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Old 09-15-2018, 11:18 PM   #41
machinesworking
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You know, I wish it was possible for there to be a respectable discussion about Reapers end user experience without one side claiming that Reaper is a steaming pile and the other claiming there is absolutely nothing ever wrong with it.

Probably has to do with the fact that people wait until they feel somehow maligned by Reaper! lol!
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:52 PM   #42
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About the comps just 2 words: getting rid of the splitting system would be the first step to start calling it a comping system. I can keep going, but if they don't change this first, the discussion cannot even start.
That won't happen. Cockos doesn't remove features (by their own admission). So takes as a part of an item will stay there forever. Removing that would break so many things and other people's workflows, so it will not change. There could be other ways of dealing with takes (i.e. adding stuff to free item positioning mode), but changing something that's already there in such a drastic way just won't happen, forget it.

There's also gonna be the Playlist script by sexan, which seems like it will help a lot of people, since it's basically copying track versions from Cubase (or PT's playlist). (You were already in that thread.)
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:47 AM   #43
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You know, I wish it was possible for there to be a respectable discussion about Reapers end user experience
Which end user ?

I do suppose there are more than one.

-Michael
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:54 AM   #44
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You know, I wish it was possible for there to be a respectable discussion about Reapers end user experience without one side claiming that Reaper is a steaming pile and the other claiming there is absolutely nothing ever wrong with it.
You've never been to the Melda Production forum. Folks kill you there if you make a suggestion to change the UI. It's easy going in this part of the Internet.

Masi
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:58 AM   #45
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for musician
So not for recording, mixing, mastering engineers? Not for video game and movie sound design? Not for video and audio project postprocessing?

Maybe I'm wrog but historically DAWs have probabyl not been invented for musicions but for engineers.

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Old 09-16-2018, 01:11 AM   #46
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There's Garageband for "the musician".
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:19 AM   #47
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So not for recording, mixing, mastering engineers? Not for video game and movie sound design? Not for video and audio project postprocessing?

Maybe I'm wrog but historically DAWs have probabyl not been invented for musicions but for engineers.

Masi
I might be mistaken, but I consider all those categories being part of the music field, hence the use of the improper word musician, which is anyway, the closest to all those categories. You are right, on the net is so easy to play with words and you can play this game nicely..anyway, to clarify, as it seems needed, it meant “not only for people into computer programming, software developing....wathever you want to call it.
Hope it is clear now.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:25 AM   #48
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That won't happen. Cockos doesn't remove features (by their own admission). So takes as a part of an item will stay there forever. Removing that would break so many things and other people's workflows, so it will not change. There could be other ways of dealing with takes (i.e. adding stuff to free item positioning mode), but changing something that's already there in such a drastic way just won't happen, forget it.

There's also gonna be the Playlist script by sexan, which seems like it will help a lot of people, since it's basically copying track versions from Cubase (or PT's playlist). (You were already in that thread.)
Do you really think a daw can survive without being able to change such things? You will have surprises.

I'm badly aiming for the sexan playlist, at the same time, I agree with the guy who wrote the post: it should be done natively.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:28 AM   #49
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Reaper survived for well over 10 years now, so I don't worry about it at all.

In any case, there's plenty of options in the market for different take systems. Don't like what's in there in Reaper? Feel free to use another DAW.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:57 AM   #50
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I feel that the acceptance of Reaper in the music production world has increased a lot since I started to use Reaper some four years ago, and has reached a "point of no return" during that period.

-Michael
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:28 AM   #51
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Reaper survived for well over 10 years now, so I don't worry about it at all.

In any case, there's plenty of options in the market for different take systems. Don't like what's in there in Reaper? Feel free to use another DAW.
You guys besides being very good with reaper, and certainly in music in general (and in computers), are also very good in the particular skill of mystifying wha people says.

I said "you'll be surprised" which meant obviously " Reaper will change things over times, in v7-8 or 25 but it will....hence will not dye. The old habit will.

Look, you really open up my mind with your last sentence (I have to say I was opened my mind before by some other users) by saying that if I don't like it I can use another daw. You know, it was an option I didn't manage to think about it. In fact, I was exploring as alternative the option of stopping making music or going back to tape recording....thank you for the precious advice.
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:29 AM   #52
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I might be mistaken, but I consider all those categories being part of the music field, hence the use of the improper word musician, which is anyway, the closest to all those categories. You are right, on the net is so easy to play with words and you can play this game nicely..anyway, to clarify, as it seems needed, it meant “not only for people into computer programming, software developing....wathever you want to call it.
Hope it is clear now.
Ah, ok.

BTW, I like many of the features in Reaper that are available out-of-the-box (ie no scripting). To be able to script things is one of the killer features of Reaper. That said I think a) yes, there is room for improvement of the UI and b) I hate it when folks answer with the write-a-script-for it mantra (assuming everyone is a programmer). Actually I *am* a programmer. But I don't want to waste my spare time with even more programming when I want to make music.

My advice: write more post asking only for one improvement in each. Explain shortly what you want to achieve. Chances are way more higher you get thumbs up. Though there is no guarantee. I've made suggestion that were important for me but nobody bothered.

Masi

PS: AFAIK the guys that run Cockos are also the developers of Reaper. So after all it is a by devs for devs application
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:13 AM   #53
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Ah, ok.

BTW, I like many of the features in Reaper that are available out-of-the-box (ie no scripting). To be able to script things is one of the killer features of Reaper. That said I think a) yes, there is room for improvement of the UI and b) I hate it when folks answer with the write-a-script-for it mantra (assuming everyone is a programmer). Actually I *am* a programmer. But I don't want to waste my spare time with even more programming when I want to make music.

My advice: write more post asking only for one improvement in each. Explain shortly what you want to achieve. Chances are way more higher you get thumbs up. Though there is no guarantee. I've made suggestion that were important for me but nobody bothered.

Masi

PS: AFAIK the guys that run Cockos are also the developers of Reaper. So after all it is a by devs for devs application
Nice talking to you Masi. Sometimes internet can be very tricky. I think what you said is really right and I think is great that script exists and users (the ones that know how to do it) can do things which everybody can take advantage of, because nobody better than users know what is needed.

I am really having hard time with this daw, never happened before, but, by the time they will make any changes, I will have my way around it. In this thread I was simply venting my frustration of so many hours spent understanding basic stuff that on any other platform are just a joke for me.

Anyway, I guess it should be clear by now the way I think about it.

Cheers
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:06 AM   #54
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Masi does have a point.

I deal with beginners all the time. And those aren't necessarily complete beginners. Just professionals coming over from ProTools, or people who are not used to work with a computer for audio. They're very well adjusted to the venerable LS9a, but not to a DAW.

And they have different needs. The live amplification guys don't need MIDI, fi. And the composers don't need recording in some cases.

Maybe REAPER could ask at first run which parts of the application the user would like to keep hidden?

It would shorten and simplify the menus.


EDIT: and a button in the prefs somewhere "go back to virgin state".
That would allow people experimenting and getting confused to start over.


One of the problems with beginners is that it takes a long time to find your way in the menus. We've tried making custom menus, but that confuses them even more because once they leave our environment and install REAPER at home, they've got another structure. That's why we are running REAPER bog standard these days. And now we have to fight the other end: visiting experienced users who quickly customise some setting and of course, don't reverse their customization when done.

This leads us to the idea we might want ro run REAPER on a closed, headless box with just remote web control. But that's when we run into the plugin problem. Some of our users might need to run a specific VST and obviously can't install that from the remote.

We have a solution already for plugins. Before a new session, we run a cleanup script that removes any plugins not on our list, also to avoid license problems.

We' also tried resetting REAPER to virgin state. That works, but it's far from ideal. And resetting REAPER to a certain standard state doesn't work without glitches here and there. We've abandoned that idea a long time ago.

All of this means we need several computers for one performance. A real PITA. Having an easily configurable REAPER would be very useful in our environment.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:29 AM   #55
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My advice: write more post asking only for one improvement in each. Explain shortly what you want to achieve. Chances are way more higher you get thumbs up. Though there is no guarantee. I've made suggestion that were important for me but nobody bothered.
This is good advice. I would also suggest avoiding something like "make the GUI better" or "make it more user friendly." Those kinds of requests are vague at best and do little to further your request. Think of something specific.

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AFAIK the guys that run Cockos are also the developers of Reaper. So after all it is a by devs for devs application
This is also true.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:01 AM   #56
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If you think Reaper is a mess and you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy, I'd hate to see what you think of the DAW's you rejected
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:44 AM   #57
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If you think Reaper is a mess and you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy, I'd hate to see what you think of the DAW's you rejected
you really made me laugh...seriously!

Yeah, you're right, I'm a bit difficult Thing is that is also very difficult to have the real message passes. I would not suggest it to my worst enemy and it is true, but just because of the learning curve, I would tell him: are you ready to spend a full month basically without working in order to learn it? I can sort of use it now, so, I don't need to judge it from "the learning curve" point of view. Now to me is, pretty much a regular daw. At the point I am I see the strengths and weaknesses and today, and of course it may change as I am still a newbie, it's like any other daw, I like it a lot for certain things...I detest it for others...but you really made me laugh, and this is good!

Cheers

P.S. When I say normal I mean...not really. I still move the cursor with a key in the arrange window and another one in the piano roll and this, to me, is not exactly a symptom of normality!

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Old 09-17-2018, 10:04 AM   #58
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So why don't you change the key commands so they match? The facilities to do so are there.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:56 PM   #59
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So why don't you change the key commands so they match? The facilities to do so are there.
You know, sometimes...just sometimes, I feel like making music, so you find yourself in the middle of something, open the midi editor, sure out of your 30 years experience with midi softwares, that the navigation cannot be any different from the arrange window and you find, instead, that with the same keys nothing happens....at that point, but just for a seconds you think: f...yoy, I'm gonna do it with what I have, and the mouse start going up and down hitting the most uncomfortable keys ever.

By the way, as you are so very kind when it comes to give advices, do you know if it possible that those navigation control might be working also when plugins are active? Or actually with any window?

Cheers
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:16 AM   #60
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By the way, as you are so very kind when it comes to give advices, do you know if it possible that those navigation control might be working also when plugins are active? Or actually with any window?
In the latest prerelease there's a new section in Actions list called "Global key override", where you can assign keyboard assignments which will always work regardless of window you're on. Gotta be careful tho, you don't want single keys (like "K", say) assigned, or they wouldn't be working in text fields then.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:58 AM   #61
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Wouldn't be possible for the text fields to override the override when they have the focus (i.e. cursor blinking)?
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:15 AM   #62
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In the latest prerelease there's a new section in Actions list called "Global key override", where you can assign keyboard assignments which will always work regardless of window you're on. Gotta be careful tho, you don't want single keys (like "K", say) assigned, or they wouldn't be working in text fields then.
That’s a good news. What is wrong with K? It happened to be in my set the key that I use to unzoom to previous zooming level...but in case of necessity I can change it.
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:40 PM   #63
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Reaper is about building your dream-daw yourself. If you dont want to do that, you should switch the program you use right now. Simple as that.
The sentiment is nonsense and pops up in Reaper forums way more than it should. I saw someone say that if you're not willing to download extensions and scripts, then you shouldn't be using Reaper, with the implication that Reaper is essentially broken at install and you need to build it up into a functioning DAW. It's bullshit, doing a disservice to Reaper and potentially chasing people away that would dig Reaper.

Reaper is a fantastic DAW out of the box. Yes, it's customizable, but I switched from Cubase to Reaper because I prefered the experience from day *one*, in particular the way mouse and keyboard inputs work for basic editing.

As for the OP, just ignore the troll. Reaper is more than the sum of its flaws.

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Old 09-19-2018, 02:01 PM   #64
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I saw someone say that if you're not willing to download extensions and scripts, then you shouldn't be using Reaper, with the implication that Reaper is essentially broken at install and you need to build it up into a functioning DAW. It's bullshit, doing a disservice to Reaper and potentially chasing people away that would dig Reaper.
That's true. Reaper can be used well without using a custom theme, extension or scripts.

Masi

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Old 09-19-2018, 08:22 PM   #65
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please make v6 for talented EDM childrens without stupid scripts without docs and this ugly design from 90s
who read dat stupid docs and manuals? why can i just push turn and move fancy colored switches buttonsand knobs whatever so I can just create my fcking stuff from scratch without programmer shit and ugly geek menus I see now! MAKE REAPA DAW AGAIN!!!11!!!!1!!

LOL --- that cracked me up. Too funny, and also true.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:46 PM   #66
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The sentiment is nonsense and pops up in Reaper forums way more than it should. I saw someone say that if you're not willing to download extensions and scripts, then you shouldn't be using Reaper, with the implication that Reaper is essentially broken at install and you need to build it up into a functioning DAW. It's bullshit, doing a disservice to Reaper and potentially chasing people away that would dig Reaper.

Reaper is a fantastic DAW out of the box. Yes, it's customizable, but I switched from Cubase to Reaper because I prefered the experience from day *one*, in particular the way mouse and keyboard inputs work for basic editing.

As for the OP, just ignore the troll. Reaper is more than the sum of its flaws.
I actually agree with the fact that without extensions it is pretty much useless. Although, I don't think they are able to complete change the picture.
But I'm very curious about you coming from cubase: I used to use it 20 years ago and it was horrible compared to Logic (my opinion). Before getting reaper I was undecided between the two of them, I chose reaper as I thought it might have a newer approach...and I loved the idea of customization. I saw Kenny Gioia videos and I was thrilled about using it. But video are different from reality and for me it doesn't make it so far.
So, I would like to know, if you compare cubase comping to the fake splitting comping system in Reaper, do you find Reaper better?
The stretch marker against the warp system, where in reaper you cannot select more than a stretch marker at time having to rely again on splitting, is it better in Reaper?
The lacking of a groove to audio function how makes it better to Cubase?
The missing of Ara 5 years away from its creation, makes Reaper better? I know that it will implemented soon...in my opinion this soon it is actually very late, but even most important, denotes an attitude to act late on very important features.
For sure the strength of Reaper are all in mixing routing (not a secondary issue), I can imagine it being miles away better than cubase. I also love the track selection windows, although, its usability is reduced by the fact you cannot save track selections.
The way I see Cubase, from a non user point of view and therefore could be totally wrong, is of a program who never really innovates, but is good to copy what other daws do.
I'm very interested in the question I made, they are real questions and not just for the sake of underlining reaper's weaknesses, but maybe those answer can help me understand the perspective of somebody coming from cubase that is happy with Reaper because, I cannot get what makes you happy with this daw, aside from its low price.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:39 PM   #67
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if you compare cubase comping to the fake splitting comping system in Reaper, do you find Reaper better?
Reaper's comping system is vastly superior, and it's one of my favorite things about Reaper.

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The stretch marker against the warp system, where in reaper you cannot select more than a stretch marker at time having to rely again on splitting, is it better in Reaper?
Reaper's stretch markers and severely limited tuning plugin can't hold a candle to VariAudio, though VariAudio is sometimes buggy and if we get good Melodyne support via ARA2 that will be a win. I'm not holding my breath though, mostly because I have little faith in Celemony.

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the lacking of a groove to audio function how makes it better to Cubase?
This is an incredibly stupid, loaded statement, reminiscence of your original post in this thread.

I'm going to say something now, and I want you to read carefully, because it cuts to the core of your mental block:

All DAWS are flawed.

They all have strengths. They all have weaknesses. I have nearly a thousand dollars sunk into Cubase over the years, keeping it up-to-date for over a decade, and I have hardware I chose over other options purely because of Cubase integration. I was exposed to Reaper only because I was trying to introduce my son to DAWs and wanted something without a dongle. After a week of using Reaper I ditched Cubase for it because I vastly prefer Reaper's collection of strengths and weakness over Cubase's collection of strengths and weaknesses.

Reaper is not the sum of its flaws. If you think there's something better, why aren't you using it? Are you broke? Are you using this forum to whine about your money problems?

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I cannot get what makes you happy with this daw, aside from its low price.
I can afford to have any DAW I want, or all the DAWs. I chose Reaper utterly without regard for its price.

I love Reaper because it's so easy to fly around its Vegas-inspired UI and get shit done. Cubase is full of quirks and poor UI decisions that hamper workflow. There's a lot more special cases and hand-holding. For instance, it has a dozen different track types, all of which can be replicated in Reaper with one track type and a handful of carefully chosen concepts. Reaper is conceptually simpler than almost any DAW, can be learned in its entirely easier than most other DAWs, and is flexible enough to accommodate pretty much anything.

It doesn't have the sexy Melodyne-integration of StudioOne, it doesn't have the sample/groove manipulation of Ableton, it doesn't have the virtual instrument libraries of Logic, so on and so forth. But what it does have matters to me more than the things it doesn't.

The question is what DAW are you happy with, and why aren't you using it?

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Old 09-20-2018, 12:14 AM   #68
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... collection of strengths and weaknesses.
Nicely put.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:24 AM   #69
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The missing of Ara 5 years away from its creation, makes Reaper better? I know that it will implemented soon...in my opinion this soon it is actually very late, but even most important, denotes an attitude to act late on very important features.
What's so great about that ARA stuff? I googled it and found that its ony good for Melodyne. And I don't care about Melodyne at all. AFAIK Reaper isn't even alone in not haveing ARA support.

Masi
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:00 AM   #70
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Nicely put.
No actually. Not nicely put at all. When somebody who got asked sincere questions in reply he says that you must have a mental dysfunction...I'm sorry man, that is not nicely put that is just disgusting. I won't reply to that animal anymore for sure.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:06 AM   #71
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What's so great about that ARA stuff? I googled it and found that its ony good for Melodyne. And I don't care about Melodyne at all. AFAIK Reaper isn't even alone in not haveing ARA support.

Masi
You might not care, somebody does. In fact, Reaper is implementing it.
Ara in my opinion is a big deal because integrates into your daw third party plugins in a way that was impossible before, right now is basically melodyne and synchro arts but in the future will be broader.
But if you read carefully what I wrote, you will see that I say more about ARA itself, shows more an attitude of being late on some very important innovation, that you might find not useful, but it is clear that Cockos does not think it that way, as they are implementing ...when...

Anyway, saying that reaper comping is the best comping makes me really laugh hard.....I have a copy of notator...some people in this forum might want to have it....
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:10 AM   #72
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Reaper already had its own API that could do the same stuff ARA could, before ARA existed (it's called AudioAccessor). But since ARA1 was developed in tight cooperation with Presonus, they didn't want to implement that in there. So there you have it.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:22 AM   #73
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Reaper already had its own API that could do the same stuff ARA could, before ARA existed (it's called AudioAccessor). But since ARA1 was developed in tight cooperation with Presonus, they didn't want to implement that in there. So there you have it.
And from an user standpoint, do you think this is a satisfactory reason?!?
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:25 AM   #74
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Miul: When you feel you are being boxed into a corner, maybe you should re-read and revise the way you phrase things?

In theory, we are all fellow Reaper users on here & the last thing anyone needs is words like "useless" and other sweeping generalisations being bandied about, rather than reasoned debate.

My first reaction to that was to think to my self "this idiot obviously has no clue about DAWs if he genuinely thinks that" - even though you already told us at great length that you had years of experience with other DAWs.

So: deep breath, smile before you post... and lets see if we can`t all make this thread into a worthwhile discussion of the pluses and minuses of Reaper, if that is what you really want to discuss.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:31 AM   #75
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Miul: When you feel you are being boxed into a corner, maybe you should re-read and revise the way you phrase things?

In theory, we are all fellow Reaper users on here & the last thing anyone needs is words like "useless" and other sweeping generalisations being bandied about, rather than reasoned debate.

My first reaction to that was to think to my self "this idiot obviously has no clue about DAWs if he genuinely thinks that" - even though you already told us at great length that you had years of experience with other DAWs.

So: deep breath, smile before you post... and lets see if we can`t all make this thread into a worthwhile discussion of the pluses and minuses of Reaper, if that is what you really want to discuss.
Quote me where I've been rude. I can right away "this idiot obviously has no clue about DAWs if he genuinely thinks that".
Do you think with people like you we can have a real discussion? Me and Evildragon have a totally different views on issues, although he never insulted me, I made real questions, I genuinely wanted to know from a user standpoint what he really liked better about reaper and he replied me that way?With you guys saying nicely said? Disgusting.

Last edited by Miul; 09-20-2018 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:39 AM   #76
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And from an user standpoint, do you think this is a satisfactory reason?!?
Yes, because you can't really influence everything as an user. In Reaper's case you can influence more than with most other DAWs, though, but in this case, the way ARA1 was concocted just didn't work well with Reaper internally, so it never happened. For a team of two guys the workload and the amount of drastic changes in the Reaper codebase that ARA1 demanded wasn't worth it, it is unfortunate but as a programmer and a user I understand the repercussions, so it's fine with me that it ended up like that. ARA2 is much improved, though, so that's even better, in the long run.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:40 AM   #77
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No actually. Not nicely put at all. When somebody who got asked sincere questions in reply he says that you must have a mental dysfunction...I'm sorry man, that is not nicely put that is just disgusting. I won't reply to that animal anymore for sure.
It should be obvious that I was referring to the part I quoted:
"... collection of strengths and weaknesses."
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:03 AM   #78
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In the latest prerelease there's a new section in Actions list called "Global key override", where you can assign keyboard assignments which will always work regardless of window you're on. Gotta be careful tho, you don't want single keys (like "K", say) assigned, or they wouldn't be working in text fields then.
Great to know, but I kind of wish this was implemented the other way around, basically if the vanilla Reaper instal had key commands be globally assigned, and you could choose to limit them to certain windows afterwards. This would make a lot more sense, especially coming from other DAWs that do not have edit window specific keyboard assignments.
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:07 AM   #79
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Reaper's comping system is vastly superior, and it's one of my favorite things about Reaper.
I do not get this, could you explain what exactly you like better about it??
To me not being able to freely draw comps limits the ability to improvise takes and choose the best improvisations. Splitting takes at the same point in time is great when you have a part worked out 100% and are trying to nail it etc, but to me it's in the way when it comes to using takes to compose.
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:18 AM   #80
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Which end user ?

I do suppose there are more than one.

-Michael
OK for example the MIDI editor, it's great, it also cannot be saved in an open state in a template, for whatever reason. Every other DAW I use can do this. If you can tell me a reason why this is a better option I'm all ears, because to me I want to have it open on a second monitor at full screen in one of my templates. That, is an end user experience. Like you mention, we all have different needs so you personally might not care about this, but we can both agree that I have a specific desire for this feature that is based in an end user experience. One that you would in turn benefit from as well.

I think randomly complaining about a software you're using is pointless, and calling it flawed etc. is hyperbole for sure, but it's possible to point out parts of a DAW you think could be improved, and hopefully others will not be too offended by that right?
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