Ableton Link Support

[PrimeEagle]

I'm very interested in this feature, too!

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

I just can't understand how the devs are not interested in something this powerful and accessible.

They should be interested in co-founding a "DAW Link" organization that interdependently maintains the protocol specs.

-Michael

[deeb]

Originally Posted by mschnell

They should be interested in co-founding a "DAW Link" organization that interdependently maintains the protocol specs.

-Michael

Actually the technology is called "link"! but i think actually the name is irrelevant compared to the relevant benefits.



from https://ableton.github.io/link/

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by deeb

Actually the technology is called "link"

That is why a decently speaking name is necessary. I suggested "DAW-Link" but I don't suppose this is optimum.In fact it seems not to be tied to Ableton (any more), and hence this needs to be removed as part of a name, but as you said, "link" alone is by far too global.
-Michael

[carbon]

So in Reaper it becomes ReaLink.

[mschnell]

Nice try, but fighting the Devil with another one.
IMHO a decent common name should be invented.

[deeb]

One good thing about new feature in the Ableton 11 (beta) is ability to the tempo be defined by per example a drummer. This is amazing and I guess "link" make it possible to be used with other Daws too.

1 example of: 1 feature in reaper equals thousands of new ones available to be used easily

[TauTau]

while trying to make our current setup (one laptop running reaper with click and loops) expanded by a second laptop running GigPerformer with a NeuralDSP guitar amp, I stumbled across link. Not having to buy Ableton Live and transfer everything just for gig usage would be huge benefit... so a
+1 for link
from me... I also messed around with the various sync protocols out there, mostly from the 80s, and the ease of link is unbeaten...

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by TauTau

Not having to buy Ableton Live and transfer everything just for gig usage...

Interesting, indeed

So the thing need to get a decent name telling it from other "links" and not tying it to a dedicated DAW.

-Michael

[deeb]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Interesting, indeed

indeed, and the thousands of other features that would come with it! it's a no brain to implement , specially since Cockos is kind of vanguard but limited in manny aspects for electronic music production and it's a "Let's be friend DAWs feature". It's a win/win/win.

Reaper users win because:
- we can make jams and use thousands of features which are not present in reaper (localhost or lan)

Other DAws users win because:
- they take advantage of reaper bigger strengths which is probably pos production / tracking /mixing and jam with reapers friends

Reaper wins because:
- more users (with totally different workflows) will be attracted by reaper. It's hard to change from Daws like Ableton or bitwig to reaper, but totally useful and easy using reaper has a complementary of electronic music production.

[bmanic]

Another bump for this. Would love ableton link support as it would help with syncing some external gear that uses link, for instance the MPC Live/Live2/X and Force.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by bmanic

Another bump for this. Would love ableton link support as it would help with syncing some external gear that uses link, for instance the MPC Live/Live2/X and Force.

and our friends

[en5ca]

Originally Posted by deeb

and our friends

ReaBlink might be worth testing.

[blumpy]

I tried reblink... it look promising but crashes both reaper and ableton on my system.

[en5ca]

Originally Posted by blumpy

I tried reblink... it look promising but crashes both reaper and ableton on my system.

Ok. Please provide details to this thread and I'll see if I can fix.

[Bevosss]

Another +1 for implementing Link here
I've been feeding Bitwig's master into Reaper via Rearoute,
since Bitwig won't implement the dying rewire protocol
What a great combination they make


ReaBlink does an admirable job syncing the 2 DAWs, a miniscule bit of drift in and out but very usable, I can have different length time selections looping in both daws and both transports start and stop together but with independent position control while still synced via smoothseek

BUT, I can't record from Bitwig into Reaper with Reablink running,
the playrate voodoo going on puts the items playrate out and they never line up correctly again even after resetting

So I have an identical click bar item in both daws I prefix to the track so I can drag it into time once recorded

An actual solid Link implementation would make them a perfect combo for me

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Bevosss

An actual solid Link implementation

AFAIK that's just the way Link is designed. They sacrificed accuracy for ease of use.

[chumbo]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

AFAIK that's just the way Link is designed. They sacrificed accuracy for ease of use.

In my experience it can be absolutely dead-on, where both clicks are indistinguishable from each other. You can start, stop, resume and it will pickup perfectly...damn remarkable when it works right!

But that's the thing, it's got to be a perfect marriage between the two devices involved. Some two get along fine and sync up perfectly, others less and some it's just a disaster!

The bass player and I are perfectly synced with our laptops using Ableton but I can't get a decent sync going with the drummer using the Soundbrenner app!
I've found Reablink to be in that middle category where it can be a workable solution in a non-critical situation like a jam session or working at home but I wouldn't use it in a live gig or a rehearsal.
Too bad and frustrating to come so close to a perfect solution!

[mschnell]

As ReaBlink is a Reaper extension it can use any resources in Reaper including any timing features possible.

Hence - if crafted appropriately - there should be no difference between the performance of ReaBlink and a "native" implementation.

(Of course ReaBlink is not yet v1.x, hence one might hope for improvements... Supposedly en5ca will be happy to be provided with testable issue notifications. )

-Michael

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by chumbo

In my experience it can be absolutely dead-on, where both clicks are indistinguishable from each other. You can start, stop, resume and it will pickup perfectly...damn remarkable when it works right!

But that's the thing, it's got to be a perfect marriage between the two devices involved. Some two get along fine and sync up perfectly, others less and some it's just a disaster!

OK I get that some implementations may be better than others, but I was referring to this:

Link Concepts

Link is different from other approaches to synchronizing electronic instruments that you may be familiar with. It is not designed to orchestrate multiple instruments so that they play together in lock-step along a shared timeline. In fact, Link-enabled apps each have their own independent timelines. The Link library maintains a temporal relationship between these independent timelines that provides the experience of playing in time without the timelines being identical.

source/more info: https://ableton.github.io/link/

In other words, the intention of the software is not to have sample accurate sync, like word clock or MIDI clock etc. It's about the experience.

Just like playing live with musicians, it's in a constant state of adjustment.

[chumbo]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

OK I get that some implementations may be better than others, but I was referring to this:


source/more info: https://ableton.github.io/link/

In other words, the intention of the software is not to have sample accurate sync, like word clock or MIDI clock etc. It's about the experience.

Just like playing live with musicians, it's in a constant state of adjustment.

Right, well I'm not expert just an end-user relating his experience. I can just say that when it works properly, in its non-attempt at maintaining a sample-accurate sync, Link does the best job at it that I've ever experienced!
Reaper's MIDI sync is a disaster so Link, despite its flaws in the current Reablink implementation of it, is still the best sync option around that I'm aware of.

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by chumbo

I can just say that when it works properly, in its non-attempt at maintaining a sample-accurate sync, Link does the best job at it that I've ever experienced!

Yes I agree. But if people are trying to use it for recording individual tracks across different machines, they might be disappointed.

Reaper could definitely use some love in the sync department. It's pretty limited.

[Bevosss]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

It is not designed to orchestrate multiple instruments so that they play together in lock-step along a shared timeline. In fact, Link-enabled apps each have their own independent timelines. The Link library maintains a temporal relationship between these independent timelines that provides the experience of playing in time without the timelines being identical.

Link timelines being independent is a great feature
The tempos are meant to be synced though as I understand it, which is the important part
I'm assuming it's a broadly solid sync when working correctly judging by how many apps have implemented it

Link synchronizes musical beat, tempo, and phase across multiple applications running on one or more devices.

Anyone can start or stop while still staying in time. Anyone can change the tempo, the others will follow.

Link provides tempo sync and a grid to which apps can align.
In Live 10 the feature "Start Stop Sync" additionally shares Transport Start and Stop Commands.

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/ar...-functions-FAQ

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Looks like they are keen to help other apps like REAPER integrate Link

I'm an App developer. How can I integrate Link into my app?

We want Link to help musicians connect and collaborate in innovative ways, so we have provided the Link SDK for free. You can learn more and get access to the SDK at our LinkKit page.
http://ableton.github.io/linkkit/

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Some other relevant tempo info:

How does Link decide whose tempo to use?
When starting a session, Link uses the tempo from the app who has been in the Link session the longest. For example, if one person starts an app with Link enabled before anyone else does, this app’s tempo is chosen as the initial tempo for the session. Dropping out of a session causes that app's time in the session to reset to zero when joining the session again.

What happens if different apps try to change tempo in opposite directions?
There will be a “tempo fight”, and the winner will be the app that last changes the tempo.

Why did the arrangement positions diverge although I started both Link-enabled apps at the same time?
If multiple apps are incurring extreme tempo changes in opposing directions, it can happen that the beat timelines diverge. This can also happen if the apps have different time signatures or different Global Quantization settings. However, Link will always keep the phase of the apps in sync.

What are the differences between Link and regular MIDI Sync?
A major difference between Link and MIDI Sync is that Link is free from the limitations of Host and Device - all users are equal. That is, everyone in a Link session can change the tempo of the session, and individuals can also start and stop their music independently of each other.

Is it possible to prevent certain apps from setting or changing the tempo?
No, this is not possible with Link. Each Link app has freedom to influence tempo equally.

The timing between applications is out of sync. How can I offset this delay?
Each app and device will handle and report latency in different ways - these differences may result in the apps being out of sync with each-other. In Live you can adjust the Master track's Track Delay to compensate for any offset between Live and other Link peers. Certain apps may also have a sync adjustment slider to allow you to offset them and correct any sync issues.

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* One thing I found with Reablink is it could leave your playrate not on 1.0 without you noticing,
so I macroed the 'reset playrate to 1.0' to the Reablink toggle for safety
It'd be handy if it always reset to 1.0 upon start/stop, or was an option

I find I can just leave Bitwig's 'Link' button enabled, and toggle Reablink on/off as required

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Bevosss

Looks like they are keen to help other apps like REAPER integrate Link

Yea it would be really great if Cockos took an interest in this...When I tried ReaBlink though, it worked well enough.