Full band tracking session workflow - HELP!!!

[Tone Ranger]

Hello Reaper hive mind!!!

I'm hoping some of you may be able to point me in the direction of tutorials showing how you experienced Reaper users track a full band setup with multiple takes....especially when it involves NOT using a click track (but also interested in seeing any gridded workflows as well).

I'm coming from 20 years of (cough) Pro Tools, very excited about dumping that mess and experiencing something better. So I'm used to the Pro Tools playlist system, but not at all tied to it. I'd like to see how experienced Reaper people deal with multiple takes across many tracks, especially when there is no grid and each pass of the song by the band needs to stay grouped across the session.....so cutting between takes on all tracks can be done easily. I know that's wordy, but hopefully it makes sense! LOL

The videos I've seen about comping and editing in Reaper so far (I've been through a bunch of Kenny's as well as Jon Tidey's, but I may have missed some that are pertinent to this) have been helpful, but I'm still confused as to how to keep each performance of the song in a full band setup (multiple mics on everything) in sync across all of the tracks....and how edits and rearranging are generally done in Reaper.

I can see 'ripple editing' mode would replace 'shuffle mode' that I'm used to in Pro Tools for inserting and deleting sections of a song into a comp when they don't line up on a grid. I'm pretty confused about "new recording splits existing items and creates new takes" - if each recording pass isn't the same length it gets messy really quickly...but that seems to be the only option for creating takes? Also, even though my drum tracks are grouped, clicking on a take in my snare track (for example) only selects that take on the snare track, not on all of my drum tracks (or all of the takes for the full band if I also have that grouped).

Anyhow, I know you all have your own ways of making these types of tracking situations work...so any suggestions/pointers/etc would be really helpful.....especially from any of you who may have come from a Pro Tools background and can help me get my head into the Reaper way of thinking and out of the Pro Tools mindset.

Extremely grateful to any and all who can help 🍻

[hopi]

you have a few options.. but it sounds like you want to do in the takes manner...

which is fine but with a kind of big deal to be aware of...
when you do takes, IF you only do a partial of the full song, you start to get more and more of a mess... because you get takes that split up here and there and it can rapidly become a mess when you want to pick takes to use...

One solution is to make a time selection that is the whole song and maybe just a bar more...

and start each take from zero time and let it play all the way through even if you mess it up...

that way you will get full takes, all the same size and later you can split them and pick the ones you want to keep or use...

another way, that you likely won't use, is old skook, one track = one take
that can be pretty OK is you don't mind setting it up ....
Lets say you have 10 inputs to record, so 10 tracks at once
OK make those tracks and set them up ready to rec. each with it's proper input, etc.
Make a folder and name it ONE and put them all in that folder
Set the folder itself to monitoring only, record disabled

[at this point you might want to select the folder and save it as a track template so you can load copies of it easily in the future]

OK so the "future" is now... LoL
Load a few copies of that template and change the folder names to TWO, THREE, etc.

Now you could go further if for example you have 4 or 10 of these folder templates loaded, named and ready to use... by opening the group matrix and setting each folder to be the master of its children so it will record arm the children as slaves

So now you have folders, each one ready to record the full band and you only need to hit the rec button on a given folder to arm the children in it

you will get each folder as its own separate 'take' with all the separate band parts each on one track... no 'take system' involved.
Old Skool

[Tone Ranger]

Really appreciate the suggestions Hopi, big thanks for that!!

Hhmmm...takes in Reaper don't sound so appealing. Limiting the musicians on a session to full takes because it's easier for me isn't really an option. LOL

The folders idea seems a lot more workable. Comping wouldn't be so easy, but this definitely seems like a better option.

I'm totally open to new workflows....Reaper seems a lot more efficient in a lot of ways than Pro Tools.....but the takes/playlists/comping thing doesn't seem so good....if these are the easiest options. Has anyone else come up with any alternatives? Don't really care if the work flow is nothing like Pro Tools playlists, as long as it's efficient and trustworthy!! LOL

[serr]

I'm not a fan of any of the various comp systems in different DAWs. Reaper included. They all take extra steps and feel like a vestigial nod to the workflow required with analog tape and limited tracks. That's all debatable and that's all good!

I record what I consider "DAW style".
Make a recording track(s).
Record parts.
Drop parts I want to keep down into new tracks that become the actual arrangement mix tracks.

The recording track is always muted.
If I'm monitoring through the cuemix mixer in my interface, that follows anyway.
If I'm doing something where I need to run it live and monitor through the Reaper mixing board with low latency settings, I'll actually make a separate monitor track. (Monitor only - no recording.)

Reaper defaults to its comp system with "take" mode.
To turn that off, select: Options -> New recording that overlaps existing media items -> Creates new media items in separate lanes.

The default takes business makes every new take a new audio stream in the single existing item. You get to use the comp features to select which take you want to hear. This assumes you'll always have every take the same length, start, and end. (Which usually only makes sense when recording with grids, clicks, and messing with MIDI instruments.)

The 'lanes' mode lets new takes stack up in the recording track(s) as separate items.

The difference vs. Protools:

In Protools, you had to click something to make a new playlist for every take.
Need to make an edit to the whole song that alters the timeline? If you don't go through the exercise of duplicating that edit on all the playlists, those takes become pretty worthless later on.

In Reaper, new takes stack up in lanes in the recording track. No clicking around between takes. They're all right there and edit with everything else if that comes up. You can easily grab a different take later on if you change your mind.

Thus Reaper cleaned this up for me and sped up tracking/overdubbing vs Protools. Love it!

Tip: The '2' and '8' numberpad keys are assigned to the 'move selected items down/up a track vertically' actions. For flying those takes down into your arrangement tracks or back up to the recording bin track.


Some people still like the analog tape feel. Punch a new take into the track with your previous take that you are monitoring. So you have to program the punch in/out points. Rehearse the pre/post roll for the monitor to switch between "tape" and input for that track. So you can do the performance and head and tail edits all while the transport moves just like you had to do with a tape deck and limited tracks. Reaper has all these features if you're into that.

The comp feature with the 'take' mode could be appealing if you really truly record all overdubs for any bit with all the same exact start/end points. If you don't - and recording actual live music with a real drummer instead of a grid or click, you'd pretty much never want to - it turns into a big shit mess with that single item with multiple audio streams and 49 splits in it where the different takes actually started/stopped.

Reaper being Reaper, there are probably a half dozen other workflows you could set yourself up with to your personal way of thinking too.


Multitrack recording tip:
There's a feature to group newly recorded items recorded together (ie multitrack). Toggle it on.
There's a group option for 'selecting one item of a group selects the entire group'. Toggle that on.
Reaper is selection based. Multiple items selected together respond to edit moves together (splits, start/end resizing, etc). The grouping doesn't make them work together. That's an aid to let you select the whole group of items with a single click.

So... editing multitrack is literally the same moves as working on a single track! You could even reduce or hide every track but one (eg with drums). Just get a handle on those modes/commands and it's smooth sailing.

[Coachz]

I have recorded many full bands in Reaper and my workflow has evolved over many years.

My best method was to have the band play the entire song with headphone monitoring. Then go back and comp tracks that need it. Typically I'll loop a section for a minute while they practice then hit record when they aren't looking and then hit stop and say "Got it". For vocals, I often do a verse / chorus at a time and just section by section punching in takes, comping until I get what I need.

This is my toolbar and I can enter different punch in modes with a click. Time gives me a punch in over a time selection plus includes pre-roll and post-roll to keep things in context. The musician hears the track and themselves up to the punch and then only them during the punch.

Same with Item punch and To End. Item punch will punch over selected items and To End will punch from the edit cursor to the end of the project. Restart Recording throws the last take(s) out and starts again. It's super fast and musicians don't know what hit them. Let me know if anything is confusing. There is also my takes/comps doc here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15w...Sk0MzG0A2kyLs-





Custom: Stop Undo and Record
Transport: Stop
Edit: Undo
Transport: Record

Custom: Punch in Time Selection
Go to start of loop
SWS/BR: Save edit cursor position, slot 01
Time selection: Set start point
Go to end of loop
Time selection: Set end point
Go to end of time selection
Move edit cursor forward one beat
Loop points: Set end point
SWS/BR: Restore edit cursor position, slot 01
Move edit cursor back one measure
Move edit cursor back one measure
Loop points: Set start point
SWS: Set transport repeat state
Record: Set record mode to time selection auto-punch


Custom: Punch in Item Selection
Time selection: Set time selection to items
Loop points: Set loop points to items
Go to start of loop
SWS/BR: Save edit cursor position, slot 01
Time selection: Set start point
Go to end of loop
Time selection: Set end point
Go to end of time selection
Move edit cursor forward one beat
Loop points: Set end point
SWS/BR: Restore edit cursor position, slot 01
Move edit cursor back one measure
Loop points: Set start point
SWS: Set transport repeat state
Record: Set record mode to selected item auto-punch


Custom: Punch In From Here to End of Project
Time selection: Set start point
Move edit cursor back one measure
Move edit cursor back one measure
Loop points: Set start point
Transport: Go to end of project
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Move edit cursor forward one measure (no seek)
Loop points: Set end point
Time selection: Set end point
Go to start of loop
Record: Set record mode to time selection auto-punch
SWS: Unset transport repeat state



Custom: Set Loop On Selected Items and Play
Time selection: Set time selection to items
Xenakios/SWS: Loop and play selected items

[dug dog]

If you'll be comping the entire band, as opposed to comping individual tracks within the performance, you might like the multichannel recording option in which each take of the entire band is recorded as one audio item with multiple channels. Super slick and tidy.

Check out the vid here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9n5AQetfI

Note that, in the vid, Kenny uses the take system but you could just as easily record several different takes, each on its own track, while still having only 1 mixer channel for each recorded channel. You'd simply make duplicates of the first multi-channel track.

[timothys_monster]

I just did a full band recording for a whole album and I have to say that documentation is everything!

I only created the tracks I needed for recording and made everything else with markers.

Example

Song name, take number, comments
The marker would have the following name: "Cassiopeia, Take 2"

The comments I made on a piece of paper while listening to the recording during the performance. They could look like this:

"Cassiopeia, Take 2"
intro: missed HH beat
1st chorus: nice and punchy
transition to 2nd verse: tempo slow down
last chorus: guitar player hit wrong note

After each song together with the band we immediately decided which was the best take overall and I only filled the errors with the other takes.

[Tone Ranger]

This is all SUPER helpful - thank you to everyone who's responded so far! I'm going to check all of the suggestions out fully and see what sticks. Really appreciate you all taking the time to share your approach 🍻

[hopi]

Hey Coachz, would you care to export those actions and also your toolbar and put it all in a zip file and upload to the Stash?

[Coachz]

Here it is:

https://stash.reaper.fm/36454/coachz...nd_actions.zip

[hopi]

thanks but you posted the link to manage the file, which we can't do.. only you can do that

so plz go back to it and in manage view, scroll way down and get the forum link plz????

thanks for doing this as it will save a lot of creating custom actions...

EDIT: here is the download link

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/36454/coac...nd_actions.zip

[Coachz]

updated, sorry and thanks

https://stash.reaper.fm/36454/coachz...nd_actions.zip

[Tone Ranger]

Thanks again Coachz!

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by Tone Ranger

Thanks again Coachz!

You bet ! I have a session coming in half hour and I just click a few buttons and they do the rest. I used to hold up the musicians while "configuring" Reaper for whatever they wanted to do, but now I chill and Reaper does the rest.

Want to record ? No problem. Want to punch in a verse ? Punch time selection. Got to cut some items up ? Razor blade icon. Want to just start recording from here ? Record to end. Also, having pre and post roll is huge. Then Glue, glue glue !

It totally lets the musician get into the groove before the recording and then hear the context of his exit on post roll. Also being able to hear BOTH the recording and the live musician UP to the punch in but ONLY the musician during the punch in is critical. Reaper does all that.

Nap time. :-)

[hopi]

Nap time. :-)

Amen

Thanks again for the upload... nicely done and very sweet set up

EDIT PS: I'm making some tb icons to use in it... if you want them let me know

[Coachz]

I'd love some icons. I also wanted to mention another useful thing. When the punch ins are set, sometimes you want more or less pre-roll or post-roll. An easy way to do it is by dragging the loop point. Set up your mouse modifier like this. I use shift-left drag. You can always use the Edit loop point ignoring snap if you like instead.



I also just added 4 custom actions for doing this.

[Coachz]

Also, check out my takes doc to make sure you are setup the way you want. It's a top rated toilet read ! he he

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15w...Sk0MzG0A2kyLs-

[karbomusic]

TLDR above cuz I'm in a hurry...

Tracking full length takes will make your life better in every imaginable way. IOW, unless the mistake is a complete trainwreck, have the band complete the full song beginning to end a few times - if someone flubs just keep rolling. This means you'll be able to cover most mistakes because if there were three full takes, chances are another take has a better copy and so on which is just a matter of grouping and splitting.

Don't start punching in over mistakes until the above is complete, if you stop and punch every time there is a mistake, that's just going to be a mess and not because of reapers takes system but because it is a very poorly organized workflow. Also stopping on first mistake, unfairly weights more takes towards the front of the song and you'll end up not having what you need towards the end in some unforeseen scenario - again it creates a mess from a pure organizational perspective, have the band play from beginning to end at least 3 times - if they can't do that, even with some mistakes, you have other issues to deal with.

[Tone Ranger]

@hopi Would love to share in those icons too if you're offering, do you have sets uploaded? Thank you!!

@coachz Much appreciated for all of that - that DOC is going to be very handy. Appreciate your generosity! :-)

@karbomusic Thanks for the advice! I don't generally like it when takes stop part way through...and always encourage the players to keep going...but occasionally there's a train wreck and it all comes to a grinding halt. Sometimes there are some great moments in the incomplete take, so I do keep them if something catches my ears. Just wanting to be prepared/know how to deal with the times that happens, without them making session navigation a total nightmare LOL

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Tone Ranger

@karbomusic Thanks for the advice! I don't generally like it when takes stop part way through...and always encourage the players to keep going...but occasionally there's a train wreck and it all comes to a grinding halt. Sometimes there are some great moments in the incomplete take, so I do keep them if something catches my ears. Just wanting to be prepared/know how to deal with the times that happens, without them making session navigation a total nightmare LOL

Sounds like you completely understand already so I think you are good, just thought I'd mention just in case. Good luck!

[timothys_monster]

Yeah, I am totally on karbo's side here.

We did the exact same thing for the tracking of our LP and most of the songs turned out to be one-takes.

Only on one song I did quite a few edits. It comprises about 5 to 6 complete takes and was all recorded without click. But I think it was worth the pain, haha.

Here is a little instrumental preview (no mix, only levels and low-cuts):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zc49n9uync...cking.mp3?dl=0

[hopi]

ok then here's a few icons... use at your own risk

still could make a few more later

https://stash.reaper.fm/theme/2328/c...tb%20icons.rar

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by hopi

ok then here's a few icons... use at your own risk

still could make a few more later

https://stash.reaper.fm/theme/2328/c...tb%20icons.rar

Thanks for the icons but they don't really fit my theme atm. Very creative though.

[hopi]

sorry they don't fit your theme... so it goes...
anyway.. I've added the nudge icons in my own 'artistic' style... if we can call it that...
The link is the same to get the updated
I still have some more to do later and I will

However Coachz... a question on the nudge actions...
Only the nudge left 3 works for me ATM
maybe there are some custom actions missing that you have made?
Or that I can make for myself?
Can you plz say more about the nudge left and right 3, 2, and 1 actions?

EDIT: Ok just updated the icons to ver 3 use 'em as you like

[Coachz]

I setup the nudge values for 1,2,3 using the edit button on this action.



Then I assigned these actions to my nudge buttons. In my settings toolbar I have the above action on a button so I can change nudge settings when needed easily.

[hopi]

ah great... thanks those are some actions I was not even aware of...

nice to have them on board

do you have and use HeDa VIP Trak Inspector?

I ask cuz it might be handy to use to replace or conjunct with your zoom tools

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by hopi

ah great... thanks those are some actions I was not even aware of...

nice to have them on board

do you have and use HeDa VIP Trak Inspector?

I ask cuz it might be handy to use to replace or conjunct with your zoom tools

I don't use a track inspector because I don't want to give up the space it takes. I live in the TCP and have not used the MCP in years and just keep my TCP tracks pushed off to the side so I can see more media items.

[hopi]

ah oic
sounds like a laptop or small display? but I do understand your point...

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by hopi

ah oic
sounds like a laptop or small display? but I do understand your point...

27" here

[ashcat_lt]

I didn't really read the whole thread, so hopefully this isn't too terribly redundant.

I normally do this kind of super old school. I just keep recording. I might hit stop if we take an extended break, but I really just record the whole session straight through. This way different takes of the same song - whether full takes or just parts they decided need to be stiched in - are laid out horizontally across the timeline.

If I want to take parts of different takes and piece them together, regions is a great way to do it. It's maybe not super convenient if you need to audition to decide which take is best for each section out of several, but it has worked well enough for what I usually do. It's very much like just cutting chunks of tape together, except that you can go and adjust the transitions for each track to get to get the most transparent switchover possible.

[Coachz]

If you have a band going from song to song, this script lets you break the recording and start a new one while in record mode. So when the band pauses to go to the next song, hit a button with this custom action and Reaper will create new media items for the new song and let you edit the previous ones while recording continues.

Custom: Record to Next File
Record: Start new files during recording
Record: Add recorded media to project

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

I didn't really read the whole thread, so hopefully this isn't too terribly redundant.

I normally do this kind of super old school. I just keep recording. I might hit stop if we take an extended break, but I really just record the whole session straight through. This way different takes of the same song - whether full takes or just parts they decided need to be stiched in - are laid out horizontally across the timeline.

If I want to take parts of different takes and piece them together, regions is a great way to do it. It's maybe not super convenient if you need to audition to decide which take is best for each section out of several, but it has worked well enough for what I usually do. It's very much like just cutting chunks of tape together, except that you can go and adjust the transitions for each track to get to get the most transparent switchover possible.

yes and that's where ripple editing makes it so easy to push and pull sections around

[hopi]

Originally Posted by Coachz

27" here

there's never enough is there... LoL
awhile back I went to a higher rez display which effectively makes everything smaller therefore more screen real estate

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by hopi

there's never enough is there... LoL
awhile back I went to a higher rez display which effectively makes everything smaller therefore more screen real estate

Res here is 1920x1080
A single 27" is perfect for me because it let's me put my Rokit 8's sideways on each side and I have a table holding it all that is elevated so I can sit with my legs up under the table on a cushioned stool while sitting in a cushy reclining office chair. It's ergonomically ideal for me. Very relaxing and the speakers are less than 2' away from each ear. The sub is also right underneath for phase alignment with the above nearfields. I can mix all day in this position.

[hopi]

sound like you got it wired
2560x1600 here on a 30" dell ...times two
normally those monitors are super pricey but I got two for
deal I could not refuse... tons of screen room due to the rez

I was up at a Costco the other day and saw a tv that I might have to
try out.... screaming hi rez and should work as computer monitor
it was under 300 bucks
after the bills get paid I might just have to test it.... they have a total return policy...

[Coachz]

For me the first requirement was that my ears be at the proper spot for the monitors and so I basically sat in a chair how I like to sit and then moved everything around me to fit. So this is how I'm currently set up. You'll notice some pipes I added on to the bottom of the table to jack it up about 5 in. Also I have no acoustic treatments in my mixes are coming out great. Even the large condenser CAD audio Trion 8000 Tube Mic and Shure sm7b mic don't even pick up early Reflections that cause it to sound like a small room.

I also removed the base from the Monitor and got some angle iron and epoxied that to the back and put a concrete block on the angle iron to hold the monitor in place flat flush with the table.

[ashcat_lt]

Originally Posted by Coachz

yes and that's where ripple editing makes it so easy to push and pull sections around

Well regions kind of do that automagically. Ripple editing freaks me out.


Edit - I should probably say that I don't really do this kind of thing all that often. Most of the bands I record really want to get one solid take of the full band, and if there's a mistake that can't be overlooked, they do the whole thing again. Heck some of the bands just play straight through the set one time and it's exactly what they wanted. There's just been a couple times I think when like they preferred the second take right up to the last chorus, but then the first take was much better or something, a couple times maybe somebody couldn't get the intro or the outro right, so we did those parts separate. I've never had a situation where I had to do the editing part while the band was in the studio. Yet... There's no reason I couldn't do it pretty quickly and have it at least good enough to overdub onto.

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Well regions kind of do that automagically. Ripple editing freaks me out.


Edit - I should probably say that I don't really do this kind of thing all that often. Most of the bands I record really want to get one solid take of the full band, and if there's a mistake that can't be overlooked, they do the whole thing again. Heck some of the bands just play straight through the set one time and it's exactly what they wanted. There's just been a couple times I think when like they preferred the second take right up to the last chorus, but then the first take was much better or something, a couple times maybe somebody couldn't get the intro or the outro right, so we did those parts separate. I've never had a situation where I had to do the editing part while the band was in the studio. Yet... There's no reason I couldn't do it pretty quickly and have it at least good enough to overdub onto.

Yes regions are the bomb for rearranging a song.

[hopi]

look great and clean and easy...
here is how reaper might look on one monitor at higher rez
clk on the image to go to real view

[Coachz]

Originally Posted by hopi

look great and clean and easy...
here is how reaper might look on one monitor at higher rez
clk on the image to go to real view

nice. hey turn of those gridlines ! :-)