^If people put near as much time into better performances and getting it right at the source (which makes a far, far bigger difference), we'd have a lot more better sounding recordings out there.
More pearls of wisdom from the man!!!
Doesn't matter how much speed or bandwidth you have, shit sounds like shit.
Just glad my old rig doesn't support Thunderbolt or USB4, I'd be going bat shit crazy trying to figure all this out.
But preach on my brothers!!! It's all very interesting.
I disagree with that supposed 'pearl of wisdom'. bad gear, especially bad gear with unrepeatable trouble, wastes tons of time. If people bought quality gear from the start (i.e. systems with guaranteed data delivery) then there would be far less wasted time & less aggravation.
what actually happens in real life is pseudo-marketing which biases consumer preference for a bad system over a good system, closely tied into lack of fundamental understanding of underlying technologies (and the understanding which also gets harder as technology gets more complex **).
so then people buy a USB interface and wonder why there are audio glitches due to "buffering problems" and waste a lot of time & resources trying to "fix their system" (aka work around the inherent problems in the technology they purchased). Later they still compliment themselves "but I saved a bunch of money on this system".
** it's even too complex for me to easily follow recently, the thunderbolt spec is huge, USB as well, it would be a full-time job to dig from top layer all the way down to the physical layer.
Bad software, OTOH is probably what you're referring to. I wouldn't worry about TB or USB, but more about stability and longevity of drivers.
I loved my Sound Devices USB Pre. But the manufacturer refused to update the firmware loader. Even after hacking it to keep it running, I had to let it go.
It's going too fast. No time to test and before you know it, new gear needs to be sold. All adding to that infernal pile of garbage that will kill us, some day.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
Bad software, OTOH is probably what you're referring to. I wouldn't worry about TB or USB, but more about stability and longevity of drivers.
Another excellent point.
I use to run into this all the time when I was in IT. Hardware is never the issue, it's always about the software.
A lot of the bad decisions I saw made during my career were by people focusing too much on hardware specs, the bits, the bytes, that kind of stuff, and overlooking the most important issue. What are you trying to do, and what software best fits those needs.
The upside is the software will dictate your hardware requirements, the downside though, as you point out Cyrano, is the software will also render your hardware obsolete.
Perfect example is my case. If all the interfaces out there right now were either Thunderbolt or USB4, I'd have to shit can my rig and build a new one.
Hardware is never the issue, it's always about the software.
A lot of the bad decisions I saw made during my career were by people focusing too much on hardware specs
sorry but actually it tooootally misses my point, which was: the limitations are in the PHY. not in software! it is critical to understand that the problems are endemic of the compromised design in the silicon itself.
software can only do so much to overcome limitations of silicon. software can't fix data which is sent too late, after the fact, in a real time low-latency recording system! it is physically impossible within the realms of the known universe [until time-space warping becomes desktop technology].
you can _not_ count on "oh there's plenty of bandwidth for it" when data delivery must be guaranteed to be on-time... and then something random on the system happens, like hmmm, a periodic anti-virus scan on windows machine. (<- cheesy example)
Yeah the best solution is to not use either one. Because better technology will come out in a few years. Then the gear will be obsolescent anyways, a waste of cash.
Cassette recorders are good. They don't drop samples. Who needs more than 4 tracks anyway. Who needs more than 640 kBytes of memory.
Computer interfacing is insanity. We have decades worth of audio interfaces now (and tons of other computer interfacing gear) which become 'obsolete' simply because of connector/protocol changes every few years. Do the analog frontends still amplify? Yep. Do the converters still convert? Yep. Do the cases still hold it all together and provide controls and i/o? Yep.
Throw that all in the trash because connector/protocol Z is the new thing. Nope.
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Yeah the best solution is to not use either one. Because better technology will come out in a few years. Then the gear will be obsolescent anyways, a waste of cash.
Cassette recorders are good. They don't drop samples. Who needs more than 4 tracks anyway. Who needs more than 640 kBytes of memory.
Heh. I had an 8 track cassette recorder once (Tascam).
I couldn't accomplish with it what I can now with a fast CPU, SSD RAID 0, and yes, USB 2.0.
Hardware definitely improves all the time. However, at the moment, I can do anything I would ever conceivably want to do with no drop-outs, clicks and pops, or need for fine tuning, using an "obsolete" USB 2.0 interface. I know it handles a couple of dozen simultaneous channels at 48k/24 bit just fine, and I never actually record more than 16 simultaneous tracks (and I'll bet not too many people do).
If I ever find that USB 2.0 is keeping me from doing what I need to do, I'll look into a faster transfer technology. For the time being, I'm going to relax about that and put my efforts into making sure that I'm recording stuff that sounds good.
So I think Karbo was right. There's no need to push to the bleeding edge all the time, just because it's there. Lots of musicians get distracted by gear and forget to focus on making good sounding music.
I am currently running 48 channels of I/O at 64 samples on a pair of MOTU 2408 MK II's from 1999
Justin is still using an RME HDSP9652 from 2001 that I sent him way back when
With digital stuff it usually is the case that newer is better, but sometimes the really good stuff keeps being good
I think it's also a thing that the early days of interfaces were more pro level models. Now it has matured into where you have budget or even toy-like facsimile products out there. A pro device from 10 years ago will in fact run circles around a modern toy. Better analog stages. Lower baseline latency and stability at low latency.
Still using 2 MOTU 828mk3 interfaces here for both the live sound setup and studio work and then an Apogee Rosetta 800 in the studio only. All firewire 400 technology. If or when I need to upgrade or expand, I might just go to network audio at this point instead of thunderbolt. I also have a computer that can't be expanded to thunderbolt but has at least another 10 years of relevance baring some innovation coming around the corner (2009/2010 Mac Pro). I think network audio is the way forward.
And what's up with the port debacle? Thunderbolt is really switching to that USB-C port? Another little wiggly port that's just a little bit more wiggly than thunderbolt itself was (which was used for display port before that) which was just a little bit more wiggly than firewire 800 was. Meanwhile the ethernet port gives a solid stable ker-click and locks itself in.
Tascam all the way! actually i would be tempted to use a 4-track cassette recorder at some point.. if new cassettes still existed (I thought the last mag tape factory closed?)
this guy makes 2 points (assuming metal tapes are used):
1. cassettes "nearly approaches CD quality" *when Dolby-S is used
2. tascam recorded at 2x tape speed "likely sound similar to reel-to-reel"
so yeah. just say 'no' to computer obsolescence! go analog!
it would probably even sound better than digital for specific genres (like punk rock) - natural magnetic track bleed and wobbly tape speed, one-take recording no edits so all mistakes preserved, etc.
Last edited by superblonde.org; 09-01-2019 at 10:58 AM.
Growing up with cassette 4-tracks, I don't see myself going back - I think I have a box with about 300 tapes in the closet. Not sure I'm buying that guys claims though, they simply aren't very sonically good. FWIW, many 4-tracks ran at higher speeds than 7.5"/sec but that had it's trade offs and the individual track size on tape that small didn't help things - I had one that didn't so I increased the smaller pulley diameter to speed it up.
It's not that I wouldn't use one for a special effect (maybe) but otherwise, the entire process and quality sort of sucks in comparison. Conversely, being that limited will teach someone far more about getting good recordings than any DAW with a million plugins any day of the week.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 09-01-2019 at 09:27 AM.
I had a Tascam 234 rack mount 3 3/4 IPS unit with DBX dynamic range compression/expansion and while it was one of the best cassette based units at the time, it was in no way on a par to any computer based recording hardware/software I've used.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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I think I had a 234 (non-rack) for a number of years. I coined a lot of shitty sounding recordings on that thing. I have some mix downs somewhere but most were from writing and band practice.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
I didn't get involved with recording until the digital age, but it seems to me one of the big advantages of tape recording was how it forced the musicians to get their parts right before the engineer hit the record button.
Must have really been a huge pain back then to try to fix mistakes on tape.
And what's up with the port debacle? Thunderbolt is really switching to that USB-C port?
yes there will be One Connector To Rule Them All (until a new connector arrives which replaces them again.) I predict having one connector for both TB and USB will be more confusing to consumers because only the TB features will be available so people will plug devices into USB hosts and wonder why TB isnt performing well. People will wonder "why can't I get Apple-quality TB from my cheap PC with USB since it's the same type of plug??"
The other huge benefit of USB-C connector is that it can carry higher power and higher voltages. (finally!) Default is still 5VDC (and now up to 3A) but there is a 20VDC option at up to 5A. Finally say goodbye to additional wall warts? This would be perfect for piano keyboards for example which are 12VDC... use the USBC port for power.. (assuming the hub is a beefy one which can supply the requested power, and the device is built to request & use it too)
The USBC connector also has analog in/out for audio signals (2 in, 2 out), aka, it provides TRRS type signals. (But will see if any manufacturer actually makes equipment to allow that?) Anyway at a minimum it means that USBC connector could function as an analog headphone/headset-mic jack. Which means that a future TB Focusrite unit could have a built-in "Talkback mic and group speaker" ? who knows what it will be used for other than the obvious, game console headsets..
you could even...build & plug in an analog cassette recorder as a TB device 8-D 8-D
there's a kickstarter for the near future.
I think I had a 234 (non-rack) for a number of years. I coined a lot of shitty sounding recordings on that thing. I have some mix downs somewhere but most were from writing and band practice.
I striped track 4 with clock on mine and then used it with computer based midi sequencing so I could record unlimited midi plus three tracks of audio, and it all play together in sync to mix down to a stereo machine.
This was between the time that I sold my 1" Ampex studio recorder and when computer software for midi and audio finally was available. I knew tape was going to be obsolete and got out of the 1" machine at the exact right moment while it still had value, and it was only about a year till I got my first DAW software that would let me record both audio and midi on my PC.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I didn't get involved with recording until the digital age, but it seems to me one of the big advantages of tape recording was how it forced the musicians to get their parts right before the engineer hit the record button.
Must have really been a huge pain back then to try to fix mistakes on tape.
Hehe, I was a master at punching in flawlessly on tape with my 1" Ampex machine. The bands I recorded for hire got lazy in my studio knowing I could get them into and out of record in the exact spot where they blew it. Since I recorded using multi-track tape between 1974 and around 1995 when I sold my last studio recorder, I totally still work the same way and as a result, use almost none of the bells and whistles that REAPER offers.
I still do punch ins, but with clips that can overlap (I don't use takes) and live on the same track. When I need to do a punch now, I just punch in a measure before I need to be playing, and have plenty of time to come in. Then I can slip edit the clip down to just the recorded material.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Justin is still using an RME HDSP9652 from 2001 that I sent him way back when
I am still using my RME HDSP9652 purchased in 2003 everyday with the lowest latencies even with a bunch of UA plugs on a custom built computer by moi from 2010 and I still haven't had to overclock that sucka.
yes there will be One Connector To Rule Them All (until a new connector arrives which replaces them again.) I predict having one connector for both TB and USB will be more confusing to consumers because only the TB features will be available so people will plug devices into USB hosts and wonder why TB isnt performing well. People will wonder "why can't I get Apple-quality TB from my cheap PC with USB since it's the same type of plug??"
The other huge benefit of USB-C connector is that it can carry higher power and higher voltages. (finally!) Default is still 5VDC (and now up to 3A) but there is a 20VDC option at up to 5A. Finally say goodbye to additional wall warts? This would be perfect for piano keyboards for example which are 12VDC... use the USBC port for power.. (assuming the hub is a beefy one which can supply the requested power, and the device is built to request & use it too)
The USBC connector also has analog in/out for audio signals (2 in, 2 out), aka, it provides TRRS type signals. (But will see if any manufacturer actually makes equipment to allow that?) Anyway at a minimum it means that USBC connector could function as an analog headphone/headset-mic jack. Which means that a future TB Focusrite unit could have a built-in "Talkback mic and group speaker" ? who knows what it will be used for other than the obvious, game console headsets..
you could even...build & plug in an analog cassette recorder as a TB device 8-D 8-D
there's a kickstarter for the near future.
Seems good. Unfortunately, most of these features are optional. For a reason. A phone can hardly supply any real power, fi...
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
Seems good. Unfortunately, most of these features are optional. For a reason. A phone can hardly supply any real power, fi...
maybe everyone will have pedalboards with pedal-power units as the USBC power hub. yeah pedalboard for their phones, lol.
because, everyone needs to plug a USBC hard drive and a piano keyboard into their phone.
If I remember right, USB 1.0 was supposed to have analog capability too. one of the features that got axed in order to focus on the main priority (digital block transfers). one of the main original selling points of USB was supposed to be to eliminate analog cables to the computer desktop speakers (never quite happened that way though).
maybe everyone will have pedalboards with pedal-power units as the USBC power hub. yeah pedalboard for their phones, lol.
because, everyone needs to plug a USBC hard drive and a piano keyboard into their phone.
It's a different world, but it's also still a computer.
Quote:
If I remember right, USB 1.0 was supposed to have analog capability too. one of the features that got axed in order to focus on the main priority (digital block transfers). one of the main original selling points of USB was supposed to be to eliminate analog cables to the computer desktop speakers (never quite happened that way though).
That was USB 1.1...
USB 1.0 was developed by Intel. Intel wanted license fees. That's when the USB consortium was founded. They developed the license-free 1.1, which was basically the same, but license free. As far I can recall, there was no analog on USB 'till USB-C and USB4. But the specs for 1.1 and 2 are gone from the consortium's site.
Quote:
Go retro, bring back banana plugs?
I seem to think analog synth setups still use banana plugs for CV?
There's nothing wrong with banana plugs, as long as you buy decent ones, like Hirschmann. Nearly indestructible. And if it is for a heavy current load, only XLR can rival it. Jacks for speakers, fi, aren't really useful anymore, with today's kilowatt amps. Both XLR and banana plugs support up to 16 amps. AFAIK, there's no current spec for jack plugs.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
It's a Carvin MX1688. It had 16 inputs, 8 submaster outputs, and stereo master outs. Frank Zappa was using them in his mobile recording studio truck back then, so I figured if they were good enough for him, they were probably good enough for me.
Here's a used one on Ebay. Much less than I paid for mine!
Thanks. Virtually absent, this side of the pond, unfortunately, otherwise I might go hunting for one. Like the way it looks
And if Frank used it...
It was a very clean sounding mixer. The drums in the drum booth from that pic was this kit, which was mic'd with 13 mics. That left me 3 channels on the board for bass and a couple of guitars while doing the initial tracking.
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Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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DDA wasn't around for very long. Dave Dearden and his pal Gareth Davies came from Soundcraft. They were Soundcraft's main mixer designers until they started DDA.
Later on, they sold the company to Telex Group. And Telex group ruined the brand. Dave and Gareth formed Audient and started over.
Telex sold the UK factory and ordered a new mixer from Dynacord with the worst name ever: Interface.
Since it looked like a Soundcraft Delta (with a few added features), Telex group got sued in the US as they released the mixer under the Electrovoice brand. Cost them a million $ or so. The net result was that EV no longer sold mixers and the DDA brand was done. That was somewhere around 2000.
While it's laid out like a Delta, construction is better. Better boards (glass-fiber, not Pertinax), better electronics, LED metering everywhere, larger PSU. And some weird features. The stereo channels have mic pres and an M/S button. There were options like sp/dif inputs, phono preamps. The only bad thing is that the PSU has real noisy fans.
These were labelled as DDA, Dynacord, Electrovoice and a few other brands. All made by Dynacord in Germany. Everything before the Interface was UK built. The UK factory was acquired by Klark Technic, I think.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
DDA wasn't around for very long. Dave Dearden and his pal Gareth Davies came from Soundcraft. They were Soundcraft's main mixer designers until they started DDA.
Later on, they sold the company to Telex Group. And Telex group ruined the brand. Dave and Gareth formed Audient and started over.
Telex sold the UK factory and ordered a new mixer from Dynacord with the worst name ever: Interface.
Since it looked like a Soundcraft Delta (with a few added features), Telex group got sued in the US as they released the mixer under the Electrovoice brand. Cost them a million $ or so. The net result was that EV no longer sold mixers and the DDA brand was done. That was somewhere around 2000.
While it's laid out like a Delta, construction is better. Better boards (glass-fiber, not Pertinax), better electronics, LED metering everywhere, larger PSU. And some weird features. The stereo channels have mic pres and an M/S button. There were options like sp/dif inputs, phono preamps. The only bad thing is that the PSU has real noisy fans.
These were labelled as DDA, Dynacord, Electrovoice and a few other brands. All made by Dynacord in Germany. Everything before the Interface was UK built. The UK factory was acquired by Klark Technic, I think.
It amazes me how a company with a great product can be swept up by some huge corporate conglomerate that has no idea what they have and then end up killing it as a result.
I had forgotten until I was looking at the Ebay pic of that Carvin board that it also had a separate 8 input submix for use while tracking so you could play back what you had recorded without putting any of it on the primary 16 input channels. It was basic volume, pan, two FX sends, and two monitor sends. Then when all the tracking was complete, you'd throw the playback onto the first 8 primary inputs where you'd also get EQ, trim, and some other things that were missing on the tracking playback channels.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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It amazes me how a company with a great product can be swept up by some huge corporate conglomerate that has no idea what they have and then end up killing it as a result.
Just like when CBS bought Fender and AMF bought Harley Davidson.
The bean counters take over and quality and workmanship goes down the tubes.
But karma came along and now Samsung has bought Harman. Maybe because of their large portfolio of famous ruined brands?
And, yes, some of these old analog boards have a lot of smart routing . That's how I use my DDA, but the Carving is a bit smaller (judging from the pic) and has an extra row of faders. Mine's only got 4 group outputs. Enough for my use, but we always want more, do we
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In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
I have some mix downs somewhere but most were from writing and band practice.
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