Old 10-25-2020, 01:10 PM   #281
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The angle is definitely the deal breaker (more so than the buttons). Thanks for the explanation.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:23 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
As for putting the screens offset from the encoders, I've thought about it, but I don't think I'm willing to add to the real estate of the unit.
I have to say I like Robin's idea, what would it add to the width, maybe 1" - 1.5 " ?

In my mind it's the best solution yet, it allows for mounting at any angle the user prefers, you have only one orientation, and you can still see what you are doing.

As usual, just my 2c
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:24 PM   #283
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Working through the EuCon touch issue has made it clear that touch should also send out current rotary value, even if there is no movement, that is what Reaper expects to see.
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:17 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Working through the EuCon touch issue has made it clear that touch should also send out current rotary value, even if there is no movement, that is what Reaper expects to see.
When you say "current rotary value", do you mean that if encoder had an arrow and 12 oclock was 0 degrees, you would want the unit to send out where within the 360 degrees the current position of that arrow was?

Or are you saying that if certain encoder was providing values between -1 and +1, to send out a message stating at what position it was indicating to reaper it was at?

Can you put a few examples of how this reads from other encoder units? Thanks.
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Old 10-26-2020, 02:52 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
When you say "current rotary value", do you mean that if encoder had an arrow and 12 oclock was 0 degrees, you would want the unit to send out where within the 360 degrees the current position of that arrow was?

Or are you saying that if certain encoder was providing values between -1 and +1, to send out a message stating at what position it was indicating to reaper it was at?

Can you put a few examples of how this reads from other encoder units? Thanks.
Very simple.

Suppose a particular encoder (05 in this case) sends the following Midi messages when rotated:

b0 05 00 at minimum and b0 05 7f at maximum.

Now suppose by either physical turning or by Reaper setting it, the value is now b0 05 34.

Now suppose the touch message is 90 05 7f for touched for that rotary.

When the user touches the rotary it should send:
90 05 7f
b0 05 34

That way reaper envelope automation will work properly.

This issue was highlighted by a bug we had to solve for EuCon, it is part of a recent discussion in the CSI thread.

Also, thinking about Midi messages.

It would be a very good idea to mimic the MCU style for Midi messages:

90 xx yy for switches, including touch and press - use yy = 00 for off and yy = 7f for on
b0 xx yy for rotaries -- yy is a value between 00-7f

xx is the identifier and tells us which encoder / switch we are talking about

Perhaps get your hardware guy to have a look at the Midi spec for the MCU and C4.

And, off topic, one final plug for Robin's idea of offset displays, I think it's the best yet !

For right handed people (the majority, about 90%) they should be offset to the left.
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Old 10-26-2020, 03:24 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Very simple.

Suppose a particular encoder (05 in this case) sends the following Midi messages when rotated:

b0 05 00 at minimum and b0 05 7f at maximum.

Now suppose by either physical turning or by Reaper setting it, the value is now b0 05 34.

Now suppose the touch message is 90 05 7f for touched for that rotary.

When the user touches the rotary it should send:
90 05 7f
b0 05 34

That way reaper envelope automation will work properly.

This issue was highlighted by a bug we had to solve for EuCon, it is part of a recent discussion in the CSI thread.

Also, thinking about Midi messages.

It would be a very good idea to mimic the MCU style for Midi messages:

90 xx yy for switches, including touch and press - use yy = 00 for off and yy = 7f for on
b0 xx yy for rotaries -- yy is a value between 00-7f

xx is the identifier and tells us which encoder / switch we are talking about

Perhaps get your hardware guy to have a look at the Midi spec for the MCU and C4.

And, off topic, one final plug for Robin's idea of offset displays, I think it's the best yet !

For right handed people (the majority, about 90%) they should be offset to the left.
Just sent you an email to clarify this. Thanks.
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Old 10-31-2020, 07:27 AM   #287
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Hi there, this is Matt, the guy that Siniarch mentioned was interested in working on something to get this working in Studio One.

Have been reading through this thread with great interest and am equally impressed with the work that has gone into the CSI project (and I understand the creator has some serious pedigree! )

I'd just got to the end here with the info about the encoders.

Geoff it looks from your post that Reaper is always expecting an absolute value from an encoder, so it's actually a 'knob' value with a fixed start and end point (0-127 / 00h-7Fh) as opposed to an endless encoder which sends relative values (ie for MCU it's 65h 01h for one increment to the left or 01h 01h for each step to the right).

This means it's not necessary to track values at the controller end.

Does that mean Reaper isn't utilising a relative encoder system or was it just an example?

ps Sorry for jumping in randomly !
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Old 10-31-2020, 08:00 AM   #288
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Hi there, this is Matt, the guy that Siniarch mentioned was interested in working on something to get this working in Studio One.

Have been reading through this thread with great interest and am equally impressed with the work that has gone into the CSI project (and I understand the creator has some serious pedigree! )

I'd just got to the end here with the info about the encoders.

Geoff it looks from your post that Reaper is always expecting an absolute value from an encoder, so it's actually a 'knob' value with a fixed start and end point (0-127 / 00h-7Fh) as opposed to an endless encoder which sends relative values (ie for MCU it's 65h 01h for one increment to the left or 01h 01h for each step to the right).

This means it's not necessary to track values at the controller end.

Does that mean Reaper isn't utilising a relative encoder system or was it just an example?

ps Sorry for jumping in randomly !
Well, it's kind of both

CSI supports 00 - 7f values -- 7 bit faders/rotaries -- Console 1 is an example.

CSI also supports encoders.

Reaper automation has a characteristic the requires that when using touch for envelopes, not only touch needs to be sent, but also the current value of the parameter needs to be sent.

The MCU flavours (mostly) do this.

I recently had to fix CSI EuCon to do this.

I'm just suggesting that since @siniarch is in control of the firmware and the led rings around the encoder have an implied range, it would be beneficial to send the touch message and then the current value whenever a rotary is touched, if it is sufficiently granular.

Actually, I'm currently rethinking this on the CSI side, so it may not be necessary to do this at all any more
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Old 10-31-2020, 08:47 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent View Post
Hi there, this is Matt, the guy that Siniarch mentioned was interested in working on something to get this working in Studio One.

Have been reading through this thread with great interest and am equally impressed with the work that has gone into the CSI project (and I understand the creator has some serious pedigree! )

I'd just got to the end here with the info about the encoders.

Geoff it looks from your post that Reaper is always expecting an absolute value from an encoder, so it's actually a 'knob' value with a fixed start and end point (0-127 / 00h-7Fh) as opposed to an endless encoder which sends relative values (ie for MCU it's 65h 01h for one increment to the left or 01h 01h for each step to the right).

This means it's not necessary to track values at the controller end.

Does that mean Reaper isn't utilising a relative encoder system or was it just an example?

ps Sorry for jumping in randomly !
Matt, I think Geoff has explained it on his post already. But I'll re-iterate just to get it clear in my head. From my understanding, my controller will have relative values to the encoders, but when touching the encoders they need to output the "touch ON" midi code and the "current value" of the Ring LEDs.

When releasing the encoder, it needs to send the "touch OFF" midi code and the "current value" of the Ring LED for my controller to remember this. Of course when Reaper value gets moved by mouse, it needs to update the "Current value" of the ring LED.

At least that was my latest understanding. But it seems Geoff may have figured out a way to circumvent this and may not be needed to send the "Current value" of LED Ring. Now LED ring still needs to be listening to Reaper to make sure the LED ring lights reflect "current value" of parameter, whether it was changed by encoder or by mouse in reaper.
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Old 10-31-2020, 01:02 PM   #290
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Matt, I think Geoff has explained it on his post already. But I'll re-iterate just to get it clear in my head. From my understanding, my controller will have relative values to the encoders, but when touching the encoders they need to output the "touch ON" midi code and the "current value" of the Ring LEDs.

When releasing the encoder, it needs to send the "touch OFF" midi code and the "current value" of the Ring LED for my controller to remember this. Of course when Reaper value gets moved by mouse, it needs to update the "Current value" of the ring LED.

At least that was my latest understanding. But it seems Geoff may have figured out a way to circumvent this and may not be needed to send the "Current value" of LED Ring. Now LED ring still needs to be listening to Reaper to make sure the LED ring lights reflect "current value" of parameter, whether it was changed by encoder or by mouse in reaper.
Yes just got the results back from @MixMonkey, the new way works on Midi surfaces, I knew it worked on EuCon, so looks like you don't have to do this anymore
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Old 10-31-2020, 01:03 PM   #291
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Yes just got the results back from @MixMonkey, the new way works on Midi surfaces, I knew it worked on EuCon, so looks like you don't have to do this anymore
Well, that's great news. But I should still figure out the LED Ring so they can have an absolute value. Otherwise it will be difficult for controller to know which LEDs to turn on or off.

Thanks.
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Old 10-31-2020, 04:29 PM   #292
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Well, that's great news. But I should still figure out the LED Ring so they can have an absolute value. Otherwise it will be difficult for controller to know which LEDs to turn on or off.

Thanks.
Have a look at the MCU LED ring spec, and perhaps modify/build on it.
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Old 10-31-2020, 10:11 PM   #293
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Have a look at the MCU LED ring spec, and perhaps modify/build on it.
I believe I did get something with specs for MCU LED rings, but I didn't find the C4 specs. I'm thinking that would be very helpful.

So far, we are able to get MIDI codes to come out of the unit, but were having some issues when the codes would freeze. We are troubleshooting that now and are getting close to having stable MIDI codes.

As soon as we do this, we'll move on to OLED screen functions, but I should be able to start testing the MIDI codes with CSI and Reaper soon. I have a few projects that I'm working on that are distracting me from finishing the case for the unit as well as I'm overseeing the Studio Construction which also takes me away from this project, but I'm chugging along on all fronts, so Progress is progress.
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Old 11-02-2020, 12:17 PM   #294
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Default 1st Test with CSI and SiniConEn24

Hi everyone,

Making some progress here. I know CSI is in the middle of an internal restructuring, but I couldn't wait and wanted to test my unit with the old version of CSI that I have installed.

Still having some issues with MIDI Out from the computer into the controller. We are figuring it out why it's freezing, but when I only have MIDI IN from controller to Computer it's working fine.

I did a Quick MTS and ZON files and trying it on ReaComp.
Check it out:
https://youtu.be/512lgIdY8LI



If anyone has figured out how to finetune the encoders so that for example the threshold doesn't start too fine and end up too coarse as far as moving the fader, that would be great. If you see the video, it begins by lowering the threshold and moving one db at a time, but when it gets close to infinity, it's jumping 20db from infinity to -42db?

This also happens with the other parameters.

Thanks.

Last edited by siniarch; 11-02-2020 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 11-02-2020, 12:47 PM   #295
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Hi everyone,

Making some progress here. I know CSI is in the middle of an internal restructuring, but I couldn't wait and wanted to test my unit with the old version of CSI that I have installed.

Still having some issues with MIDI Out from the computer into the controller. We are figuring it out why it's freezing, but when I only have MIDI IN from controller to Computer it's working fine.

I did a Quick MTS and ZON files and trying it on ReaComp.
Check it out:
https://youtu.be/512lgIdY8LI

If anyone has figured out how to finetune the encoders so that for example the threshold doesn't start too fine and end up too coarse as far as moving the fader, that would be great. If you see the video, it begins by lowering the threshold and moving one db at a time, but when it gets close to infinity, it's jumping 20db from infinity to -42db?

This also happens with the other parameters.

Thanks.
Fabulous !!

Some of the Reaper plugins aren't the best scaling wise, @MixMonkey is a wizard at tuning steps/acceleration to get things to operate smoothly, maybe refer to this video in the CSI thread and ask the folks over there.
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Old 11-02-2020, 12:57 PM   #296
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If anyone has figured out how to finetune the encoders so that for example the threshold doesn't start too fine and end up too coarse as far as moving the fader, that would be great.
I'm not sure if you'll find this helpful or not, but I set up my Console 1 for a very simple acceleration that moves 1 step (out of 127) when more than 15ms has elapsed from the previous move, and 3 steps when less than 15ms. It feels remarkably smooth and natural to use, and I wasn't expecting it to be that easy. This is in use as a generic MIDI controller with 127 possible values.
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:03 PM   #297
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I'm a little surprised to see that you are going with stepped encoders. Not necessarily a bad thing, but for some reason I thought these were going to be smooth. Is that the direction you've decided to go?
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:08 PM   #298
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I'm a little surprised to see that you are going with stepped encoders. Not necessarily a bad thing, but for some reason I thought these were going to be smooth. Is that the direction you've decided to go?
I didn't necessarily have a huge biased one way or another. The only thing is that the QCon Controller I own has stepped encoders, so I chose that, but the manufacturer makes stepped and non-stepped in the same physical form factor, so, it can be switched easily. As far as programming the firmware, I would have to ask if it would be an issue.

I guess at some point, I'd have to make a survey and see what people prefer the most.
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:08 PM   #299
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I'm not sure if you'll find this helpful or not, but I set up my Console 1 for a very simple acceleration that moves 1 step (out of 127) when more than 15ms has elapsed from the previous move, and 3 steps when less than 15ms. It feels remarkably smooth and natural to use, and I wasn't expecting it to be that easy. This is in use as a generic MIDI controller with 127 possible values.
Can you show me how the Zone file for this looks like?
Thanks.
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:20 PM   #300
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I didn't necessarily have a huge biased one way or another. The only thing is that the QCon Controller I own has stepped encoders, so I chose that, but the manufacturer makes stepped and non-stepped in the same physical form factor, so, it can be switched easily. As far as programming the firmware, I would have to ask if it would be an issue.

I guess at some point, I'd have to make a survey and see what people prefer the most.
Well, my Console 1 is smooth, and I really like it as it feels much more like I'm interacting with a piece of hardware rather than a software controller - but I do realize that is a subjective opinion.

If this thing does end up supporting MIDI 2.0 at some point down the road, I wonder if stepped values might be problematic at higher resolutions. ?
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:22 PM   #301
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I didn't necessarily have a huge biased one way or another. The only thing is that the QCon Controller I own has stepped encoders, so I chose that, but the manufacturer makes stepped and non-stepped in the same physical form factor, so, it can be switched easily. As far as programming the firmware, I would have to ask if it would be an issue.

I guess at some point, I'd have to make a survey and see what people prefer the most.
Remember when we talked about quadrature encoders sending spurious wrong direction messages, I've noticed over the years that the stepped ones are much more prone to this problem, especially as they get more wear, so my vote is for smooth ones
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:24 PM   #302
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Can you show me how the Zone file for this looks like?
Thanks.
I'm using Bome, so I don't have a CSI Zone file unfortunately.

But it's just a simple 15 ms timer that resets after every move and sets an indicating variable on or off depending if it is in the process of counting or has already finished.
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:32 PM   #303
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Remember when we talked about quadrature encoders sending spurious wrong direction messages, I've noticed over the years that the stepped ones are much more prone to this problem, especially as they get more wear, so my vote is for smooth ones
Well, that would be a really good reason to choose one over the other. In addition to what Mr.Green said about MIDI 2.0.

I'll ask if we would have any major issues if we went with smooth.
Thanks guys.
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:33 PM   #304
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I'm using Bome, so I don't have a CSI Zone file unfortunately.

But it's just a simple 15 ms timer that resets after every move and sets an indicating variable on or off depending if it is in the process of counting or has already finished.
This is interesting. I'll have to take a look at Bome. I saw the page, but haven't downloaded it. Seems very interesting and I know Matt, who is doing the Studio One implementation uses it for his setup.
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Old 11-02-2020, 03:40 PM   #305
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Hi there !

I'm still very interested in your fantastic project, but I must admit I'm a little concerned about the stepped encoders... They are very loud in the video you just made and that kind of loud encoder is a deal breaker for mixing imho. Am I the only one to think that ?

Anyway, this controller is still an awesome project and I'll keep an eye on it
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Old 11-02-2020, 04:26 PM   #306
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Hi there !

I'm still very interested in your fantastic project, but I must admit I'm a little concerned about the stepped encoders... They are very loud in the video you just made and that kind of loud encoder is a deal breaker for mixing imho. Am I the only one to think that ?

Anyway, this controller is still an awesome project and I'll keep an eye on it
Well, so far, it seems that everyone has really good points about making them non-stepped. And like I said, I don't have horse in this race. So it's looking more and more that we will be going with smooth encoders. The reason why these are probably more loud is because I didn't go for the cheap encoders. These are rated to have higher life than almost all the other ones I was looking at. Trust me, I want to make it as good as I can so I have less issues to deal with later. The only other encoders I found that had better life expectancy were restrictively priced and the size was also an issue.
The other thing to consider is that this front plate is made out of plastic and it's glued onto a cardboard enclosure which certainly do not prevent the unit from vibrating. I would assume once I have a proper metal case and all the parts I'm thinking about properly secured, that it will be less resonant.
But smooth encoders are certainly rising to the top.
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Old 11-02-2020, 08:05 PM   #307
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My Qcon ProX rotaries are stepped (like, very tiny steps) and if you spin too fast the values go backward. I think that may be what Geoff was referring to?
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Old 11-02-2020, 08:13 PM   #308
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My Qcon ProX rotaries are stepped (like, very tiny steps) and if you spin too fast the values go backward. I think that may be what Geoff was referring to?
That's exactly what Geoff is talking about.

I have the QCon Pro G2 and it also has stepped encoders, but judging from the last few posts I think I will be going with stepless encoders. Just seems to make more sense.
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Old 11-03-2020, 06:22 AM   #309
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What a good news !

Thanks
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Old 11-11-2020, 12:58 AM   #310
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What a good news !

Thanks
Good news confirmed. We ordered a couple of smooth encoders and they do fit the same footprint as before, so we will be able to replace the dented ones with smooth ones.

In fact, I had placed an order for 30 more encoders because the 1st batch we soldered some of the components ourselves and were having issues with connections. So I wanted to test the ones that were completely finished by the factory for Quality Control.

Luckily we were able to stop the production of those 30 units while we figure out the smooth encoder possibility. We will do some test with these smooth ones and then we'll be able to instruct the factory to make the new 30 ones with the smooth encoders.

Also, the previous encoders I had gone with a 1.5mm push button travel. These new ones will be .5mm push travel. I think it will be easier to push, but they will still not accidentally be pushed by just touching them. So, smoother, and easier to push. I think these will be better for the task at hand.
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:09 AM   #311
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Remember when we talked about quadrature encoders sending spurious wrong direction messages, I've noticed over the years that the stepped ones are much more prone to this problem, especially as they get more wear, so my vote is for smooth ones
Experience with encoder reliability:
  • Most reliable encoders - Midifighter Twister. Unbroken over four years of use.
  • Worst reliability - Arturia Beatstep. These messed up a LOT. They probably wouldn't survive cap replacement with Chroma Caps.
  • The X-Touch Mini(stepped with push function) seem to be ok so far in 4.5 years of light use.
  • Novation SL61 - locked down functionality, i.e. some absolute-only and some endless encoders. Not let me down yet either in almost 10 years of operation. Retired due to unpractical size on desk .
  • Presonus Faderport range knobs. I almost never use them. Rough to the touch, requires quite a bit of effort to move.
Blackmagic Design is putting out a range of controllers right now for its DaVinci Resolve Fairlight page that use touch sensitive encoders. They claim they're using the best faders they could find, no word on the encoders. The real kicker for me is the HDMI output on the independant unit that shows off all kinds of useful information. The little displays above each encoder are the more interesting part for this project.

___

A small video of the displays is here. The overview page shows all of these images and video.
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Last edited by airon; 11-11-2020 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:41 AM   #312
siniarch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Experience with encoder reliability:
  • Most reliable encoders - Midifighter Twister. Unbroken over four years of use.
  • Worst reliability - Arturia Beatstep. These messed up a LOT. They probably wouldn't survive cap replacement with Chroma Caps.
  • The X-Touch Mini(stepped with push function) seem to be ok so far in 4.5 years of light use.
  • Novation SL61 - locked down functionality, i.e. some absolute-only and some endless encoders. Not let me down yet either in almost 10 years of operation. Retired due to unpractical size on desk .
  • Presonus Faderport range knobs. I almost never use them. Rough to the touch, requires quite a bit of effort to move.
Blackmagic Design is putting out a range of controllers right now for its DaVinci Resolve Fairlight page that use touch sensitive encoders. They claim they're using the best faders they could find, no word on the encoders. The real kicker for me is the HDMI output on the independant unit that shows off all kinds of useful information. The little displays above each encoder are the more interesting part for this project.

___

A small video of the displays is here. The overview page shows all of these images and video.
Thanks for the post. I did see the announcement on Gearslutz actually. But I hadn't seen the video of the displays. They look very good. Obviously their form factor would be space prohibited for my controller as it would end up being a pretty tall unit, which I'm trying to avoid.

I also want to thank you for the info about encoders. I am getting encoders from a very reliable company, so I'm hoping that they will also last for a long time. And as Geoff said, the smooth ones should have less issues with wear and tear.
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Old 11-14-2020, 09:31 PM   #313
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This project is so exiting !

Thanks again for doing this
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Old 11-14-2020, 10:15 PM   #314
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This project is so exiting !

Thanks again for doing this
Thanks Nantho. I really appreciate anyone and everyone taking interest on this project.

I'm also pretty excited myself. I've updated the screens. We currently have 8 screens planned and in my opinion, they will be able to handle most FX parameters.

I'm hoping in a week or so, we'll have at least 1 screen functioning and then the rest will hopefully go smoother. Geoff will be kind enough to allow us to use SysEx messages so that we can control most of the screen items and colors.

I know this photo is not very exciting and may seem to everyone that is something I've posted before, but below you can see the new Smooth Encoder on one of our modules. Almost exactly the same size. I think it was 1mm or 2mm off in one direction, but the mounting locations were the same.

So, for all those that wanted smooth encoder, here you go.

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Old 11-14-2020, 11:02 PM   #315
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Great news !
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Old 11-15-2020, 10:29 AM   #316
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Looks good siniarch! Im definitely interested.
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Old 11-15-2020, 11:54 AM   #317
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Looks good siniarch! Im definitely interested.
Thank you. Glad to see that there is more interest and that some are keeping an eye out on this project.

I just applied for my MIDI.org SysEx ID code, so hopefully in a week, we'll be officially registered with MIDI.
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Old 11-18-2020, 04:00 AM   #318
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Quick update:

We are happy to announce that this week we received an official:
MIDI Association
SysEX ID.

What does this means to you? Not much I guess, hahahah. But to us, this means that when we are using MIDI code to communicate with a computer, it will be done properly and we won't be using a different company's ID improperly. This is just another small step towards getting these units out in the real world.

Last edited by siniarch; 11-18-2020 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 11-18-2020, 04:34 AM   #319
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Default First Couple of Screens

Also wanted to share the first couple of screens for the controller.
Still tweaking these and in the process of selecting the best font for small screens. I've found a couple fonts that work well, and will be trying them shortly.



This screen will basically have 2 lines. One for the name of the FX and the second, for either "Bypass" or "manufacturer's name" or any other value the user may want to add.

The bar at the top has a center area that when you press the encoder turns off. This will be the Bypass or ON/OFF for the FX.
Below would have the MIX or WET parameter. When turning the encoder it will change the Wet value.

Although this was created for BYPASS and WET, in essence this screen can be used to control an ON/OFF parameter and an UP/DOWN parameter with the same encoder.





(please disregard the lack of legibility as we are in the process of selecting a better font that will be more legible.)
This screen is intended to show the FXName above, so you know which FX it is related to. The second line shows the actual FX Parameter that is being affected.

The checkboxes on the left would be for parameters that may have 2 options. For example a compressor that has either a Analogue or Digital flavor. Pressing the encoder could toggle from A to B. Turning the encoder, would affect the parameter amount.

The bar below would be used to show another value that is affected by this parameter. For example. If you are controlling a compressor, the Parameter controlled with the encoder could be the Threshold. The bar name could be "Reduction" and the bar could show the applied reduction from Right to Left.

Again, each user could utilize these screens in slightly different ways, but this was the initial intended use.
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Old 11-18-2020, 08:17 AM   #320
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Glad to see this moving along. I enjoy watching the progress from afar.
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