I like your attitude, all these composers worthy of study. Many guitar players favour Bach and Mozart but the Bass study of all classic composers can be very useful if youre guitarist/keybrdst composer.
Beethoven, hands down. Flat broke, stone deaf, knowing he was reaching the end of his life, he had every opportunity to be a bitter bastard. Instead, he sat down and wrote one of the greatest pieces of music ever composed, dedicated to the unity of mankind.
The final movement to his 9th symphony is as close to perfect a piece of music as you're going to find.
Caude Debussey is my personal favorite, though, because he was a straight pimp.
Location: United States of Europe, Germany, Mönchengladbach
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its music. its well made music. its great music. it is good music, I consider.
when I listen to music I make no difference from what time it is. every of those composers had a very different approach and a very different attitude, just like every composer from RockAndPopMusicLand has, assumed he or she or it is any good.
and its worth to study or have a closer look at all good composers. if someone has made a good piece of art and you want to make art you should always have a close look at those that preceeded you. thats the way art is evolving. its not a matter of like or not like.
if someone thinks that he doesnt get a grip on special things, as here classical compositions, well, thats not a problem I think. I dont get a grip on Jazz. there is so many other msuic, I think one can make music and art without knowing everything and without liking everything. no problem.
We listened to Peter and the Wolf when we were little and didn't know classical from anything else.. just music.. I like to listen to things I don't know or understand and feel that just being exposed to new things can have an effect on how I night create something of my own. Holst's The Planets was an easy one to get into.
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
For a long time, Mozart was my favourite classical composer. I was involved in a theatre production of Amadeus in the 90s and designed a multi stage, surround sound PA system for that production.
These days, top of my list is George Frideric Handel.
did these composers i mentioned composed with the mindset of their music to be played through symphony orchestras? i don't even know if these orchestras existed back then?
or did they compose with the mindset of their music to be played through piano?
when i listen classical music on youtube etc its with all kind of instruments, but i'm just wondering if back then was only meant to be played through piano by them?
did these composers i mentioned composed with the mindset of their music to be played through symphony orchestras? i don't even know if these orchestras existed back then?
or did they compose with the mindset of their music to be played through piano?
when i listen classical music on youtube etc its with all kind of instruments, but i'm just wondering if back then was only meant to be played through piano by them?
Bach and Vivaldi were earlier than the others. Piano was just starting then, harpsichord was on the way out. But there were already small orchestras, and they wrote specifically for orchestra.
Beethoven and Mozart wrote some pieces for piano but other pieces for full orchestra, as we know orchestra today. After them, orchestras got a little bigger, in the time of Brahms, Wagner, and Tchaikovsky.
did these composers i mentioned composed with the mindset of their music to be played through symphony orchestras? i don't even know if these orchestras existed back then?
or did they compose with the mindset of their music to be played through piano?
when i listen classical music on youtube etc its with all kind of instruments, but i'm just wondering if back then was only meant to be played through piano by them?
Mozart wrote opera, primarily. Most of his body of work is there. Beethoven wrote mostly Symphony. Bach wrote church music. Debussy wrote so he could sleep with your wife.
so did they have the players next to them as they were composing and they were saying to them you play this....and now you play this over him and lets see if it sounds nice?
how could they hear how something sounds connected without that being multitracked
i guess one way now that i'm thinking is playing the melody and singing the other same time?
also i guess left hand...one instrument.....right hand, another instrument, and voice another?
Location: United States of Europe, Germany, Mönchengladbach
Posts: 2,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil
None of 'em were bad on piano.
Bach was a sorcerer... Good way to put it.
yep, a sorcerer and a great mathematician and the inventor of MIDI ... errm ... the well temperatured tuning. and synth guru ... errm ... church organ guru. (for the younger in the audience: a full blown church organ was (and is) kind of mechanical synthesizer with vast lots of presets. yes, they were the first plugins, because the plugged at first in one of the AAWs (Analog Audio Workstation) at that time: churches. no, there was no portable installation.)
if you ever have the chance - bad for all not europeans - to attend an church organ concert with a nice organ player in a decent church with a decent organ: go and get that! after that you have a completely revised opinion on loudness, rich sound, earthquakes, frequency response and dynamics.
so thats Bach. ah, and try to get a grasp on "the well termepratured piano", the bible of what you can do with 12 notes. learn what a fugue is and use that music to steal from.
how could they hear how something sounds connected without that being multitracked
The music they wrote follows conventions where it's relatively easy to predict how it will sound like when the orchestra plays it. IMHO there wasn't much invention going on during Bach, Mozart and Beethoven etc in terms of harmony and orchestration.(*) The melodies/thematic material was more important. Things got a bit more exciting during the 19th century and especially 20th century.
(*) There are exceptions of course. For example in the finale of Beethoven's 9th symphony, the main melody is first played by the double basses/cellos of the orchestra, quite an unusual decision, considering the first violins play the melodies in most cases in the symphonic music during that period.
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(*) There are exceptions of course. For example in the finale of Beethoven's 9th symphony, the main melody is first played by the double basses/cellos of the orchestra, quite an unusual decision, considering the first violins play the melodies in most cases in the symphonic music during that period.
And then to play this thing with only the tonic and the dominant chord - well, almost - gives food for thought. There's a parallel chord in it somewhere, and the usual turn with the dominant's dominant... but that's about it - easy as pie. Just major and minor chords, triads... Marvellous music.
There is quite a big difference in styles between some of the composers mentioned, since they lived in different time frames. The music changed very significantly. Bach and Vivaldi are considered a late Baroque, Mozart the early Classics, Beethoven late classics-early-mid Romantics. Verdi mid-romantics, Strauss late romantics (afaik), Brahms late romantics. BTW out of major "pre-modern" names, you forgot Chopin who also belongs to mid-romantics.
Due to these differences, usually people have a clear preference to some of them rather than others. Personally I like polyphonic music rather than monophonic, and I prefer the "magical" mathematical thinking (Baroque) to elevator music (Classics) or to the game of colors and volumes (Romantics). No offense to Chopin lovers meant :-) So my preference goes to Bach, and then straight to late modernism with music like Prokofiev and Shostakovich. I can have some mid-modernists too, like Scoenberg and Alban Berg. I like some post-modern and contemporary "classical" music like Philip Glass and Arvo Part. And I love Jazz.
Regarding Bach specifically, he was many composers in one skin, his church music is whole different genre than his orchestral music, which is yet distinct to his organ music, which is different from his harpsichord music. Which is again different from his chamber music. And then you have more genre distinctions inside everyone of these. I love much of his harpsichord music (performed on the piano by Glenn Gould), I love some of his vocal music, particularly the Mess in H-mol and the big Passions (Mattheus and John), sometimes I feel like listening to some of his organ music.
As to what had been invented during those eras, I can't agree at all with Xenakios that there was not much going on. This is entirely wrong, it might seem so to us, since their music is so familiar and foundational to us that we tend to assume it was just this to them. But in fact, they had been inventing all the time and many had been considered "on the cutting edge" at their time. Bach in particular more or less "invented" the modern harmony (much of this was bringing together already existing bits, but nevertheless). Baroque was perhaps the most invention-rich era in music history, surpassed only by 20-th century.
What Bach did not invent was equal temperation (sorry, Whiteaxxxe). While he did have an impact on its adoption.
As to how they composed their music, there were indeed well-established harmonic and structural patterns and instrumental "palette" as mentioned by Xenakios, yet this was far from simply filling in those patterns. They did in fact hear the music in their minds while composing. And contemporary composers do the same, at least the better ones. This is a skill that takes many years to develop and only a person who devotes their whole life to composing can normally get to the point when they can compose the whole symphony without playing a single note.
Bach and Vivaldi were earlier than the others. Piano was just starting then, harpsichord was on the way out. But there were already small orchestras, and they wrote specifically for orchestra.
Beethoven and Mozart wrote some pieces for piano but other pieces for full orchestra, as we know orchestra today. After them, orchestras got a little bigger, in the time of Brahms, Wagner, and Tchaikovsky.
piano was just starting then?
can you give me more info on this...was piano invented after string/wind instruments? (i'll search for it oK :P)
the invention of the modern piano is credited to Bartolomeo Cristofori (1655–1731)
The first violins date from the 1500s.
so piano was kind of a new instrument in that age.....did they even include a piano in orchestras?? maybe they just composed to it?
i just find it a bit weird these great composers to be composing for orchestras and not for piano exclusively..especially back then, could they even communicate that age? (ok ok..) now i see piano as something they would gather their ideas upon after that quick search.
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil
His Concerto for Trumpet is one of my all time favorite pieces of music, both to play and listen to.
Another trumpet player?
Trumpet was my first instrument and the one I did my AMEB (Australian Music Examinations Board) practical music examinations on. One of those exams included Handel so that was my introduction to his music. That was around 1984/5 from memory.
People had to go to concert halls to actually listen to music!!!
no radio...no tv...its unbelievable
so unless there were some instruments at home...or something, some people were actually not even exposed to music i guess? its incredible...
Not just classical music, until the early mid 20th century music distribution was predominantly paper based: http://www.songwritershalloffame.org...its/eras/C1002 if you wanted to hear something you bought the sheet music and played it at home yourself.
Not just classical music, until the early mid 20th century music distribution was predominantly paper based: http://www.songwritershalloffame.org...its/eras/C1002 if you wanted to hear something you bought the sheet music and played it at home yourself.
its music. its well made music. its great music. it is good music, I consider.
when I listen to music I make no difference from what time it is. every of those composers had a very different approach and a very different attitude, just like every composer from RockAndPopMusicLand has, assumed he or she or it is any good.
and its worth to study or have a closer look at all good composers. if someone has made a good piece of art and you want to make art you should always have a close look at those that preceeded you. thats the way art is evolving. its not a matter of like or not like.
if someone thinks that he doesnt get a grip on special things, as here classical compositions, well, thats not a problem I think. I dont get a grip on Jazz. there is so many other msuic, I think one can make music and art without knowing everything and without liking everything. no problem.
your favourite composer of those? any particular reason?
Thank you
LOL - you're funny.
You should listen to some of them and see which you like most. It's like asking, "which should I prefer, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones?"
I'm very much into classical music, I don't have a 'favorite' composer per se but as of late I'm totally into Bruckner, his 9th symphony especially. That is the epitomy of the late 19th century Austrian / German romantic music. Never before or since has there been anything quite as profound in my opinion.
But I can - and often do - listen to Bach all day long, e.g. the Welltempered Klavier performed by Glenn Gould. I can pop in one of the CDs, put it on repeat, and play it for 8 hours straight.
But I can - and often do - listen to Bach all day long, e.g. the Welltempered Klavier performed by Glenn Gould. I can pop in one of the CDs, put it on repeat, and play it for 8 hours straight.
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil
Here's another favorite. Haydn's.
Absolutely superb! Beautiful performance by the orchestra and Alison Balsom. Girl can play!! I'd love to hear a duet between her and James Morrison.
Do you know much about the trumpet she was playing? The whole section where the main tuning slide on a Bb instrument is was completely missing! I'm guessing it is possibly an Eb trumpet? I didn't know there was such a thing until now. That would work well playing Sax section parts. No need to transpose on the fly.
It has been many years since I played trumpet seriously. In the late 80s and early 90s, I was a member of the Geelong Concert Band and our musical director/conductor was the squadron leader of the Royal Australian Air Force concert band, Mike Butcher. He worked us hard but we truly appreciated it.
I remember the first time I had to play a solo in concert. That was a combined concert we did with the Air Force band to a full house at the Geelong Performing Arts Center and that night I was so nervous that I had a natural vibrato that I don't normally have!!!
I don't know whether the full house made me more nervous or playing with 150 other musicians on stage but it was an experience I will never forget!
We also did a concert on stage at the Sydney Opera House in 1988 for the national band championships which, much to our delight, we won! That was another experience I will never forget.
Here's a photo I took on the tour bus of our trophies from that competition:
Do you know much about the trumpet she was playing? The whole section where the main tuning slide on a Bb instrument is was completely missing! I'm guessing it is possibly an Eb trumpet? I didn't know there was such a thing until now. That would work well playing Sax section parts. No need to transpose on the fly.
I didn't notice that, but after a third (and fourth and fifth) listening you're right. I think that is a Eb horn. No idea why. I've always seen it and played it on a Bb horn. I'm certainly not one to question her motives, though.
Location: Adelaide, South Australia (originally from Geelong)
Posts: 5,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome_oneil
I didn't notice that, but after a third (and fourth and fifth) listening you're right. I think that is a Eb horn. No idea why. I've always seen it and played it on a Bb horn. I'm certainly not one to question her motives, though.
I did some Googling and found that it is indeed an Eb horn. Might have something to do with the key of that piece. Perhaps the original was written for Eb trumpet?
Perhaps she played an Eb instrument simply because she can! Either way, it is a wonderful performance.
Something else I noticed is that the audio on that YouTube is ahead of the video by 275ms. When I watched it, I actually had the audio running through REAPER so I just dropped a ReaDelay on the input and adjusted to put things in sync.
Just read a book by Shinji Koiwa about pianos, piano performances, piano pieces / composers and piano conertos.
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In 19th century the most popular compositions for piano were composed by
Hummel, Ries, Pixis, Kalkbrenner and Moscheles.
Hummel was the by far most popular pianist and composer in the first half
of 19th century, he was a pupil of Mozart and his pieces were played a lot by young Liszt and young Chopin.
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The best pianists thoses days were Chopin (Pleyel), Liszt (Érard/Bechstein), Kalkbrenner and Thalberg.
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It was Mendelssohn-Bartholdy and Liszt who performed also Beethoven piano pieces and so Beethoven became more and more poular, as well.
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Mozart maybe had the best skills for arrangement and he could compose everything, whether violin concerto, harp, piano, opera, symphony and so on.
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The greatest influence has/had Bach on most composers, and he did not only compose church music, only during the time period after Kothen, in Kothen Bach spent his best years at court, not at church !
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Regarding the compositions from 2nd half of 20th century til today, the post of Xenakios really made me laugh & facepalm.
Last edited by Lord Marceaux de Champs; 02-09-2015 at 03:53 AM.
I did some Googling and found that it is indeed an Eb horn. Might have something to do with the key of that piece. Perhaps the original was written for Eb trumpet?
Perhaps she played an Eb instrument simply because she can! Either way, it is a wonderful performance.
Much of the original score is in Eb, so there's that, I guess.
Quote:
Something else I noticed is that the audio on that YouTube is ahead of the video by 275ms. When I watched it, I actually had the audio running through REAPER so I just dropped a ReaDelay on the input and adjusted to put things in sync.
Beethoven,Brahms,Bach,Mozart,Strauss,Verdi, Vivaldi
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