunderstood.You plug your Guitar into the amp as normal.Then you take a lead from the headphone out to your input device.Set all volumes to zero and then slowly raise.
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Old 01-14-2009, 01:00 PM   #11
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Nope.You have misunderstood.You plug your Guitar into the amp as normal.Then you take a lead from the headphone out to your input device.Set all volumes to zero and then slowly raise.
I see what you mean. So I would have plug one end of the 1/4 to headphones and then stereo (two head 1/4) to IN on my GNX?
Or is this is the converter you are talking about?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062464

I have two IN's on my GNX (left and right). Will the converter do or is there a cable with two plugs on one end and one 1/4 on the other?

I would say I'd buy you a drink if it works, but for now big thanks will have to do.

Last edited by 220volt; 01-14-2009 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 01-14-2009, 04:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220volt View Post
I see what you mean. So I would have plug one end of the 1/4 to headphones and then stereo (two head 1/4) to IN on my GNX?
Or is this is the converter you are talking about?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062464

I have two IN's on my GNX (left and right). Will the converter do or is there a cable with two plugs on one end and one 1/4 on the other?

I would say I'd buy you a drink if it works, but for now big thanks will have to do.
Yes you should be able to get a feed from the heaphone output into one side of your device and your vocal into the other
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Old 01-14-2009, 04:19 PM   #13
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Well, I can record vocal via MIC Input on GNX which already has a preamp on it.

My question was, headphone has only one 1/4 OUT while my GNX has two 1/4 inputs (left and right). Do I need a cable that has one jack on one end and two 1/4 jacks on other end? Meaning, plug one into the headphone and other end with two jacks into the GNX left and right? Or do I need only one regular guitar cable?

Thanks again
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Old 01-14-2009, 04:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220volt View Post
Well, I can record vocal via MIC Input on GNX which already has a preamp on it.

My question was, headphone has only one 1/4 OUT while my GNX has two 1/4 inputs (left and right). Do I need a cable that has one jack on one end and two 1/4 jacks on other end? Meaning, plug one into the headphone and other end with two jacks into the GNX left and right? Or do I need only one regular guitar cable?

Thanks again
I think you may get away with just one guitar lead so try it and see what you can get.If not then get or make up a cable to suit
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Old 01-18-2009, 04:40 PM   #15
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Hey, I tried your method and it worked. I get huge volume now, but there's a different problem now.

I can manipulate sound and eq as much as I can, but guitar sounds like it has plastic strings on it or something. I get that pinchy sound like you get on a nylon strings.
It's not natural at all. I know guitar via pickup vs natural will sound different, but it should sound lot better than this.
Here's a sample
http://www.vanjaburic.com/mp3sample/acoustic%20test.wma

I have tried all eq, volume settings possible to man. No matter what I do, i still get that artificial sound.
Maybe I do need a preamp or maybe USB interface with the preamp so I can bypass my GNX totally.

How do you guys record acoustic onto the PC, without external MIC? I know good condenser is a way to go, but I have to do it without it for now.

Thanks as always
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:15 PM   #16
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The link doesn't work from some reason, but it doesn't surprise me one single bit.
I never managed to get a natural sounding acoustic using the built in pickup, no matter how expensive the pickup was. I record acoustic guitars direct wither when I'm particularly lazy and this is just a demo I'm making for myself, or when I aim for that specific plasticy sound (which sometimes cuts great through a dense rock mix), or when hell freezes over.
A mic, essentially ANY mic, when properly placed and processed, will get you far more natural results than the pickup.
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrenS View Post
The link doesn't work from some reason, but it doesn't surprise me one single bit.
I never managed to get a natural sounding acoustic using the built in pickup, no matter how expensive the pickup was. I record acoustic guitars direct wither when I'm particularly lazy and this is just a demo I'm making for myself, or when I aim for that specific plasticy sound (which sometimes cuts great through a dense rock mix), or when hell freezes over.
A mic, essentially ANY mic, when properly placed and processed, will get you far more natural results than the pickup.
For some reason link opens up in some kind of weird player. Just paste the link in your browser, and you;ll see what I mean.
I agree, that good condenser would be way to go, but I gotta be able to get better sound than the one I have right now.

I've seen preamps that people swear by. Like Tech21 (http://reviews.harmony-central.com/r...oustic+DI/10/2)
Just look at the ratings on that puppy for the sound quality.
You think good preamp would bring it up to the par?

Thanks
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Old 01-18-2009, 09:52 PM   #18
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Sounds exactly like a DI'ed acoustic to me...

Regarding the Tech21 box, I have no idea. Never tried the myself, but I'm always skeptical of Harmony Central reviews. Note that this specific model has been discontinued and replaced by the Para Driver DI.
I'll ask it again - for the 200$ or so that this box costs, you can easily buy a decent condenser or four... Why do you insist on a direct recording?
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:21 PM   #19
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Sounds exactly like a DI'ed acoustic to me...

Regarding the Tech21 box, I have no idea. Never tried the myself, but I'm always skeptical of Harmony Central reviews. Note that this specific model has been discontinued and replaced by the Para Driver DI.
I'll ask it again - for the 200$ or so that this box costs, you can easily buy a decent condenser or four... Why do you insist on a direct recording?
They also say that Para Drive DI is not as good as Acoustic one. I am also skeptical person by nature, but if 20 reviewers are saying the same thing, there must be something to ti. Some of them are seasoned musicians (or so they say)

Reason I insist on direct is because I will be doing lots of movements and won't be able to sit at one place. It's going to be audio plus video. But also I want to be flexible. I want to be able to get good sound both ways.

Not sure if you can get even one good condenser below $200. Can you send me a link for that?

Thanks for your help
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:46 PM   #20
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If mobility is your concern, I'd look at this:
http://www.lrbaggs.com/html/products/pickups_m1.shtml
Check out the sound samples on the site, they're very impressive.

A pretty decent general purpose condenser mic for less than 100$ would be - for instance - the Studio Projects B1, or something from the MXL series.
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Old 01-18-2009, 11:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
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If mobility is your concern, I'd look at this:
http://www.lrbaggs.com/html/products/pickups_m1.shtml
Check out the sound samples on the site, they're very impressive.

A pretty decent general purpose condenser mic for less than 100$ would be - for instance - the Studio Projects B1, or something from the MXL series.
Will definitely look into Project B1 for future recordings.

However lrbaggs M1 pickup still requires a preamp or DI box. While their M1 Active modeldoesn't. M1 Active is 50% more expensive than M1 though.
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