Old 12-02-2011, 04:05 PM   #41
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Whether I'm great or crap, there's easily enough talent in the rest of the Theme Team to shame any other DAW. With their hands tied. Its not a 'lack of talent' thing, and its not a 'there's a right answer' thing, so look ...just forget all that nonsense. Its just wrong. That is not to say that dissatisfaction with the interface is wrong (good grief, we all do plenty of that), but spitting on the makers of the default theme, while perfectly permissible, is ...uninformed.

Spitting on the makers of all the free personal themes out there with unpleasant sweeping statements is, however, far from just uninformed. Its flat-out rude. It is also profoundly counter-productive, because these guys work from a sense of community. Many of my favourite themers are not currently active, these guys need encouragement. You might hate what they do, but you won't know till they've done it. Maybe one of them might be the one who makes a theme that rocks your world ...but you'll never know if they aren't fed a generous diet of encouragement, friendly advice, well worded criticism, respect and gratitude. There are two ways to tell someone that they're not hitting the mark, and one of them just makes him think you're a dick. Think about it.

To several of you who are new to the Reaper community : welcome. We're nice round here. Being nice makes the community strong.
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:09 PM   #42
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World domination is for kids. ......... We are going ....



Our community is THAT BIG !

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnie View Post
Yep. But if the "volume" in mixerview is availeble meters are too big.
Tried them all a few minutes ago.



Yes, I could, if I would. But I am not a themer, please understand. I USE a DAW, and I DONT want do design it.
But I have to thank you: you are the only one, who is not getting that huffy if anyone is criticising Reaper.

Well, I think, HERE is no discussion possible for me. All others, stay in your small world, and think, that Reaper is going to take te World-DAW-Domination.
Maybe a developer reads this topic, and maybe thinks about it.
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by sonnie View Post
you are the only one, who is not getting that huffy if anyone is criticising Reaper.
That's highly generalizing bullshit.

a) you are not critizizing Reaper but make an "all Reaper themes pretty much suck because they don't please me" statement
b) he's not the only one who doesn't get huffy
c) you're not anyone
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnie View Post
Yes, I could, if I would. But I am not a themer, please understand. I USE a DAW, and I DONT want do design it.
Naturally. We just wanted to provide you with a possible temporary
solution (or an improvement) to your current interface dissatisfaction.
If you'll ask nicely and provide coders with details, I'm sure a fellow
will gladly modify a few lines to make it better for you.

We agree on the part that Reaper would well benefit with an own
and coherent interface, but to get there a good functionality foundation
has to be made, and looking at efficiency and minimalism of current
program code - it seems pretty amazing. And I'm sure devs consider
functionality and musical/editing features a priority over looks. Which
is the first thing a craftsman looks for in a good tool.

e
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:35 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
That's highly generalizing bullshit.

a) you are not critizizing Reaper but make an "all Reaper themes pretty much suck because they don't please me" statement
b) he's not the only one who doesn't get huffy
c) you're not anyone
whut?
a) no. Please read my posts again. Dont generalize
b) thats right. I'm sorry for that. Just CoachZ is trolling around, and you are not huffy, just not very kind.
c) well, I am just a nickname for this community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
Whether I'm great or crap, there's easily enough talent in the rest of the Theme Team to shame any other DAW. With their hands tied. Its not a 'lack of talent' thing, and its not a 'there's a right answer' thing, so look ...just forget all that nonsense. Its just wrong. That is not to say that dissatisfaction with the interface is wrong (good grief, we all do plenty of that), but spitting on the makers of the default theme, while perfectly permissible, is ...uninformed.
Sorry if I make feel you or any other themer like crap, that was not my intention. I totally respect your work, but I just couldn't use it (exept default), because there are mostly bad, bad designing failures / mistakes, and they look and feel just unusable to me (and many others).

The thing is, Reaper has no really CI like PT and Cubase...

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie
Spitting on the makers of all the free personal themes out there with unpleasant sweeping statements is, however, far from just uninformed. Its flat-out rude. It is also profoundly counter-productive, because these guys work from a sense of community. Many of my favourite themers are not currently active, these guys need encouragement. You might hate what they do, but you won't know till they've done it. Maybe one of them might be the one who makes a theme that rocks your world ...but you'll never know if they aren't fed a generous diet of encouragement, friendly advice, well worded criticism, respect and gratitude. There are two ways to tell someone that they're not hitting the mark, and one of them just makes him think you're a dick. Think about it.
You are right. My english is far away from beeing good, I dint know the right words to say it, like i'd say it with my mother tongue.

But I please you to understand my point of view. I don't want to look like a hater, who just want another "Random-DAW" clone. Reaper is more than it, and the beginning of beeing a DAW whitch fucks up with the big ones is done.
But there NEED to be more than this. And if the community always say "Themes are all good", "Reaper is perfect", "you are tolling reapers themer", "you just don't understand us" blah blah, it will never get the status of a professional DAW, eye-on-eye with PT or or others, I am wishing so hard (?) for Reaper to be in a few years.
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:41 PM   #46
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Hi sonnie
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnie View Post
Well, I think, HERE is no discussion possible for me. All others, stay in your small world, and think, that Reaper is going to take te World-DAW-Domination.
Maybe a developer reads this topic, and maybe thinks about it.
Kein fairer Rückzug sonnie oder auch 'schlechter Abgang' bzw. schlechter Stil, gerade auch noch mit der Anmache... 'stay In your small World usw....' Du kommst mit wehenden Fahnen und bist dann enttäuscht wenn nicht alle 'Hurra' rufen, sorry. Auch wenn's im Grunde gut gemeint war.

Different people have different opinions and you should respect that, thats normal. For me there are enough good theme's to work with, also professional. And if you don't can work 'professional' with Reaper because the Theme is not 'professional enough' for you and you have no time , because to busy, then only work with PT or any other DAW.... I'm working with Logic, Reaper and a little bit with Studio One V2. All are different, because no one is Perfect.
But most importantly is the Guy who works with this tools. Can HE make professional Music and/or knows what is professional recording and mixing? If not, no 'professional Theme' will help him.
I think you can professional work now with Reaper. And Logic User's and other are working over years with there static Theme's. And it functions
Don't think you're the only Guy who works professional with DAW's. So be cool and make Music instead thoughts of 'professional Themes'

Regards
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:45 PM   #47
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Kein fairer Rückzug sonnie oder auch 'schlechter Abgang' bzw. schlechter Stil, gerade auch noch mit der Anmache... 'stay In your small World usw....' Du kommst mit wehenden Fahnen und bist dann enttäuscht wenn nicht alle 'Hurra' rufen, sorry. Auch wenn's im Grund gut gemeint war.
Stimmt, deswegen eine Art Entschuldigung eins über dir. Das Ding ist, dass dieses Klicki-Bunti-Rund und evtl. noch 3D-Look absolut den Hahn abschießt.
Dann noch ein paar Design-Katastrophen rein, und fertig sind 90% der momentanen Themes. Ich will hier keinen schlecht reden, und finde die Arbeit für die Community gut, aber ich darf doch wohl sagen, dass mir das nicht gefällt, und ich nicht allein dastehe.
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:47 PM   #48
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Actually I thought i was being a lil bit huffy

Regardless, this too shall pass, Reaper will evolve.

No one is happy, with every daw, or every theme.

That's life.
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:54 PM   #49
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I'm still laughing over eye-cancer.
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:55 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vStyler View Post
Regardless, this too shall pass, Reaper will evolve.
Of course it will. I just want to give some input to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vStyler View Post
No one is happy, with every daw, or every theme.

That's life.
Sadly true.
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Old 12-02-2011, 04:56 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnie View Post
Stimmt, deswegen eine Art Entschuldigung eins über dir. Das Ding ist, dass dieses Klicki-Bunti-Rund und evtl. noch 3D-Look absolut den Hahn abschießt.
Dann noch ein paar Design-Katastrophen rein, und fertig sind 90% der momentanen Themes. Ich will hier keinen schlecht reden, und finde die Arbeit für die Community gut, aber ich darf doch wohl sagen, dass mir das nicht gefällt, und ich nicht allein dastehe.
Klar kannst du .
I don't like 'Klicki-Bunti' too, (means 'to multicolored'), but how I said, I think there are some good Theme's to work with.

And I agree to this too:

vStyler:
No one is happy, with every daw, or every theme.
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Old 12-02-2011, 05:12 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Noisebeat View Post
Klar kannst du .
I don't like 'Klicki-Bunti' too, (means 'to multicolored'), but how I said, I think there are some good Theme's to work with.

And I agree to this too:

vStyler:
No one is happy, with every daw, or every theme.
There are so many good themes. I think the disco lab theme is also outstanding...

It looks better loaded in reaper than the screenshot. At least here anyway...


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Old 12-02-2011, 05:27 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by sonnie View Post
whut?
a) no. Please read my posts again. Dont generalize
b) thats right. I'm sorry for that. Just CoachZ is trolling around, and you are not huffy, just not very kind.
c) well, I am just a nickname for this community.
Apologies if I came across not very kind. I generally try to stay civil, but maybe don't always succeed . So, without intention to cook it up again I 'll explain what I meant:

First of all, even after re reading your posts I still read "I get eye cancer from all available themes I've seen".

Criticizing Reaper and all things about it is highly encouraged here and generally it's what most of us are doing all the time when online at this forum if we're not busy helping someone out.
So even if you got some adverse wind with your claim it does not mean that if anybody criticises Reaper everybody else's feathers will ruffle. I'd say that the bigger crowd in this thread has been talking very nice even after you quite vigorously stepped on lots of toes.

It also doesn't mean that everybody here lives in a small world, and thinks that Reaper is going to take the World-DAW-Domination (do you think that's a kind thing to say?). You're assuming quite a lot from one guy calling you a troll and maybe me posting a pic of grouchy smurf, because your posts made me think of him (and I do wager the claim that a smurf is almost as indicating toungue-in-cheek as a smiley). That's why I said you're generalizing blatantly.

You'll get a much better discussion by not setting things up as a sweeping offense. Promise.
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Old 12-02-2011, 05:44 PM   #54
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Quote:
you quite vigorously stepped on lots of toes.
I feel sorry for that, if its really sounded that hard.

Quote:
First of all, even after re reading your posts I still read "I get eye cancer from all available themes I've seen".
Even if I amuse Coachz with my words, I tried a lot of themes. But just the Rado-Theme in v3 and the default in v4 feeling good TO ME to work with.

Quote:
It also doesn't mean that everybody here lives in a small world, and thinks that Reaper is going to take the World-DAW-Domination (do you think that's a kind thing to say?). You're assuming quite a lot from one guy calling you a troll and maybe me posting a pic of grouchy smurf, because your posts made me think of him (and I do wager the claim that a smurf is almost as indicating toungue-in-cheek as a smiley). That's why I said you're generalizing blatantly.
Nah, he just didn't posted something with sense. Thats why I called him a troll.
DAW-War ist the most topic at ALL forums, which have to do sth. with any DAW, here, too (imo). Shouldn't i say something like that? It is more kidding than serious.

Quote:
You'll get a much better discussion by not setting things up as a sweeping offense. Promise.
Okay, lets have a try.
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Old 12-02-2011, 05:52 PM   #55
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I think its less a case of Reaper not having a 'professional' theme (subjective) and more having the tools that thememers need to materialize a 'professional' theme (again subjective).

The devs seem to have the philosophy of function before presentation, which is also why the midi editing in Reaper is still a headache and functional upgrades are added while small behaviour fixes are ignored. That being said, if Reaper could have an optional 'enhanced' layer for the theme which supports more advanced graphic outlays people could have the option to use the default theme or a more advanced theme where a theme designer could implement what they wanted.

I don't know what a professional theme is, is that like PT being a professional DAW? Regardless using Cubase the overall interface feels much more smooth and implemented to suit the product. Completely subjective I know, though I rarely see people criticize it's interface. Same with logic and PT 8+. I am sure if White Tie and his team had more control over what they could do, Reaper would look just as a good. Hopefully that is just a matter of time. Thanks for your hard work as usual.
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Old 12-03-2011, 02:02 AM   #56
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""- opinion on user interface is completely subjective"

I agree, but don't be fooled to think "designing interface is completely subjective".

All serious DAWs on a market have a clear interface no matter if I like the colors or not.
All are clear enough for the eyes. It's all about color, contrast, layout and element design and where you placing it.

This is still lacking somehow in Reaper, at list in the default theme. For me the contrast is wrong with the vague green color scheme that tend to be on a saturated color side witch is not a good thing in my opinion for designing a interface. No offence, but a good interface for a long hours working, must be more on a neutral color side. And this is a real concept. Think about Adobe products like Adobe Premiere, Photoshop etc. They all have a neutral environment to work with, for a reason.

Too much color in elements (such as buttons for ex.), distract and keep your mind busy. + the interface it will look to sparse. There is a composition witch helps with this, to fight with the flat aspect, when repetitive object are involved. It is not enough to achieve a good color scheme for a good and cohesive design interface. For me, there is still a lot of room left for improving the Reaper interface.

Reaborn is the best so far IMO. Too much color for my taste but has a style that's for sure. This is how a decent interface must be achieve, for a commercial look.

All other aspects of REAPER are mind blowing.
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Old 12-03-2011, 02:31 AM   #57
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Default What is a profesional looking daw ???????

Its only in recent years that DAW's have become "Flash" and full of "Eye candy"

Look at protools 6 and 7 and that never stopped anyone using it.

The problem is your putting form before function and more importantly striving for an asphetic developed by a team of very well paid designers to woe punters into shelling out hundreds of pounds for there latest revamped daw.

I know producers that use sony acid , ableton and many other programs with less distracting and in my opinion less "professional looking gui's" .

And please don't forget people do thing round hear for free around there day jobs in whatever spare time they can muster so please give them some kudos .

If you don't like it don't use it and don't bitch about it.
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:12 AM   #58
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Just dumped my post

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Old 12-03-2011, 04:04 AM   #59
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@ivansc:
I named you after your first question about it some names. Pictures are not necessary, because everyone should know the interfaces of the products, maybe google will help to remember.
Mind any higher-cost DAW, such as PT or Nuendo/Cubase (or Logic or any other) and look to the interface design.

Maybe Avatar44's post will bring some clarity:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar44 View Post
All serious DAWs on a market have a clear interface no matter if I like the colors or not.
All are clear enough for the eyes. It's all about color, contrast, layout and element design and where you placing it.

This is still lacking somehow in Reaper, at list in the default theme. For me the contrast is wrong with the vague green color scheme that tend to be on a saturated color side witch is not a good thing in my opinion for designing a interface. No offence, but a good interface for a long hours working, must be more on a neutral color side. And this is a real concept. Think about Adobe products like Adobe Premiere, Photoshop etc. They all have a neutral environment to work with, for a reason.

Too much color in elements (such as buttons for ex.), distract and keep your mind busy. + the interface it will look to sparse. There is a composition witch helps with this, to fight with the flat aspect, when repetitive object are involved. It is not enough to achieve a good color scheme for a good and cohesive design interface. For me, there is still a lot of room left for improving the Reaper interface.
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:25 AM   #60
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Having used Cubase for many many years, I much prefer Reaper's default over Cubases. As you can see, it is a matter of taste. It is art after all. For me, Cubase was always too much gray and blue. All the other great Reaper themes are just a bonus here.
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Old 12-03-2011, 06:12 AM   #61
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Having used Cubase for many many years, I much prefer Reaper's default over Cubases. As you can see, it is a matter of taste. It is art after all. For me, Cubase was always too much gray and blue. All the other great Reaper themes are just a bonus here.
If you say "prefer" it is a matter of taste indeed. But if you say Reaper default theme has a better design than Cubendo you are wrong. Cubendo wins here for clarity, style, contrast, layout. If I choose to open for the first time Cubendo, the things are clear to my eyes. Not the same with Reaper. Look at the Reaper official screenshot. It looks flat, cheap, and so unfriendly. In a way I like this, but this is a matter of my taste, cause this gives me the feel of a cult DAW, something too keep the outsiders apart. You dont't even guess what Reaper is capable for when you see for the first time how it looks. This is what I like in all Reaper versions default theme.

Themes like Reaborn bring somehow justice to all the users who search for a good looking theme for Reaper. But I wait for that day when people like White Tie or Nick Moritz, will give Reaper a true wonder. Something without sliced feel, something simple and minimal, with good graphic elements position, not so fancy-always-fighting color scheme, and the right contrast between blocks, grids, markers, selected items, timeline vs panels vs menu vs mixer, vs icons and so on...

And of course, make this to be an alternative, not default , we don't wanna make pro fools jump in massive blocks here. They must deserve Reaper for what Pro Tools it never was first, eye candy - last in their case especially.
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Old 12-03-2011, 06:38 AM   #62
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There's a 'truthiness' at play here, the idea that if your subjective tastes are not met then there is some objective error or incompetence as the cause. And I'm sure that can feel very real and legitimate, but that doesn't make it convincing to me. At all. Here's why:
  • Prevailing screen interface trends The easiest design to do is copying other design that conforms to existing trends. This is what a great number of my design colleagues do, day in day out. And while its extremely easy (the web is full of easy tutorials that even the rawest noob can follow) and staggeringly boring, I do not for one moment suggest that it is illegitimate. Far from it. I have web design friends who dream of breaking free of the all-encompassing Web2.0 look that is so canonised that it is essentially The Law ...but its easy, it works, it sells and it does the job very well indeed. The same applies to interface design right up to the moment it ceases to be the most functionally effective style, at which point we discard it without a moment's regret.
  • The value of an appealing overall look vs. the science of interface design Which could also be seen as 'Apparent vs. Real complexity'. Reaper is complex, and it has a lot of screen elements. Many people, myself included, might argue it has more screen elements than it actually needs. But the reality we are faced with is what it is. It is possible to disguise this complexity by making them all look like many occurrences of the same element, which can be extremely effective at giving a relaxed and approachable first impression, but it is a massive fail if it impedes functionality I once worked (briefly) on a synth project where there was a grid of about 30 buttons that all did different things but looked the same. It looked very neat and appealing and similar to a lot of other synths that were considered 'good' ...but completely ignored hard-won research on the functional advantages of control grading on user eye-searching. Theory said it would be time consuming to use, and a quick bit of user testing indicated that was hypothesis true. So there was the decision: instant appeal, apparent lack of complexity, neatness and 'on trend' kudos vs. user functionality gains. Which one was chosen? The one that would sell best. Can you guess which that was? We don't have that tension in Reaper because ignoring the sales and marketing departments is so very easy ...on account of them not existing. So its about the long-term functionality, the research, observing users at work. And I'm not only very proud that's how it is, I'll also take the Pepsi challenge on the effectiveness of our results. Any time.
  • Screen space Fancy trying your hand at Reaper theming? WALTER yourself a lot of screen space - much, much more than Reaper 3 or the V4default, and you will please many, many users. Why? Because graphically its better. Size and space yields clarity and comfort. In the V4 design process we compared our work with both Reaper 3 and lots and lots of DAWs for the use of space and number of elements. They all used much, much, much more space and generally had fewer elements in it. Case closed, right? No... if you give a mass of Reaper users the choice of 'looks better' vs. 'fit more stuff on the screen at once' they choose the latter, overwhelmingly, every time. In a community driven project you don't ignore direction that clear, no matter how much you or I might disagree with it. We're wrong.
  • Other DAWS as a paragon of design - I did this research, in a not particularly scientific way admittedly, watching new and experienced users of some other DAWs at work and asking them a few probing questions. Here's what I found: Logic is a very impressive piece of interface work. Cubase is good but breaking the 'cryptic icons without words trip us inexperienced users' rule does them no favours. ProTools is much, much worse, and really rather weak. If you don't know what you're doing (because you're new or its a function you don't use often) then you're lost. They break a lot of rules. A paragon of good interface design? You couldn't convince me of that even with access to torture equipment. You may LIKE it, you may be USED to it, but ...no. Nuh-uh. (FWIW how did Reaper fare in these comparisons? Well... lets just say we'll get there)
  • The themer might know all that, but not care - when I work on my personal themes, I always bring the whacky-ness to some degree. Why? because it amuses and interests me, which keeps me going through the boring bits. When I've finished, there maybe some bits of image or WALTER in there that someone else will find useful, and generally there'll always be a few people who find my silly bits to be a plus. That's a good result. As I've said before, I never do middle-of-the-road personal themes because a) we of course have to bring a good chunk of that in the default theme, and b) I find it a ho-hum and uninteresting style to work in. And anyway, lots of other themers love working in that style, and that's awesome, because it gets done. End user win. Do I care that it might be a 'better' way for me to do my personal themes? Nope, not even a little bit. And if you disagree, contact me for a full refund on the bugger-all you paid

TL/DR if you want to backup your (always perfectly legtimate and interesting) subjective taste with the notion that some objective science of 'good design' is in your corner, you discredit the very point you are trying to make, in the eyes of someone who might read the science as actually indicating the opposite. And that's probably not going to yield the end result you wish for.
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:26 AM   #63
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An ideal design for me is one that does NOT have everything clear. Things that are not used often should blend into the background. Hell, even Cubase has a hidden down arrow for opening lanes and it's not even visible, you have to KNOW where it is located. I like Reaper for that reason very much. I rarely change inputs on a track so having them under the meter is fine with me.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:35 AM   #64
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Professional= ones state of mind!
what is professional to you may not be professional to me!
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:36 AM   #65
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Just dumping my post

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Old 12-03-2011, 09:41 AM   #66
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Just dumping my post

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Old 12-03-2011, 09:51 AM   #67
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I discovered Reaper in version 2 and thought the GUI looked really weird, but I liked the program enough to tinker with it. I bought it when version 3 came out and liked the new GUI much better, although I was not totally in love with it. Yet even with themes, I seemed to cling to it.

I had come out of a "bad GUI relationship" with the newly redesigned Digital Performer 6.0, which made my eyes burn and smoke. I know poop when I see it.

Upgrading to Reaper 4.0, I am now happier and the version 3 GUI looks not so stellar where once I tolerated it. I guess it's all relative.

But with all these skins coming out (too many to list or remember), it's like an amusement park around here for my eyes. What I find ironic is that people bought Reaper during version 1, when the interface was - to my eyes - !@#$%!*
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:04 AM   #68
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There's a 'truthiness' at play here, the idea that if your subjective tastes are not met then there is some objective error or incompetence as the cause. And I'm sure that can feel very real and legitimate, but that doesn't make it convincing to me. At all. Here's why:
  • Prevailing screen interface trends The easiest design to do is copying other design that conforms to existing trends. This is what a great number of my design colleagues do, day in day out. And while its extremely easy (the web is full of easy tutorials that even the rawest noob can follow) and staggeringly boring, I do not for one moment suggest that it is illegitimate. Far from it. I have web design friends who dream of breaking free of the all-encompassing Web2.0 look that is so canonised that it is essentially The Law ...but its easy, it works, it sells and it does the job very well indeed. The same applies to interface design right up to the moment it ceases to be the most functionally effective style, at which point we discard it without a moment's regret.
  • The value of an appealing overall look vs. the science of interface design Which could also be seen as 'Apparent vs. Real complexity'. Reaper is complex, and it has a lot of screen elements. Many people, myself included, might argue it has more screen elements than it actually needs. But the reality we are faced with is what it is. It is possible to disguise this complexity by making them all look like many occurrences of the same element, which can be extremely effective at giving a relaxed and approachable first impression, but it is a massive fail if it impedes functionality I once worked (briefly) on a synth project where there was a grid of about 30 buttons that all did different things but looked the same. It looked very neat and appealing and similar to a lot of other synths that were considered 'good' ...but completely ignored hard-won research on the functional advantages of control grading on user eye-searching. Theory said it would be time consuming to use, and a quick bit of user testing indicated that was hypothesis true. So there was the decision: instant appeal, apparent lack of complexity, neatness and 'on trend' kudos vs. user functionality gains. Which one was chosen? The one that would sell best. Can you guess which that was? We don't have that tension in Reaper because ignoring the sales and marketing departments is so very easy ...on account of them not existing. So its about the long-term functionality, the research, observing users at work. And I'm not only very proud that's how it is, I'll also take the Pepsi challenge on the effectiveness of our results. Any time.
  • Screen space Fancy trying your hand at Reaper theming? WALTER yourself a lot of screen space - much, much more than Reaper 3 or the V4default, and you will please many, many users. Why? Because graphically its better. Size and space yields clarity and comfort. In the V4 design process we compared our work with both Reaper 3 and lots and lots of DAWs for the use of space and number of elements. They all used much, much, much more space and generally had fewer elements in it. Case closed, right? No... if you give a mass of Reaper users the choice of 'looks better' vs. 'fit more stuff on the screen at once' they choose the latter, overwhelmingly, every time. In a community driven project you don't ignore direction that clear, no matter how much you or I might disagree with it. We're wrong.
  • Other DAWS as a paragon of design - I did this research, in a not particularly scientific way admittedly, watching new and experienced users of some other DAWs at work and asking them a few probing questions. Here's what I found: Logic is a very impressive piece of interface work. Cubase is good but breaking the 'cryptic icons without words trip us inexperienced users' rule does them no favours. ProTools is much, much worse, and really rather weak. If you don't know what you're doing (because you're new or its a function you don't use often) then you're lost. They break a lot of rules. A paragon of good interface design? You couldn't convince me of that even with access to torture equipment. You may LIKE it, you may be USED to it, but ...no. Nuh-uh. (FWIW how did Reaper fare in these comparisons? Well... lets just say we'll get there)
  • The themer might know all that, but not care - when I work on my personal themes, I always bring the whacky-ness to some degree. Why? because it amuses and interests me, which keeps me going through the boring bits. When I've finished, there maybe some bits of image or WALTER in there that someone else will find useful, and generally there'll always be a few people who find my silly bits to be a plus. That's a good result. As I've said before, I never do middle-of-the-road personal themes because a) we of course have to bring a good chunk of that in the default theme, and b) I find it a ho-hum and uninteresting style to work in. And anyway, lots of other themers love working in that style, and that's awesome, because it gets done. End user win. Do I care that it might be a 'better' way for me to do my personal themes? Nope, not even a little bit. And if you disagree, contact me for a full refund on the bugger-all you paid

TL/DR if you want to backup your (always perfectly legtimate and interesting) subjective taste with the notion that some objective science of 'good design' is in your corner, you discredit the very point you are trying to make, in the eyes of someone who might read the science as actually indicating the opposite. And that's probably not going to yield the end result you wish for.
This is a half of the truth.

There was no mention that all design stuff should be done in totally collaboration with the developers of the product(like in the big companies, where the designers work next to the programmers).

The goal of the designer to make the program look nice, easy, understandable for the user. On the other hand the programmer has to make it work.
If the programmer cant embody the idea of the designer then they should find a compromise. During such collaboration the result will be much better.
In our case we observe the separate designers struggling with themselves and their creativity.

And this is one of numerous problems on the way to create professionally looking interface.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:15 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
There's a 'truthiness' at play here, the idea that if your subjective tastes are not met then there is some objective error or incompetence as the cause. And I'm sure that can feel very real and legitimate, but that doesn't make it convincing to me. At all.
This perfectly sums up this thread for me.

The default theme is not my personal favorite. But it is professional and well designed. If it was the only theme available, I would still be a happy Reaper user.

But I appreciate the power of WALTER and the wonderful themes that it makes possible. Very few DAWs (if any) can be customized this way. Some of the themes contributed for free to all Reaper users by very talented and creative theme makers rival the best available on any DAW anywhere.

I love Rado Vox Light (and Rado before it). I think ReaBORN shows great potential (lacking in flexibility at this time). Thank you to all who work hard to make these themes.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:54 AM   #70
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All I have to say is; where else do you find so many alternative skins?
Awesome work from all of you..
Fantastic choices for Reaper skins, and truly I can not understand the need to gripe, best to just let things evolve or make one for yourself if you really don't like what you see. All very well being a critic (yes I am one from time to time and we need them)however be proactive, if you can get out of your armchair and make one up yourself if Reaper skins are that disappointing for you or you blame them for your results.
I paint my house a different colour from time to time I don't blame the Iron maker for the visual and Reaper functions very well for me.

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Old 12-03-2011, 11:02 AM   #71
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Let's keep it simple:


When you visit a museum with lots of paintings on the wall, after a while, you decide (even if you are not an expert) that some works got your attention and you like more. This is your taste. This is taste.

This is not enough to establish the greatness of a real painting. For learn to read such a complex process like painting is, your taste (alone) it's not helping, not if you don't know something about "some rules". Only amateurs think there is no rules. Even in paintings, rules exist, that's why I gave you this examples.You must be a trained eye, you must learn to read this form of art. And this for a deep understanding. What you feel in the first moment is emotion is your first meeting with "something". This perception is very often amplified or demystified if you spend some time to learn about this "something".

Above all this, there is rules. Rules are something meant to teach us a common language. Without learning the rules first, we cannot build something

serious after. I'm not talking here about stupid rules, those that are leitmotifs in punk or rock'n'roll. I'm talking about knowledge.
Remember Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? If so, you understand what's the difference when you teach something with your ear and perception, and when you teach something with access to knowledge + your perception. A huge difference.

So, thinking you always reinvent the wheel is foolish. To think your taste is what you need to evaluate a good thing is dangerous and a limit for sure.

Always change the perspective, learn more is the key.

The level of beauty is subjective only when you are blind. Taste? Taste is a synonym to alter ego.

Vincent van Gogh is not great for me or you 'cause I like him or 'cause I think we can have some taste in common he is real great because he understand a whole form of art like no one else. He put a stone between past and the future in painting. If I "hate" him for not having my taste is he silly? No, I am. And if I don't know something about art I must think I speak the truth with such a non sense. It's my taste for God sake!

Taste is something, esthetics is more precise. We can't measure taste, but the human spirit need to measure esthetics and beauty! Yes it's hard, sometimes very hard to achieve, but it's a fact. Learning is the key. Learn the rules first to know how to brake it.



To see a good design interface is not a so abstract concept as you might think, or you try to convince you to think.Don't think hidden functions is the same with washed themes, poor contrast, flat looking, sliced feel.

A good interface is the shortcut for best workflow. Is a visual translator.
In Logic, Pro Tools, Cubendo, every workspace has it's own identity. Cristal clear.
The timeline is design to look not the same like tracks. The marker is a marker not a grid line, not a cursor.
All these with care, not throwing lines everywhere on the screen with the same feel.

All these aspects are not things "of taste" it's obviously (with Reaper) - something more primitive on a scale of understanding, or at list implementation. It's a real thing that Reaper evolve into something more appealing with time.

Stop talking about taste when you talk about esthetics, and good work done.
Stop thinking your mind is telling the truth.
If you break the good rules you become grotesque.
Don't think design theme is for everyone. This is wrong!

99% of Reaper theme are silly because of this way of thinking.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:09 AM   #72
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(grin) This just in from the Sonar forums:

Kinda puts things in a different light, doesnt it?

Quote:

should have been more clear about my ranting! It's not so much the DAW itself, as it's a capable daw if you want to record, or sketchpad ideas or mix on your own time. It works fantastic for that.

What I'm so bitter about, is that every single version they remove and changes features that affect the workflow making it harder and harder to accomplish what was easier in the previous version. I can't understand why they do that.

The latest tragedy is removing the phase flip and stereo/mono buttons from every single track and only making it visible on the prochannel sidebar thing, which I hide since I don't use it and it takes up too much real estate. So now there's no easy way to flip phase and between mono and stereo on tracks when mixing!

Also they changed the damn toolbar so that it's not resizable and if you add too many things, it simply grows bigger than the monitor and goes offscreen! On what planet do these programmers come from? No wonder that considering a number of firsts (first 64 bit DAW, for example) they still haven't been able to crack into the professional market.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:17 AM   #73
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Just dumping my post

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Old 12-03-2011, 12:57 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
(grin) This just in from the Sonar forums:

Kinda puts things in a different light, doesnt it?
As one coming from the SONAR camp, reluctantly I might add, it was not the mucking around with the GUI that ticked me off as much as the preventing me from undoing their work or allowing me to create a work around to it.

Anytime you put 2-3 more mouse clicks between me and what I want to see, I can guarantee you that I will be looking for an alternative.

Reaper gives me this ability.
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:29 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Orders will be obeyed without question, I AM RIGHT......

You are confusing your PERCEPTION of what represents good design and good workflow with The Rules.
Where is my statement in this direction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Leave aside that wars have been fought in the past over the right for an individual to have a right to his own opinion, does it not occur to you that just maybe you are not in a position to dictate to others what they should think?
The only thing I try to convince you is: a good design is something more rigorous than you think when you are superficial and your measure is your taste. Even when you are a good designer this is not enough. Like in a audio mastering process if you prefer. Don't be angry, and don't interpret my words with human rights crap. I don't dictate you nothing. You can sleep your life and ignore me. I don't speak for everyone. I have an opinion just like any other on this forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
And before you jump in with a knee-jerk "I am right because...." response, try looking at what you have been expressing here as if someone else tried to do it to you.
Again this is not me, this your mind tricking you...
The reason for this of course is my post but I have a feeling:
my words reverberate something bad in you. Could it be "The Rules" (the one you typed with capitals?). The rules I was talking about was about knowledge, about learning to do things right. Nothing more. Can you accept there is more you could see with your eyes, if not only taste is your guide?
I'm wasting my time with you...
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Old 12-03-2011, 04:01 PM   #76
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Just dumping my post

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Old 12-03-2011, 05:12 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Avatar44 View Post
Let's keep it simple:

....When you visit a museum with lots of paintings on the wall, after a while, you decide (even if you are not an expert) that some works got your attention and you like more. This is your taste. This is taste.

This is not enough to establish the greatness of a real painting. For learn to read such a complex process like painting is, your taste (alone) it's not helping, not if you don't know something about "some rules". Only amateurs think there is no rules. Even in paintings, rules exist, that's why I gave you this examples.You must be a trained eye, you must learn to read this form of art. And this for a deep understanding. What you feel in the first moment is emotion is your first meeting with "something". This perception is very often amplified or demystified if you spend some time to learn about this "something".

Above all this, there is rules. Rules are something meant to teach us a common language. Without learning the rules first, we cannot build something

The level of beauty is subjective only when you are blind. Taste? Taste is a synonym to alter ego.

To see a good design interface is not a so abstract concept as you might think, or you try to convince you to think.Don't think hidden functions is the same with washed themes, poor contrast, flat looking, sliced feel.

A good interface is the shortcut for best workflow. Is a visual translator.
In Logic, Pro Tools, Cubendo, every workspace has it's own identity. Cristal clear.
The timeline is design to look not the same like tracks. The marker is a marker not a grid line, not a cursor.
All these with care, not throwing lines everywhere on the screen with the same feel.

All these aspects are not things "of taste" it's obviously (with Reaper) - something more primitive on a scale of understanding, or at list implementation. It's a real thing that Reaper evolve into something more appealing with time.

Stop talking about taste when you talk about esthetics, and good work done.
Stop thinking your mind is telling the truth.
If you break the good rules you become grotesque.
Don't think design theme is for everyone. This is wrong!......
I think there's a lot of truth in this words. Some people study art and design to understand this rules and I think those Guys rather can make professional designs (relating to professional themes).
But Reaper gives the possibilities everyone to create themes. And that's a good idea, then all people can be creative if they want.
And there are also nature talents
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Old 12-03-2011, 05:18 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
(grin) This just in from the Sonar forums:

Kinda puts things in a different light, doesnt it?
They destroyed the midi workflow in X1 then started saying how their new one is so much 'better' and users just need to 'adjust' their workflow to the same way Cakewalk likes to work.

They seem to have forgotten that was customizable in 8.5 so you could do as you wish.


Total groupthink failure.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:25 AM   #79
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Step 1.) Download theme "Unempty Minima 73"

Step 2.) Install Unempty Minima 73

Step 3.) Do stuff in REAPER.

Step 4.) Buy yourself something nice. You just made a terrific life choice!
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:33 AM   #80
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+1

A large part of why I am here - well that and the audio engine stopped working more than it actually worked!

Funnily enough, a huge part of why I still stick to my elderly Amiga computer for MIDI editing is the way it suits my workflow and a reluctance to adapt to something else that doesn't feel like a comfortable old pair of shoes.
Even after several years of using Sonar for everything else, I never did feel comfortable with their layout for MIDI editing.
But at the time I bought it, it was the closest thing to Bars n Pipes out there.
Only over time it steadily moved away from being the next best thing and became the least bad alternative.
When Reaper came along I jumped on board mostly because of the potential flexibility, which I still see as both Reapers' curse and Reapers' blessing.

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